Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Badaboom

The more people you have, the less social people are.  Don't ask me why but from my experience it holds true. 

In small towns, people wil wave to each other and stop to talk.  In big cities people blow by one another without a passing thought.  This holds true in MMO's. 

You clearly never played golden age MMOs like EQ, UO, and DAoC...

By today's standards the populations are low.  Also, a lot of the chat was localized in those games, thus shrinking the population and encouraging cooperation and interaction (on top of that was higher difficulty).

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by TigerAero

You know, most people have to "socialize" or "deal with" socializing people all day (*IF* they have jobs....)

 

I've thought long andd hard about this and I believe people's ears (or eyes in this case) are just tired after a day of work.

 

I've sat back and thought why I refuse to get on guild's teamspeak 2 server and I'm thinking "well, tired of listening to people jabber/blab."

Hmmmm- Skyrim sounds like a game for all you people *with Jobs (was that a veiled insult Btw?) I mean heaven forbit after you come home from "Work" (something most people apparently do not do- You are "special") why would you want to *gasp* talk to people.

See, they make SINGLE PLAYER GAMES (which usually are "better" if your not socializing anyhow) and games with "leaderboards" where you can compete AND NEVER SPEAK TO A SINGLE PERSON.

I guess this is what doesnt make sense- Its not like you are forced to play MMOs.

Because I can experience the game how I want to-- and because it's buy to play. Same cash scheme as a rpg you'd get off the shelves.

 

You don't seem to understand the "power" buy to play games have. You can just throw it away casually when you get tired of the game or you can stay glued to it in hopes other people who want no subs want to play it long term.

NVM my bad- I didnt know we were talking about GW2 . I totally agree with you. I thought we were talking about MMOs in general (GW2 is not an MMORPG IMHO) =P

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

Originally posted by Badaboom

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Badaboom

The more people you have, the less social people are.  Don't ask me why but from my experience it holds true. 

In small towns, people wil wave to each other and stop to talk.  In big cities people blow by one another without a passing thought.  This holds true in MMO's. 

You clearly never played golden age MMOs like EQ, UO, and DAoC...

By today's standards the populations are low.  Also, a lot of the chat was localized in those games, thus shrinking the population and encouraging cooperation and interaction (on top of that was higher difficulty).

500k is not a low population. It's a better population than any themepark game has managed since WoW. Goes to show you how far the MMO genre has fallen. And yes the games were designed to be more social, which is kind of the point.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Torvaldr

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

YES-

But being social does niot mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for vertain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

I see MMO socializing in a very similar manner (if not the same) as you do, but what I hear with regards to complaints about socializing seem more like what I described.

The sorts of communities and social interactions take time to build.  The old games that Dewm refers to didn't build those communities right away.  They took time grow. 

I think more people are hopping in and out of games more often than ever and that has led to a perception that people are less social.  Newer games need time to age in order to build a more robust community.  I know that, while people were friendly on RIFT Faeblight server early on, the community has really developed over the last year.  It takes a core of players who are dedicated to the game to nourish that.

That's sort of how I see it anyway.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

 

 

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Sure, was a very fun experience where what I did mattered . And yes, obviously there is an emotional investment attached to anything you put time in and work towards (in game or not). These "objects" hold value much as objects of sentiment (I still have an old stuffed Toy which is worthless "junk" but means the world to me)

If there was no emotional investment why Play? Why do anything? There is an emotional investment iin everything I do from my Work to my Fun, its what fuels life. even challenging myself is an emotional investment (I have yet to beat the computer at the most difficult Chess setting but I play a game every week- And lose every week)

I realize you are trying to insult me- Thats fine. You are a random poster on a random site. You might be a CEO of a major corporation or you might live in your parents basement and try to feel good by insulting random forum people- I do not know. Nor do you know me (or anyone else you address)

If you get no emotional investment in your gaming- I am sorry. Try to find a hobby does give you that...

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Of course, as it should be.

I play games to PLAY, not socialize. If i want to socialize, i go socialize (chatroom, or god forbide, actually MEET a friend).

Grouping is different. Grouping is a gameplay style .. that i play co-op. It is not impossible that i may chat with someone in a group, but certainly that is NOT the norm, and NOT why i play a GAME.

 

See and this sort of mentality cracks me up, you say you play games to PLAY games... not socialize.. Isn't one of the great challenges of gaming working on a team?

Look back in time before computer games, look at other games that were around..

Football

Soccer

Baseball

Basketball

Vollyball

Cricket

Hockey

(I could go on for a long time)

 

All team based games, when did gaming become about AVOIDING challenges? 

All of our great sports movies now day (mighty ducks, remeber the titans etc...) were about getting a group of people and actually forming a team, getting them to work togeather..

Even 4000 years ago people hunted in groups, they worked togeather, this singlistic attitude that people have now days is unrealistic of the way we were designed.

That's a list of sports. Sports are about teamwork vs another team. Primitive toys didn't have AI, and the challenges were presented in the form of puzzle or games. For greater challenges, people took to playing against each other. With computers, we now have another opponent to challenge us. Life, culture and technology - whether you want to accept it or not - has progressed over the past 4,000 year.

It's unrealistic to enjoy Crossword Puzzles and Sodoku without others?

It's unrealistic to have fun playing an FPS or CRPG without others?

Maybe it 'cracks you up' that he plays games to just play because you are spending more effort rationalizing your own view than trying to understand the views of others.

 

 

 

 

Well first off, last time I checked "sports" are games.. let me wiki it.... brb

*5 seconds later*

Yup they are games, you can put your "argument" to rest.

 

Secondly, you can deffinitly enjoy single player games, even I enjoy a good game of solitar every now and again..

but then I ask, why play a mmo?

See this is where your "argument" has trouble, because my topic isn't about whether people want to play by themselfs with other people around.

 

The topic stemmed from another topic on WHY MMO's are less social now (if you had actually read the OP you'd know that)

thank you for your time.

You're making a huge assumption (through the eye glasses of nostalgia maybe?) that old games were more social.  They weren't.  I wasn't more social in Lineage than I was in every other game that followed.

I could socialize with my friends and guildies while grouping but that doesn't mean I'm going to get all chatty with strangers.  I don't feel very social around them or a need to make new connections.  MMOs are about gaming to me, gaming in a world where there a lot of other people.  Just like real life sometimes I chat with them, but mostly I don't.

Some people, not really directed at you Dewm, seem very needy when they whine and bitch about socializing and no one grouping with them.  One poster recently started a thread about GW2 and lack of socializing where he went off about feeling lonely in the game.  That just comes across as very needy to me.  When I hear people in global asking for people to be their friends and group up with them it kind of creeps me out.  I'm not playing to entertain them or make them feel less lonely.  Most people I know find socially needy people off-putting.  It's just a huge energy drain and doesn't forge any sort of real connection to the person.  They aren't there to make those connections.  They are just feeding off of others to satisfy their own needs.

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

 

 

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Sure, was a very fun experience where what I did mattered . And yes, obviously there is an emotional investment attached to anything you put time in and work towards (in game or not). These "objects" hold value much as objects of sentiment (I still have an old stuffed Toy which is worthless "junk" but means the world to me)

If there was no emotional investment why Play? Why do anything? There is an emotional investment iin everything I do from my Work to my Fun, its what fuels life. even challenging myself is an emotional investment (I have yet to beat the computer at the most difficult Chess setting but I play a game every week- And lose every week)

I realize you are trying to insult me- Thats fine. You are a random poster on a random site. You might be a CEO of a major corporation or you might live in your parents basement and try to feel good by insulting random forum people- I do not know. Nor do you know me (or anyone else you address)

If you get no emotional investment in your gaming- I am sorry. Try to find a hobby does give you that...

Yea no offense meant in the least but it blew my mind about your ideals on "emotional investment." Completely caught me off guard I guess.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Really?  Because in Lineage your in game reputation was very important.  It could mean the difference between being attacked on sight (KoS) and being defended from PKs without question.  It could mean the difference in being sold a 10 million Adena item for 1 million or having the price jacked up. 

In early games people didn't group because contrived content forced it. They grouped for safety to avoid being PKd or getting a huge xp loss hit from a mob swarm that killed you.  I very much get where SaintPhillip is coming from there.  That doesn't happen as much in a lot of newer games, but I don't necessarily blame group content or all game mechanics on that either.  I attribute it to the transient nature of the present gaming community more than anything.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Really?  Because in Lineage your in game reputation was very important.  It could mean the difference between being attacked on sight (KoS) and being defended from PKs without question.  It could mean the difference in being sold a 10 million Adena item for 1 million or having the price jacked up. 

In early games people didn't group because contrived content forced it. They grouped for safety to avoid being PKd or getting a huge xp loss hit from a mob swarm that killed you.  I very much get where SaintPhillip is coming from there.  That doesn't happen as much in a lot of newer games, but I don't necessarily blame group content or all game mechanics on that either.  I attribute it to the transient nature of the present gaming community more than anything.

If any game I ever bought engaged in these activities I'd no sooner uninstall that. Wow.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by TigerAero

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Really?  Because in Lineage your in game reputation was very important.  It could mean the difference between being attacked on sight (KoS) and being defended from PKs without question.  It could mean the difference in being sold a 10 million Adena item for 1 million or having the price jacked up. 

In early games people didn't group because contrived content forced it. They grouped for safety to avoid being PKd or getting a huge xp loss hit from a mob swarm that killed you.  I very much get where SaintPhillip is coming from there.  That doesn't happen as much in a lot of newer games, but I don't necessarily blame group content or all game mechanics on that either.  I attribute it to the transient nature of the present gaming community more than anything.

If any game I ever bought engaged in these activities I'd no sooner uninstall that. Wow.

It added a great dynamic, but it had some pitfalls as well.  Nothing is perfect, but certainly don't regret my time in Lineage at all.  It is one of the most memorable gaming experiences I've had.

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by TigerAero

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

YES-

But being social does not mean "Come be my friend, whats new in your life? Hows the wife?" lol.

In UO I was a KNOWN Crafter. I had a good reputation as being fair and trustworthy (server rep mattered) . Sometimes I needed to travel so I would Pay other players to "guard" me. Some players sought me out to craft things etc.

It was social within the ciontext of the game (something I think many are missing) not bullshitting about the weather or politics (except IN GAME POLITICS)- It was working together. I couldnt achive everything on my own so I had people who I went to for certain mats and services as people came to me for the same.

WOW. Emotional ties to inanimate objects, much? I never ever heard of someone going that deep into a game to wanting online reputation. 

After coughing I'm at a loss for words. I really honestly don't know what to say after reading that.

Really?  Because in Lineage your in game reputation was very important.  It could mean the difference between being attacked on sight (KoS) and being defended from PKs without question.  It could mean the difference in being sold a 10 million Adena item for 1 million or having the price jacked up. 

In early games people didn't group because contrived content forced it. They grouped for safety to avoid being PKd or getting a huge xp loss hit from a mob swarm that killed you.  I very much get where SaintPhillip is coming from there.  That doesn't happen as much in a lot of newer games, but I don't necessarily blame group content or all game mechanics on that either.  I attribute it to the transient nature of the present gaming community more than anything.

 

If any game I ever bought engaged in these activities I'd no sooner uninstall that. Wow.

-It was great =P

It made everyone very unique and the way you built your toon was not just Min/Max clone builds. It made everyone dependent upon other people because nobody could "do it all"- it gave us vibrant dynam ic economies and an ever changing and evolving world.

It also gave us many problems- Pking being one. Folks there to destroy for destructions sake chased many creative types away. No real "risk" involved for those only trying to grief others.

But they were WORLDS. Worlds in their infincy but... 

I dont want to go back to that style of play myself. Impossible now to put in the commitment really needed and the frustration- But these games should have evolved into something rather than lose their "soul".

I undestand many do not understand (you had to be there) or even would never like these games. Many like a more streamlined game with set "goals". Hell, I like those games as well and actually found WOW to be alot of fun when I played. I also like First person Shooters to blow some shit up.

BUT this "merging" of Genres into one (being set for the lowest common denomanater) where everyone "wins" no time investment needed and "pick up and play" shouldnt be the only thing offered in the AAA market- But it is. And when gaming companies (or any company for that matter) want to increase its sales it has to appeal to largest common denomanator and that inevidably "dumbs" aspects down.

Originally posted by bossalinie
Did I read a post correctly with someone saying SEVERAL million were left without a home after WoW hit? SEVERAL million people were playing mmos prior to WoW?

Hmmm- I would say yes (without looking) especially if you include MUDs.

I do not think they were left without a Home after WOW. WOW was good for what it was IMHO and gave us variety. They are mostly without a home now though =(

EDIT: To expand a bit- Wow gets lots of hate and blame for "killing the genre" and it kind of did- ONLY because of its mass appeal and the huge $$$ it made. THEN the pattern of everyone else became IMITATION rather than INNOVATION and the genre degressed. It brought a "new" kind of gamer into the mix.

Prior to WOW (especially around the mridian 59, UO years) MMORPGs were mostly comprised of people familiar with the pen and paper games. We were gaming nerds (and nerds in general). We grew up reading Tolkien and playing "Advanced" Dungeons and Dragons. We were a different breed of "scrollers" and "ghosts" on AOL.

Gaming (especially MMO in its infancy) was akin to a counterculture movement. It was the Hippie movement all over again and these games were our Woodstock. Fast forword 12 years and everyone is running around with a "Peace" sign because its all been commercialized man. =D

-We wanted complex systems and complex games. 

PLUS- Since there wasnt a Million games we got players of ALL TYPES. RPers (while I personally dont get it) really add to a game. So do PKers. Non Combat Crafters. House decoraters. Economists... We got them ALL, thus a very diverse group of players playing the same game in a million different ways.

Was quite a blast... I miss it.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by bossalinie
Did I read a post correctly with someone saying SEVERAL million were left without a home after WoW hit? SEVERAL million people were playing mmos prior to WoW?

Hmmm- I would say yes (without looking) especially if you include MUDs.

I do not think they were left without a Home after WOW. WOW was good for what it was IMHO and gave us variety. They are mostly without a home now though =(

EDIT: To expand a bit- Wow gets lots of hate and blame for "killing the genre" and it kind of did- ONLY because of its mass appeal and the huge $$$ it made. THEN the pattern of everyone else became IMITATION rather than INNOVATION and the genre degressed. It brought a "new" kind of gamer into the mix.

Prior to WOW (especially around the mridian 59, UO years) MMORPGs were mostly comprised of people familiar with the pen and paper games. We were gaming nerds (and nerds in general). We grew up reading Tolkien and playing "Advanced" Dungeons and Dragons. We were a different breed of "scrollers" and "ghosts" on AOL.

Gaming (especially MMO in its infancy) was akin to a counterculture movement. It was the Hippie movement all over again and these games were our Woodstock. Fast forword 12 years and everyone is running around with a "Peace" sign because its all been commercialized man. =D

-We wanted complex systems and complex games. 

PLUS- Since there wasnt a Million games we got players of ALL TYPES. RPers (while I personally dont get it) really add to a game. So do PKers. Non Combat Crafters. House decoraters. Economists... We got them ALL, thus a very diverse group of players playing the same game in a million different ways.

Was quite a blast... I miss it.

I agree with your assessment regarding the imitation and innovation.  However, I'd like to note that it seems what you're missing (and this is how I feel about it also) isn't a -lack- of socialization.  In fact, it's almost the opposite.  It's the disappearance of exclusivity.  Sharing the genre with people who didn't (typically) come from the pen and paper games led to a playerbase (picked up by WoW, with the aforementioned results) that had no attachment to the worlds and was transient by nature.  Hence why RP'ers are now looked down upon as lower than 'casuals'.

To everyone who was bombarding the 'GO PLAY A SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU DUMB WOW PLAYER' meme earlier, note that the only part quoted was my opening sentence.  I was speaking of 'socialization' as a whole -- games, facebook, email, iphones, etc.  It may not seem like much to many posters, but as a child of the 80's and -very- early 90's...it's quite the culture shock.  The -last- thing most of us wanted was to be constantly available to -everyone-.  THAT is what I was talking about.  If I had walked up to a friend in 1993 and told them literally every single thing I had done the previous day, they would have thought me very strange and likely told me to shut up already or, more likely, presumed I was on narcotics.  Now, if you don't update your facebook constantly, you're 'antisocial'.

Without a doubt the increasing number of ways people could socialise online was a big factor. There was a novelty to texting/chatting with online people which has now gone. But even if that had not happened, you make a game more solo; you make it less social, that simple really.

I find that if I try talking to someone or start a conversation, it's about a 60/40 chance they are an asshat. The other problem is people, and I've done it myself, do not want to play with you. They need to use you for a time but they do not want to play with you. Not to mention the growing hositility with online gamers lately. I have been almost borderline harrassed for "improperly playing" or just sucking. There was no "damn, we'll have to try better next time" with some advice on how to do better, no most of the time you are treated like a cancer that needs to be removed, and almost usually are kicked from the party or even guild.

The point is, I would like to chat with others, but I despise most on the internet by default now. Just to be sure.

These types of threads crack me up and make me think do players just whinge for the sake of it? You have every type of social activity going on in modern MMO's but the OP and others just seem to be oblivious to it all. The thing is that the majority of social activity is happening in guilds all over the place you have RP guilds (light, medium and heavy), hardcore progression raiding guilds, casual social guilds, casual raiding guilds, family guilds, young player guilds, old git guilds, PvP guilds, actual corps in EvE that run the corp like its a real buisiness etc.. I've met players in the open world and then quested and chatted with them. Every MMO I've ever played I've met new people are you guys that socially inept you have to have others forced to do it?

I spent most of my time in a group in my 10 months playing WoW, not so much in EQ2 as the UK server was very top heavy but was in a small social guild, My RP guild in LOTRO put on weekly events, I've just left a French guild in Sword2 as my French is rubbish even with O'level French, but it was worth a bash. I see social activity all over the place and isn't the LFD tool being voraciously used in all games that have it? just because players don't swap phone numbers afterwards and fall into a mad Bromance instantly with their new found Brah's doesn't mean it isn't social. I've met people who go out with a big group of friends and don't say two words all night but have a great time. Though of course the game has to force you  to socialise doesn't it? fuck going out of you way to find a group of like minded people noooooo thats too much effort, OH! the irony.