I think a lot of impressions came from the beta's.  But what you need to remember is people get a gut feeling about a game, their main gripes may be combat/animations.  But overall we are just not feeling it.  You can't just narrow it down to 2 issues.   I thought the opening to the game was atrocious, I probably made my mind up from that first cut scene ... that went on forever (hope that has changed).  You can't pinpoint why a game fails or why a game succeeds.  If you could then game development would be easy.   But one thing is for sure first impressions have a dramatic effect on peoples overall perceptions. Those impressions are normally made from things like opening sequences, initial animations and first attempts at combat.

The only "problem" with TSW is that it's a niche game and definately not for everyone.

TSW is a thinker and people can't handle that :j

Originally posted by fallenlords

I think a lot of impressions came from the beta's.  But what you need to remember is people get a gut feeling about a game, their main gripes may be combat/animations.  But overall we are just not feeling it.  You can't just narrow it down to 2 issues.   I thought the opening to the game was atrocious, I probably made my mind up from that first cut scene ... that went on forever (hope that has changed).  You can't pinpoint why a game fails or why a game succeeds.  If you could then game development would be easy.   But one thing is for sure first impressions have a dramatic effect on peoples overall perceptions. Those impressions are normally made from things like opening sequences, initial animations and first attempts at combat.

 I agree with this, well said..:)

Initiual gaming experience is important..

But to judge a game based on a beta should basically be forbidden, even if that is impossible :)

Animations haven't changed much since late beta. Sure, some of them were improved, but overall, it looks pretty much the same. I can't explain why they look bad to me, they just do. They look stiff, twitchy and unrealistic.

As for movement while shooting and other similar things, I don't think they matter much TBH. As someone who loves both turn-based strategy games and action games, I don't care how slow or fast combat is. What matters is how interesting the abilities you get are and frankly, what I've seen of TSW's skills (all inner wheel AR, Pistol and Blade skills) is boring. Maybe it gets better later on, but first impressions are, indeed, important and that's the first-ish impression I got based on playing through Kingsmouth and parts of Savage Coast. I think TERA's combat is mediocre for the same reason, but TERA is also very restrictive build wise.

Sorry, but the animations are certainly not "well done".

They are rigid, and often not fluid at all. Best example is just, try jumping. That shows you the deeper issue with the animations – they just don't "connect".

It extends into combat. I don't think the combat is bad, but the animations and overall feel just isn't there. It's jarring; I can't really put my finger on it, it just feels like there is an ever slight delay to everything. Like my hits don't connect with the target well, it just feels like i hit my trigger and the mob hit animation simply comes too late. Or I hit roll and there's just that milisecond too much before the character responds.

You might not notice it, which is fine, but a lot of people do even tho they might not be able to really tell you what it is that irks them.

The production value of TSW just isn't there. I love the setting, the soundtrack, the quests, it's what I've always wanted... but I just can't commit to the game when I constantly feel like I have to work against my character, ruining the immersion for me. It's why I did not buy it after Beta and it's why I've only done the trial post launch.

I really hope Funcom is going to try and improve it. I'd sub as a Lifer in a heartbeat, but I'm not going to get my hopes up since Funcom is hurting, and I can't think of an MMO that ever managed to improve these things post launch.

The perception of "disconnect" between your character and the world is often something deeply rooted in the engine, and I don't see Funcom having the resources to do anything about it. Alltho I think it is the single biggest issue that will keep the game from growing in the long run.

These days, if you're asking for a sub, the production value has to feel like a AAA title.

Originally posted by thark

Seriousy, bad combat ?? Has these players even played this game more than a few hours while having a couple of abilities, and unlocked 0.5 % of the skillwheel ?

I think this is a pure case of rumour mill , players started to see that there was not much to complain about in this game, and just because someome felt the combat was abit lackluster , they now use it as a standard reply ..

And..Yes I have tried TERA, yes it has good MMO combat, but the diffrence here is that you are frozen in the spot when triggering skills..While in TSW you can move at all times..I think in some ways its better to be able to move all the time..

2. The Animations !

WHat  is wrong with the animations, I most certainly can't see anything wrong with them..Infact I see very well done animations. Some used on several skills, is maybe the only complaint here..

 

If in my opinion a game is not fun suring the first hour why should I play it any longer ?

and yes the animations are just horrible, standing still the game looks great, but as soon as you move it just goes to crap. Amazing in itself  since the animations in AoC were fantastic

BTW the public has voted with it's wallet and seems like most agree that the game is really not all that

The explanation is rather simple.  First though, let me break it down into the four groups I believe you're seeing the complaints from:

1. Those without a preference for another game that simply do not like them.
2. Those with a preference for another game that simply do not like them.
3. Those with a preference for another game that simply do not like them because of their preference for the other game.
4. Those without a preference for another game that simply do not like Funcom.

It's easy to dismiss the last two.  It's really easy to dismiss the last two groups.

On the other hand, you can't dismiss the first two groups.  It's a subjective thing.  They're not wrong for thinking what they do.  At the same time, you're not wrong for thinking what you do.  It's subjective.  There is no right nor wrong.  It's chocolate vs. vanilla...that's all.  It's not factual.

Personally, I liked both the combat and the animations.  I found them to be more real than in most games where they come off as a silly kind of choreographed dance than actual combat.  It's not meant to be pretty.

That being said though, I did have an issue with the animations that was more about the models themselves - clipping.  I can't stand clipping.  It really stood out like a sore thumb to me in TSW, because of how well everything else was done.  Watching the toon put their fingers through their collar to scratch their chin or brush their hair was unbelievably annoying.  Like having the perfect cheeseburger...almost perfect cheeseburger...but there being that one little thing that's off that ruins the whole thing.

But yeah, in the end - it's just going to be a subjective matter for the legitimate complaints - and well - there's no getting around that, nor should there be...different strokes for different folks.

In fairness to the haters, the combat and animations in early beta were quite rough. But they were greatly improved by launch, which is how I know many of the critics hadn't actually played the game for a long time.

I agree with OP that combat and animations today are fine. The price of combat on the move is disconnected upper and lower torso, which makes some combat and animation elements look strange. But I'd rather have combat in motion and frankly, I don't watch my toon fighting; I'm too busy fighting for that.

Originally posted by thark

Why is it that ...

When people complain about TSW it's always these 2 issues .

1 Bad Combat !

The Combat in TSW is absolutly not bad, you can move while shoting, roll..The only thing that reminds me of classic MMO combat is the "TAB targeting" But the skillwheel is what makes TSW really stand out and the ability to alter your strategy at all times makes it even better.

Seriousy, bad combat ?? Has these players even played this game more than a few hours while having a couple of abilities, and unlocked 0.5 % of the skillwheel ?

I think this is a pure case of rumour mill , players started to see that there was not much to complain about in this game, and just because someome felt the combat was abit lackluster , they now use it as a standard reply ..

And..Yes I have tried TERA, yes it has good MMO combat, but the diffrence here is that you are frozen in the spot when triggering skills..While in TSW you can move at all times..I think in some ways its better to be able to move all the time..

2. The Animations !

WHat  is wrong with the animations, I most certainly can't see anything wrong with them..Infact I see very well done animations. Some used on several skills, is maybe the only complaint here..

Please enlighten me to why TSW has these 2 issues !!

The combat and animations weren't the reasons I stopped playing. Where do you keep getting these generalisations from?

Originally posted by Thenextbigthing

Originally posted by thark

Why is it that ...

When people complain about TSW it's always these 2 issues .

1 Bad Combat !

The Combat in TSW is absolutly not bad, you can move while shoting, roll..The only thing that reminds me of classic MMO combat is the "TAB targeting" But the skillwheel is what makes TSW really stand out and the ability to alter your strategy at all times makes it even better.

Seriousy, bad combat ?? Has these players even played this game more than a few hours while having a couple of abilities, and unlocked 0.5 % of the skillwheel ?

I think this is a pure case of rumour mill , players started to see that there was not much to complain about in this game, and just because someome felt the combat was abit lackluster , they now use it as a standard reply ..

And..Yes I have tried TERA, yes it has good MMO combat, but the diffrence here is that you are frozen in the spot when triggering skills..While in TSW you can move at all times..I think in some ways its better to be able to move all the time..

2. The Animations !

WHat  is wrong with the animations, I most certainly can't see anything wrong with them..Infact I see very well done animations. Some used on several skills, is maybe the only complaint here..

Please enlighten me to why TSW has these 2 issues !!

 

The combat and animations weren't the reasons I stopped playing. Where do you keep getting these generalisations from?

 Hmmm....I didn't say you stopped playing !!

II said It was the most common complain when talking about TSW , wich is odd considering the animations and combat (IMO atleast) is good..

Originally posted by JaedorThe price of combat on the move is disconnected upper and lower torso, which makes some combat and animation elements look strange. But I'd rather have combat in motion and frankly, I don't watch my toon fighting; I'm too busy fighting for that.

aha !!! that is what it is, thanks for that post. BTW I did play that free spell they offered after release and to me I stil thought my character moved like a zombie but could not pin the exact why of it down. Oh and my toon fights and moves in GW2 and does not have that issue. my GW2 thief has a move called the death blossom that just rocks. AoC's animations if I remember correct also looked a lot better. I do recall thinking the animations in Conan were better than LoTRO's. Too bad FC can't seem to get it all together in a single game. Take parts of SO, blend in some AoC and tos in a splash of TSW and they would have a hit game

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by JaedorThe price of combat on the move is disconnected upper and lower torso, which makes some combat and animation elements look strange. But I'd rather have combat in motion and frankly, I don't watch my toon fighting; I'm too busy fighting for that.

aha !!! that is what it is, thanks for that post. BTW I did play that free spell they offered after release and to me I stil thought my character moved like a zombie but could not pin the exact why of it down. Oh and my toon fights and moves in GW2 and does not have that issue. my GW2 thief has a move called the death blossom that just rocks. AoC's animations if I remember correct also looked a lot better. I do recall thinking the animations in Conan were better than LoTRO's. Too bad FC can't seem to get it all together in a single game. Take parts of SO, blend in some AoC and tos in a splash of TSW and they would have a hit game

Many games (including GW2 and I think WoW) combine animations, which is why their movement and combat look pretty natural. Most notable examples are Rockstar's latest games like GTA4 and Max Payne 3, which use the absolutely brilliant Euphoria engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria_engine) and, of course, you can move while shooting in all of them. The system TSW uses is simpler. Funcom tried to make it look like a necessity, but that's not entirely true. It's most likely used for budget reasons. Making Max Payne 3 -quality animations for all of TSW's moves would cost a lot. GW2 took some shotcuts, too, but it seems to at least not keep the body parts separate.

First of all , I love TSW.

The Atmosphere and the world graphics are top notch.  I also am fine wiht the combat and animations and they don't really detract from the game (for me)

That said, I too am taking a break to play GW2, and when compared side by side, the GW2 combat / animations ARE much more fluid and the graphics "shiny" more so than TSW.

Also the Char models *could* be better.

So yeah, nothing game breaking imo, but I do see the slight difference when compared to GW2.

Dale

Originally posted by Robsolf

Combat takes excruciatingly long, and given that you have to move in order to survive, adds occur often since mobs are overcrowded and aggro too easily for a game where movement matters.  In a movement combat game, you can't pack an area with mobs the same way you can with a stand and click game, especially when many of those mobs have 10 meter AoE's that you absolutely must avoid to survive. 

 

Yeh, combat is long if your build is "wrong" or focused on healing or tanking. Just because you have mutltitude of possibilities of building your char, doesn't mean that all combination would be equally good.

With the right build, you can blast through mobs within a few seconds, --- even if they're so called "nightmare" mobs that drop signets. You can deal 1-2k DPS even while soloing and regular mobs have 4k to 8k life (nightmare 10-16k). 

This numbers applies to final zone of course, with 10+Q gear, but the same applies to starting areas as well.

Combat in TSW is actually extremely fast, or extremely slow, depending on your build. Saying it's slow just means your build was slow.

I was QL9/10 pistol/elemental.

Combat is definitely NOT slow or "boring."

Though I did get my ass kicked alot in bad gear until I learned how to abuse terrain and every possible option available to me.

Originally posted by Thillian
In my opinion, TSW offers one of the best MMORPG-combat. Animations, on the other hand, are somewhat disappointing after the fantastic animations Funcom had in Age of Conan. But they aren't THAT bad as some tries to portray them. 

seriously when I played I had a hard time distinguishing my toon from teh zombies

I've been waiting for this game to come out for ages. I was really excited when it did. 

At first I didn't like it very much. There were several things that bothered me, but I didn't want to give up immediately. One thing that really annoyed me was the passiveness of my char in the cut-scenes. I really liked it that you had to think to finish quests though.

After a while I started to enjoy the game. I didn't rush it, but after about a month I have finished the personal story and all the maps. For a while I was repeating quests so I can get more of the decks, but after I got about 3 of them I didn't see the point anymore.

I did a lot of pvp, but not enough to keep me in the game. I made a second char, but noticed that apart from the decks (and the very few quests you got from your HQ)  there was absolutely no difference between the Templars, Dragons and Illuminati.

My problem on the whole was that there is just not enough content. It's a great game, but once you finished there is nothing else to do but grind.