Originally posted by bcbully

Once we got our sever first and world ranking, we began competing against the world on an individual level. World ranking in dps, world rankings in healing and tanking. 

Personal progression.

We did too.  Always a kewl new trophy at the end of the treadmill.

That was at the end of BC, when the raiding guilds raided each other for quality players (easier than carrying a newb through atunements); too much work replacing the defectors and retirees, eventually.

The best endgame is one that fits into that specifc game's design philosophy, not what is considered "popular" or "traditional".

Least that's what I can understand. How exactly you reach such a thing is beyond me.

Originally posted by Enigmatus

How exactly you reach such a thing is beyond me.

EQ had an answer.  DaOC had an answer.  UO had (kinda) a third.

The mmo universe hasn't really advanced all that much since.

Invent an alternative that works as well as raiding or PvP, and you'll likely make a fortune.  But an awful lot of people have been pondering that problem for a very long time.  The best we've got is a vast variety of Partial Answers, and the two main ones.

Good "end game" is no end game. Think about it!

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by bcbully

Once we got our sever first and world ranking, we began competing against the world on an individual level. World ranking in dps, world rankings in healing and tanking. 

Personal progression.

We did too.  Always a kewl new trophy at the end of the treadmill.

That was at the end of BC, when the raiding guilds raided each other for quality players (easier than carrying a newb through atunements); too much work replacing the defectors and retirees, eventually.

The trophy/gear didn't matter at that point, atleast not for us. Pass, pass, pass. It was me the warlock vs  the mages in my guild. We pushed each other to truly incredible levels. 

I went from a newb trying to run from Darn to IF to a top 20 world parsing warlock. Top 10 tanks and healers came along. The hard work paid off.

I enjoyed raiding in EQ because you did it to see more content, not to "get all the best gear available". 

You ran WToV so that you could go to NToV and experience the big named dragons. It was a great feeling to finally step into NToV and learn the encounters.

You raided Ssra temple to obtain key items for the boss of that zone, as well as the next zone Vex Thal. You obtained gear during these raids to help you survive the next tier of content.

WoW is similar, but it did one thing very wrong.  WoW is gated by content patches.  No matter how many times you run Dragon Soul, you won't progress further until WoW releases something new. 

And in GW2s end game, if you don't PVP... well GW2 doesn't have PVE endgame. Farming for legendary / exotic weapons is all about spending real cash to buy gold in the store. Literally need 500+ gold to obtain a legendary. The only one close atm purchased 500k gems to turn into xp/craft/karma boosts and gold.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Originally posted by Creslin321

I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

Sorry perhaps I should not comment in this topic as I aint playing GW2, but....

End game for me would be a full player run economy, including item decay so there alway's be demand.

The so called endgame in today's MMORPG are so incredible limited as it consist mostly out of combat, combat and more combat. Nothing wrong with having combat in a MMORPG as it should definitly be in a MMORPG. But common this genre should be so far beyond just a combat game that it ammeses me to see that most current MMORPG turn into simple multiplayer FPS type games.

But then rises the question can the niche old school player substain the masses of today, cause due to my own experiance the old school player has the patience to slowly build him/her self up on the economy ladder where the current new gen player will complain a week after release that the ingame economy sucks....

So hmmmm the question is rather difficult to answer with so many different type of players, because what I asume to be a great end game I am sure many would not like it as the masses still show they go for more combat oriented MMO's. Still glad they have plenty of that but what about the old minority, those of us who truly grew up with this genre from it's beginning? Though not speaking for ALL old school MMORPG players but do feel due to my ingame experiance with ingame friends that there is a minority crowed out there that would like a MMORPG to go far beyond just being a combat online game.

I disagree.  I think its fine to have a smattering of non-combat activities but IMO, combat should always be 90% of the endgame content.

Some of the non-combat endgame I like are:

• Player Housing
• Exploration based activites like jumping puzzles, hard to reach areas or dynamic areas that change based on the fauna and weather
• politics and meaningful factions
• robust guild structures such as Asherons Call Allegiance system which utilyzes patrons and vassals

• Huge open worlds with hundreds of places to explore with rare and differing bosses/mini-bosses such as castles, keeps, villas, non-linear dungeons, caves, grottos and places you might actually find something nasty.  At the end have the boss drop a key to his treasure chest.
• Dynamic Asherons Call/Diablo style loot systems
• multiple paths of progression
• open ended skill system with the ability to create the style of gameplay that suits the player (balance be damnded)
• multi layer questing system that takes groups (i.e. plural groups) a while to finish that includes activities such as puzzle solving, jumping, traps and split paths that promote unity and teamwork.
• good old fashion open ended dungeons that promote teamwork and unity

Meaningful player ownership within the game world.

Meaningful player control over the game world.

Without players having a stake in the game world they are just tourists and will act like tourists.

Player politics and open pvp are essential for me to a good end game. Scripted content isn't a long term challenge, its what mmo's are trending towards. If I wanted that i'd stick to single player games.

The reason I got into MMO's was PvP.. now we have the all bark crowd and we can't thrust a sword down their throats to stop their yelping.

Well I can tell you one thing, GW2 should not be on anyones list of 'good end game'.

 The biggest thing out of everything that should be placed at the front lines is 'Community'. GW2 has no community. I do quests mindlessly, I do events mindlessly and I do dungeons/pvp/raids mindlessly. Theres just no incentive to form bonds with players. The game pushes for anonimity and that is where it hurts. It's not just GW2's fault. Every MMO (including WOW) has devolved into this mindless idiocy. Even non MMORPG's are dropping 'community' and trying to WOW (no pun) the masses with this concept of instant gratification at the cost of socialization.

Where the hell is the community in these games? I might as well be playing a single player RPG.

Originally posted by halflife25
For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.

Hey there is a game coming out for you from what I have read.  Called Neverwinter.  Anyways my problem with GW2 end game is that it comes off as very socialist to me.  Everyone has equal gear regardless of how hard you have worked for it etc etc.  Maybe I'm a dying breed of American but I like my games where you get what you work for.  If I can't do explorer mode dungeons then I don't deserve to have as good of gear as people that can do them.  Oh and not seeing player names of oponent in pvp is just stupid, makes it feel like your not even doing pvp(though that really isn't endgame and is off topic).

Originally posted by stratasaurus

Oh and not seeing player names of oponent in pvp is just stupid, makes it feel like your not even doing pvp(though that really isn't endgame and is off topic).

I'd say that's one of the biggest issues with the endgame. In PvP you want to become the best and be known for it, and maintain that title. Except in GW2 no one can even see your name. In all the medieval and fantasy movies and such, everyone is always saying "remember my name". That's the main goal of a lot of their lives: to be known, to have a legacy. But not in GW2.

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Originally posted by Creslin321 So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  

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Originally posted by Coated

Well I can tell you one thing, GW2 should not be on anyones list of 'good end game'.

 The biggest thing out of everything that should be placed at the front lines is 'Community'. GW2 has no community. I do quests mindlessly, I do events mindlessly and I do dungeons/pvp/raids mindlessly. Theres just no incentive to form bonds with players. The game pushes for anonimity and that is where it hurts. It's not just GW2's fault. Every MMO (including WOW) has devolved into this mindless idiocy. Even non MMORPG's are dropping 'community' and trying to WOW (no pun) the masses with this concept of instant gratification at the cost of socialization.

Where the hell is the community in these games? I might as well be playing a single player RPG.

strange quite opposite in my case

maybe you should look for a guild not for zerg lemmings

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by gbooster

A reward system / incentives to keep playing. Most people want to feel like they are progressing their character. The game is really lackign in that area.

how so? it has more rewards/incentives than any other MMO out at release and actually more than many have now.. just because your idea of rewards/incentives may only mean making you more powerful that doesn't discount GW2 has plenty of rewards and incentives to continue playing. Progression isn't only power..

One thing I do hope they add though is some sort of progression for weapon skills or a system that is like the utitlity skill system and you can select differn't weapon skills for the same weapon.

Nope it doesn't,up against a game like Vanguard at release,GW2 is lacking in incentives and content.Saying it has more incetives/rewards than any other MMO at release is just over zealous fan talk.

Endgame = game over - 1.

Originally posted by Creslin321

I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

Day 1:  Get up.  Run daily.  You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 2: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 3: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 4: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 5: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 6: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.

Day 7: Get up. Run daily. You know, the same daily you've done nine months in a row now.    Raid, the same raid you've been running for two months now.   Don't get your drop.   Pretend that it matters and get ready to chase that carrot next week and yell at anyone who tells you it's just a pointless cycle.

Lather, rinse, repeat...      Watch your MMO company laugh all the way to the bank as you and tens of thousands, if not millions, of others don't figure out how you're being taken...