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Originally posted by someforumguy

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Loke666 The only way to make open world PvP mainstream is to get rid of the huge gaps in level/power.   It is not getting killed that is the problem here, what most players are upset about is getting killed with zero chanse to defend themselves and needing to grind for a month or more to be able to fight on equal terms with most gankers. Mainstream players love PvP in FPS games but not in MMOs. So if you want open world PvP to be as popular you need to seriously change the progression in MMOs. Levels are the first thing that needs to go, an the regular gear progression is the second.   The alternative is to have down level mechanics like GW2, leveling down everyone to the zone they are in, that would work as well. People wouldnt have to go to zones where people twice their level could gank them then. The problem with this is that many MMO PvP fans wouldnt want these things, but they would work.

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This seems to be a recurring theme. What a typical "Wolf" wants isn't what a typical "Sheep" wants. Even leveling the playing field isn't going to bring open world pvp to the masses though. Think about it, a "Wolf" is going to spend time learning how to fight. A "Sheep" is going to spend time doing everything else, because that's what they want to do. Even with the ridiculous power disparity leveled, the "Wolf" is still going to kill the "Sheep". It's the same scenario as before, except now the "Wolf" gets to brag about their skill in PvP. Again, I'm making some broad statements based on the people I know. They don't want their PvE and their PvP to be mixed together. Half of them don't want the PvP at all. It's a baseline preference in how they want to spend their time. They just don't want the whole open world pvp thing.  

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I think that the wolf and sheep is a bad analogy. Many of those what you might see as 'sheep' could play the wolf, but are simply not interested in it. Simply because they don't enjoy preying on the weak. Instead they rather fight other wolves.

And as for mixing pvp and pve. I can see the benefit of both. Mixed because of open world pvp or both seperated. When seperated people get to enjoy interesting PVE at their leasure. Mixed, they can feel the thrill of having to fight at any moment.

But mixed will never grasp a large audience. In my experience many of the mainstream MMO players aren't even what you would call gamers. They never or rarely played games before MMO's and they are generally bad at it because of it. I can't see those ppl enjoy open world pvp.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

open world pvp isn't something with mass appeal.

 

 not yet.

Back when i played daoc people scoffed at that game and its rvr citing that mainstream doesnt like rvr..daoc only has 100k subscribers (or something like that..might have been 50k..cant remember)...Certainly they were ahead of their time.

yet here we are with basically daoc2 in the form of guild wars 2 will millions of copies sold and every battleground filled to the brim with players to the poit they are complaining about not being able to get into them and every game.

the truth is simple. Players are cheap dynamic content.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bcbully

This first round of next gen games (Swtor, TSW, GW2) really missed the mark by not adding Wpvp, and will suffer because of it.  

 

Cheap player driven content.

No. They would suffer for adding open world PvP.  The vast majority of the modern gaming population doesn't want it, nor would they tolerate it. 

That's not rue at all. Far more people do pvp and pve vs only pve. Look at the three games I listed. Two a suffering now, and we are hearing grumblings about the 3rd all ready. 

This is why there are pvp servers and pve servers. You don't want Wpvp roll on a pve server. Problem solved right? 

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bcbully

This first round of next gen games (Swtor, TSW, GW2) really missed the mark by not adding Wpvp, and will suffer because of it.  

 

Cheap player driven content.

No. They would suffer for adding open world PvP.  The vast majority of the modern gaming population doesn't want it, nor would they tolerate it. 

That's not rue at all. Far more people do pvp and pve vs only pve. Look at the three games I listed. Two a suffering now, and we are hearing grumblings about the 3rd all ready. 

 

Can you link to your source for that?

Originally posted by rungard

I think the holy grail is pvp for the masses. This is the only way to make a dangerous vibrant world.

Look at the part I highlighted.

That's your answer as to why you can't have what you want.

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Originally posted by rungard

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Originally posted by lizardbones   open world pvp isn't something with mass appeal.  

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 not yet.

 

Back when i played daoc people scoffed at that game and its rvr citing that mainstream doesnt like rvr..daoc only has 100k subscribers (or something like that..might have been 50k..cant remember)...Certainly they were ahead of their time.

yet here we are with basically daoc2 in the form of guild wars 2 will millions of copies sold and every battleground filled to the brim with players to the poit they are complaining about not being able to get into them and every game.

the truth is simple. Players are cheap dynamic content.

 

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Originally posted by bcbully

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Originally posted by Wraithone

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Originally posted by bcbully This first round of next gen games (Swtor, TSW, GW2) really missed the mark by not adding Wpvp, and will suffer because of it.     Cheap player driven content.

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No. They would suffer for adding open world PvP.  The vast majority of the modern gaming population doesn't want it, nor would they tolerate it. 

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That's not rue at all. Far more people do pvp and pve vs only pve. Look at the three games I listed. Two a suffering now, and we are hearing grumblings about the 3rd all ready. 

 

This is why there are pvp servers and pve servers. You don't want Wpvp roll on a pve server. Problem solved right? 

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I still think someone should bring back "log in as a mob" like EQ had for a short time.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/play-as-a-monster-in-everquest-2823441

You could earn some kinda points, like graduating up to a new level of mobs, or earn vanity pets like the mobs you play or somethin...

Originally posted by rungard

I think the holy grail is pvp for the masses. This is the only way to make a dangerous vibrant world. At some point players have to be the content. In order to have open world pvp that the masses will accept we need a very good ruleset. You also need to make sure that the pvp itself provides gameplay value to all the players, good and evil.

Here is ehat i would do in a fantasy game to achieve pvp for the masses.  

We start the game with the player choosing a deity. Unlike other games the deity is very important as it is the core of the pvp system. There would be a number of gods to choose from but you could only initially choose “good gods”.

Each of the gods grants certain powers to their followers, so you choose the god that best suits you. When you’ve made your choice you exchange your servitude (go kill evil stuff etc) for special god powers which are based on how valuable *Faction) you are to your god.

So you can earn a gods respect by doing good things in the game (killing monsters, evil players), and likewise you can lose respect for doing things the gods don’t like such as killing good aligned players.

So you start out in the world as good and you have choices to make. You technically can do whatever you want but there are consequences to actions. You will also be equipped with a friendly fire button to prevent accidents.

If you choose to be good you gain ranks in good and with every rank you gain more special advantages. For instance a higher ranking player on the good side might have more resurrection options than a lower rank player, and have more special combat abilities, soulbinding  equipment and inventory protection options  derived from serving that god. The higher rank you are the more options you get. Incentive to be good.

If you choose to be bad and kill players the evil system kicks in. The evil side is a very hard road to which ensures that only the most dedicated players wish to become that. Every “good” player you kill decreases your good pool by a lot and after a rampage or two you become evil. A few things happen when you turn evil. The mistake all mmo’s make is that they allow evil with no consequences and give no few incentives to be “good”.

1. Your race changes to the dark version of the race. So an elf turns into a dark elf. This is so you can be easily differentiated from the good players.
2. You can no longer access anything on the good side and are KOS to all good guards. This is to make your life more challenging and make sense in the game world.
3. Your professions skillset becomes the evil version (paladin becomes a shadowknight). Your skillset becomes less protective and more offensive by default.
4. You have no god to resurrect you, so you have to find a god before you die to enable this. If you die before finding one, one will find you at random. (pure challenge)
5. Nothing is free with evil. Everything requires a toll of some sort. There has to be severe tolls on evil to ensure there aren’t too many players. It is supposed to be difficult.
6. Your equipment and posessions are not as well protected as your good counterparts. You trade protection for power by becoming evil. Evil is not for wussies, its for the hardcore who love this kind of stuff. Of course only the truly hardcore will like that they have less protections than their good counterparts.

Like the good side above evil also has ranks and you can improve some of these issues above with gaining favor with an evil god, but evil gods generally offer power and don’t offer much charity.

Evil is designed to be hard, outnumbered and difficult to play. Ideally we want to keep the number of evil players as a small proportion of the total players. We also want the evil players to become part of the gameplay for good players….by tracking and hunting them.

The problem with all mmos who feature world pvp is that they fail to properly challenge hardcore pvpers and properly protect pveers.  This model fixes that issue...in my opinion.

How would you change openworld pvp to make it palatable for the masses?

Originally posted by lizardbones


In GW2 and in any segregated pvp setup, players are not giving up their ability to choose to PvP in their PvE game. In games where that choice isn't available inside the game, players make that choice when they decide to purchase or not purchase the game.

 

This. If people have choice, overwhelming majority will choose NOT to engage in world PvP. They choose a game where they are not harrassed and hunted.

This is also partly why UO is never coming back.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by lizardbones


In GW2 and in any segregated pvp setup, players are not giving up their ability to choose to PvP in their PvE game. In games where that choice isn't available inside the game, players make that choice when they decide to purchase or not purchase the game.

 

This. If people have choice, overwhelming majority will choose NOT to engage in world PvP. They choose a game where they are not harrassed and hunted.

This is also partly why UO is never coming back.

 I would accomidate that as well in the system.  I would call it the order of pacification or something and becoming part of the order basically turns off your pvp switch. With a class system like GW2 it would work fine. You would need to do a lengthy quest to change it back. Likewise there would be order of the eagle, which would be the evil hunters, and upon entering that order you lose  few protections but gain tracking and more anti evil abilities. Thee would be a couple of other orders to suit all tastes.

it can all be accomplished within the context of the game. Seperation is the easiest answer..but not the right answer.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bcbully

This first round of next gen games (Swtor, TSW, GW2) really missed the mark by not adding Wpvp, and will suffer because of it.  

 

Cheap player driven content.

No. They would suffer for adding open world PvP.  The vast majority of the modern gaming population doesn't want it, nor would they tolerate it. 

That's not rue at all. Far more people do pvp and pve vs only pve. Look at the three games I listed. Two a suffering now, and we are hearing grumblings about the 3rd all ready. 

 

This is why there are pvp servers and pve servers. You don't want Wpvp roll on a pve server. Problem solved right? 

Very true. But thats seldom enough for some types. It seriously cuts down on their selection of potential victims. ^^  Open world PvP (with optional PvE servers) is why I've tried some of the Asian imports.  Absent that option, I simply take my time and money to another game. 

The question was: What would YOU do to make open World PVP blah, blah, blah-

Some people seeem to take that as an invitation to explain why THEY wouldnt play a PVP game. Or why it "wouldnt work" (Cost , LOL- Cmon these games cost LESS to make today once you get rid of cut scenes and voice overs)

Anyhow- You dont like PVP, YOU wont spend money on it It wont work you say- We dont CARE. This was a thread for discussion of how it COULD work, thanbks. Derailing because YOU dont like to PVP is not an excuse. 

Originally posted by lizardbones

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Originally posted by Loke666
The only way to make open world PvP mainstream is to get rid of the huge gaps in level/power.

It is not getting killed that is the problem here, what most players are upset about is getting killed with zero chanse to defend themselves and needing to grind for a month or more to be able to fight on equal terms with most gankers.

Mainstream players love PvP in FPS games but not in MMOs.

So if you want open world PvP to be as popular you need to seriously change the progression in MMOs. Levels are the first thing that needs to go, an the regular gear progression is the second.

The alternative is to have down level mechanics like GW2, leveling down everyone to the zone they are in, that would work as well. People wouldnt have to go to zones where people twice their level could gank them then.

The problem with this is that many MMO PvP fans wouldnt want these things, but they would work.

This seems to be a recurring theme. What a typical "Wolf" wants isn't what a typical "Sheep" wants.

Even leveling the playing field isn't going to bring open world pvp to the masses though. Think about it, a "Wolf" is going to spend time learning how to fight. A "Sheep" is going to spend time doing everything else, because that's what they want to do. Even with the ridiculous power disparity leveled, the "Wolf" is still going to kill the "Sheep". It's the same scenario as before, except now the "Wolf" gets to brag about their skill in PvP.

Again, I'm making some broad statements based on the people I know. They don't want their PvE and their PvP to be mixed together. Half of them don't want the PvP at all. It's a baseline preference in how they want to spend their time. They just don't want the whole open world pvp thing.

Yes, but I think a lot of the reason why they dont want open world PvP is based on how the standard MMO mechanics are made.

It is more or less made to grief players who have zero chanse of fighting back, if you solved that you would have a lot easier time introducing an open world PvP game.

Most griefers are not really wolfs though, more hyenas and many of them dont want an even fight at all. Heck, they might die. If they indeed wanted an even fight they wouldnt grief noobs in the first place.

Even this system would not please all PvE fans though but it would open up for one open world PvP game large enough to compete with at least medium sized PvE games. Now I cant think of any open world PvP game besides Eve with more than maybe 50Kplayers.

Originally posted by rungard

 The problem with all mmos who feature world pvp is that they fail to properly challenge hardcore pvpers and properly protect pveers.  This model fixes that issue...in my opinion.

How would you change openworld pvp to make it palatable for the masses?

100% wrong.   Don't build a " karma system ".     They don't work in the real world and they certainly won't work in a virtual world.

EvE is a good example of an open world system that works.

Originally posted by Mari2k

hardcore is not open world pvp...

 

hardcore is arena pvp like in wow. The top arena teams of wow would pwn everyone no matter what mmo.

I hope to god you are joking. Loling IRL....

The player can't lose anything personal to them. However there needs to group objects that people can set up in the world, either a base around a mine or farming area that can be conquered or destroyed. There has to be a good reason to fight other players, there is alot of people who like to pvp.. they just aren't confident enough to join the hardcore group where death could mean losing items and xp.

Alot of eye candy, the game would have to have the appeal to keep people hunting for that shiny piece. Something nice to look at while they chat it up with friends and hunt in the fields.  A strong social interface, hubs where people can meet without fear of death.

I would prefer some loss to characters on death but it'll never make it big if there is that fear of losing something on your character that ISN'T their choice.