I think the holy grail is pvp for the masses. This is the only way to make a dangerous vibrant world. At some point players have to be the content. In order to have open world pvp that the masses will accept we need a very good ruleset. You also need to make sure that the pvp itself provides gameplay value to all the players, good and evil.

Here is ehat i would do in a fantasy game to achieve pvp for the masses.  

We start the game with the player choosing a deity. Unlike other games the deity is very important as it is the core of the pvp system. There would be a number of gods to choose from but you could only initially choose “good gods”.

Each of the gods grants certain powers to their followers, so you choose the god that best suits you. When you’ve made your choice you exchange your servitude (go kill evil stuff etc) for special god powers which are based on how valuable *Faction) you are to your god.

So you can earn a gods respect by doing good things in the game (killing monsters, evil players), and likewise you can lose respect for doing things the gods don’t like such as killing good aligned players.

So you start out in the world as good and you have choices to make. You technically can do whatever you want but there are consequences to actions. You will also be equipped with a friendly fire button to prevent accidents.

If you choose to be good you gain ranks in good and with every rank you gain more special advantages. For instance a higher ranking player on the good side might have more resurrection options than a lower rank player, and have more special combat abilities, soulbinding  equipment and inventory protection options  derived from serving that god. The higher rank you are the more options you get. Incentive to be good.

If you choose to be bad and kill players the evil system kicks in. The evil side is a very hard road to which ensures that only the most dedicated players wish to become that. Every “good” player you kill decreases your good pool by a lot and after a rampage or two you become evil. A few things happen when you turn evil. The mistake all mmo’s make is that they allow evil with no consequences and give no few incentives to be “good”.

1. Your race changes to the dark version of the race. So an elf turns into a dark elf. This is so you can be easily differentiated from the good players.
2. You can no longer access anything on the good side and are KOS to all good guards. This is to make your life more challenging and make sense in the game world.
3. Your professions skillset becomes the evil version (paladin becomes a shadowknight). Your skillset becomes less protective and more offensive by default.
4. You have no god to resurrect you, so you have to find a god before you die to enable this. If you die before finding one, one will find you at random. (pure challenge)
5. Nothing is free with evil. Everything requires a toll of some sort. There has to be severe tolls on evil to ensure there aren’t too many players. It is supposed to be difficult.
6. Your equipment and posessions are not as well protected as your good counterparts. You trade protection for power by becoming evil. Evil is not for wussies, its for the hardcore who love this kind of stuff. Of course only the truly hardcore will like that they have less protections than their good counterparts.

Like the good side above evil also has ranks and you can improve some of these issues above with gaining favor with an evil god, but evil gods generally offer power and don’t offer much charity.

Evil is designed to be hard, outnumbered and difficult to play. Ideally we want to keep the number of evil players as a small proportion of the total players. We also want the evil players to become part of the gameplay for good players….by tracking and hunting them.

The problem with all mmos who feature world pvp is that they fail to properly challenge hardcore pvpers and properly protect pveers.  This model fixes that issue...in my opinion.

How would you change openworld pvp to make it palatable for the masses?

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

I agree with this.

Gun to my head though I would say I would try to show the average player that an intelligent opponent is more rewarding than a AI that just runs straight toward you and fights to the death. I just consider open world PVP gangkers to be intellignet AI that wants my loots, and will actually wait until they have an advantage to attack me much like a real highwayman might.

Originally posted by rungard

I think the holy grail is pvp for the masses. This is the only way to make a dangerous vibrant world. At some point players have to be the content. ...

But the masses do not want a "dangerous vibrant world". They want a fairyland where they can feel epic and heroic while pressing "I win" buttons.

And if they are competitive they want no "dangerous vibrant world" too, then they want a tightly controlled "fair" fight where the winner gets a pat on the back and a reward and the loser loses nothing and gets a slighty shorter pat on the back.

Mainstream and openworld PvP are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

This^

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

couldnt have said it better myself.  WEll said sir, well said

Originally posted by Larsa

Originally posted by rungard

I think the holy grail is pvp for the masses. This is the only way to make a dangerous vibrant world. At some point players have to be the content. ...

But the masses do not want a "dangerous vibrant world". They want a fairyland where they can feel epic and heroic while pressing "I win" buttons.

And if they are competitive they want no "dangerous vibrant world" too, then they want a tightly controlled "fair" fight where the winner gets a pat on the back and a reward and the loser loses nothing and gets a slighty shorter pat on the back.

Mainstream and openworld PvP are mutually exclusive.

And as long as those games are populated with players like ^^ it will stay that way.

Open world pvp just isn't "main stream". It doesn't matter what happens with the pvp itself. The only way to make PvP "main stream" is to make it 100% avoidable. If players cannot build themselves a safe place or cannot somehow become safe from PvP while still participating in the content they want, then a large number of players will not play the game.

Do you mean FFA PVP or open world PvP? Because Dark Age of Camelot already perfected PvP for the masses.

For open world PvP, I'd essentially just create a massive amount of things for players to do that aren't PvP related, like in UO, give them a sort of semi safe buffer zone to do them in, like Eve, and make the penalty for player killing really tough. It'll be an active choice to go red, and it'll be a hard life, but you can do it if you want.

But PvP will never go mainstream because no publisher with any money will back a nonWoW clone, if the last 8 years are to be believed.

The problem is most FFA games end up Topheavy with assholes and griefers... They turn into gankfests.

As has been stated, the game would need tons of non combat and non PVP activities. BUT also a very harsh penalty (potential) to PKers. There should be RISK for them being a murderer. I have always liked the idea of having a Murdercount which hits a certain point (i.e. 4 murders in 24 hours of GAMETIME) the PKer automatically goes into a mode for a couple hours where IF KILLED they permanently die.

This allows people the CHOICE of being a PKer but with real consequence and risk.

Personally I love FFA games and am n ot a PVPer (I enjoy the danger) but lately these games are becoming just "death match" ga,mes based on attracting players who only wish to mindlessly destroy others fun.

EDIT: The problem with FFA (these days) is that these games cater to the "wolves" and end up chasing all the "sheep" away . Then (as you know) all Wolves and no Sheep = Very bored Wolves.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

True ^^

HAve you checked out Darkfall? Sure the game looks like it is going down hill, but when 2.0 releases I am sure all your dreams will come true. It will be pretty hardcore.

[mod edit]

Repopulation? maybe??????

I dont know Bro- But our game is coming. It might take a few years but the staleness of the copycat themepark market is FINALLY starting to be evident to many... Give it a couple years for a AAA company to get their head out of their ass and realize it as well.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Jonoku
[mod edit]

Repopulation? maybe??????

I dont know Bro- But our game is coming. It might take a few years but the staleness of the copycat themepark market is FINALLY starting to be evident to many... Give it a couple years for a AAA company to get their head out of their ass and realize it as well.

from what I hear repopulation doesn't have good pvp, thats what I hear so I have no idea if thats true or not.

Originally posted by Topherpunch

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

True ^^

HAve you checked out Darkfall? Sure the game looks like it is going down hill, but when 2.0 releases I am sure all your dreams will come true. It will be pretty hardcore.

Yes but DF is more of a FPS in a persistant fantasy Universe.

Thats part of the problem. FFA games today are either buggy and broken as hell (Like MO) or are merely FPS games MADE to primarily PVP (not PVP being a PART of the game)- If a game is PVP centric it becomes "about PVP" rather than having a good PVP system to compliment tyhe game as a whole (in other words PVP IS the game and I would rather play Counterstrike for that)

Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

If you are truly hardcore you don't want hardcore Open world PvP games to go mainstream. When an Open world PvP game goes mainstream you end up with a lot of nerfs to take out the brutality of the game. I don't mean like the Tram/Fel split I mean like item insurance, no perma deaths, no full looting, reds get to go to town still, no jail system... 

Mainstream is simply bad for hardcore open world PvP. 

This^

With bells on.

I read as far as the bit about avoiding friendly fire and...uh...stopped.  Right there, to me - that kills your fourth word in the thread title.

I glimpsed some other replies, and basically - no, you don't want to try to bring it to the mainstream.  They don't want it, we all know that - trying to bring them into it only results in a game that nobody wants to play.

Wouldn't it be better to take a look at making a game that tries to provide something for all the different folks that want it?  They don't agree, you no - right?  Even the folks that want it, want different things when they want it.  Wouldn't it be better to look at what they want - design the game from that angle?

You have to scale investment to the amount of money the game will bring in.   You will pretty much have to accept some limitations on your game world, be they size, graphics, worldtype, or whatever.   Most open world PVP players overestimate the numbers of people who want to play that style, imo. 

That sort of gaming also brings out the gankers and greifers, whose only real game is to make someone feel bad.  While only a small percentage of the populace, they can drive away large numbers of customers otherwise willing to help pay for that game.

You can carry on with your 'Build it and they will come!' dreams, if you want, but just examine the arguments that show up about the 'right way to do it'.   Very fractured player base. 

Or, you can all just go play Salem.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

I read as far as the bit about avoiding friendly fire and...uh...stopped.  Right there, to me - that kills your fourth word in the thread title.

I glimpsed some other replies, and basically - no, you don't want to try to bring it to the mainstream.  They don't want it, we all know that - trying to bring them into it only results in a game that nobody wants to play.

Wouldn't it be better to take a look at making a game that tries to provide something for all the different folks that want it?  They don't agree, you no - right?  Even the folks that want it, want different things when they want it.  Wouldn't it be better to look at what they want - design the game from that angle?

 you should of kept reading. Hardcore is there, its just for the wolves though, the sheep have easymode as long as they remain sheep.. Of course being a wolf makes you more powerful by default than your average sheep. Their powers are devoted to protecting themselves from wolves.