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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

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260 posts found
  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1839

"I shall take your position into consideration"

9/11/12 12:42:00 PM#61

Why would they be dead? What is wrong with normal quests?

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Thillian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/31/06
Posts: 3229

9/11/12 12:42:04 PM#62
Originally posted by grummz
Originally posted by Thillian

Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

 

 
 

Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

No, WoW wasn't the first that relied heavily on Quest Hubs.

In fact Asheron's Call 2 was the first game that introduced heavy solo oriented quest hubs that served as the way to progress throught the levels. Again, probably too "niche" for the author and obviously you too to even know such game ever existed.

Hearts give you 2-3 tasks in GW2, all serving towards the same end - how does that differ to a quest hub exactly? Just because you don't need to "pick" those quests up? Or that instead of killing 8 enemies and collecting 6 flowers,  you can change the ratio of kills : collects?

REALITY CHECK

  koboldfodder

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 370

9/11/12 12:51:03 PM#63

Who cares about the delivery method of the quest.  Whether you click on a guy, or just get it by going into the area.

 

THE ACTUAL QUESTS ARE THE SAME THING

 

"Kill X of this" amount of critters has been replaced with "Kill about this much" of this. 

"Interact with 4 of these" has been replaced with "interact with this many of these".

 

This article is the MAIN problem with this genre.  They flat out refuse to address the real problems of this genre.  Stale, boring and repetitive play and a total lack of creativity....then someone goes and pats themselves on the back.

 

Fix the cause, not the symptom.  The symptom is a lackluster game that can only keep your attention for a month or so.  The cause is the lack of creativity on the development part.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6699

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

9/11/12 12:58:01 PM#64

Sorry but replacing something (quest hubs) with something which is quite similar (heart quests, clearly marked out on the map) is not killing the former thing. But it kind of shows why the state of MMORPG industry is so stale because changes are so small and minute that they really dont matter.

I mean what is the big difference between going to an NPC with an exclamation mark and getting a quest and going to a heart icon on the map to do a quest? Even dynamic quests are not that different, it is basically like a moving NPC with an exclamation mark except you dont need to click on the exclamation mark. It is different but more similar than different.

What should happen, and I have waited years for this to happen, is for public quests to have a real impact on the persistant world. For example, some NPC faction invades an area and the "quest" is to push them back, if people don't then these NPCs will push further and further, threatening NPC towns and even eventually the capital and it is only by people banding together and pushing them back that the zone will go back to the initial state. However it should not end there, because if you do that then another quest chain should be started where players get the opportunity to invade the invaders and have quests triggered from that.

This is what I expected Dynamic Events to be like, unfourtunately they are far from that... more like a small evolution from Rifts and Public Quests in WAR.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6699

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

9/11/12 12:59:56 PM#65
Originally posted by koboldfodder

Who cares about the delivery method of the quest.  Whether you click on a guy, or just get it by going into the area.

 

THE ACTUAL QUESTS ARE THE SAME THING

 

"Kill X of this" amount of critters has been replaced with "Kill about this much" of this. 

"Interact with 4 of these" has been replaced with "interact with this many of these".

 

This article is the MAIN problem with this genre.  They flat out refuse to address the real problems of this genre.  Stale, boring and repetitive play and a total lack of creativity....then someone goes and pats themselves on the back.

 

Fix the cause, not the symptom.  The symptom is a lackluster game that can only keep your attention for a month or so.  The cause is the lack of creativity on the development part.

EXACTLY! The fact that a so called developer does not realise that is what makes the problem so much worse because they are the one's creating these games and they seem to simply lack any kind of vision. Just rehashing the same thing in different variations.

  garrett

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 6/30/09
Posts: 241

9/11/12 1:02:12 PM#66

Thanks again for this one Mark, it is very cool to get Devs writing on the site again!

 

  Zekiah

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2541

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

9/11/12 1:08:04 PM#67
Originally posted by Yamota

Sorry but replacing something (quest hubs) with something which is quite similar (heart quests, clearly marked out on the map) is not killing the former thing. But it kind of shows why the state of MMORPG industry is so stale because changes are so small and minute that they really dont matter.

I mean what is the big difference between going to an NPC with an exclamation mark and getting a quest and going to a heart icon on the map to do a quest? Even dynamic quests are not that different, it is basically like a moving NPC with an exclamation mark except you dont need to click on the exclamation mark. It is different but more similar than different.

Dead on.

Devs are so eager to take credit for some awesome, industry-changing game mechanic that they become blinded by their own perceived magnificence.

The only difference in "quest hubs" and "location quests" is that you don't have to talk to an NPC to get one. If that's evolutionary and industry-changing, the MMO industry is in trouble. The future looks bleak if you ask me.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  koljane

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/10
Posts: 130

9/11/12 1:08:47 PM#68

Questing in GW2 is horible, I mean ppl were flaming WOW and other MMORPGs about quests and i am a Warrior in GW2 that is picking up flowers and little animals almost on every theritory!????

After 2 day session I found questing prity boring and game is grind based as the GW1 was. 

It has lot of good sides, one of them is there is no montly sub but to be honest GW2 would not even be worth of monthly fee like all MMO`s this days are not also.

MMORPG as Gender is like an old bike, used to the max and there is nothing new that should be worth paying monthly.

 
  nuttob

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/11
Posts: 251

9/11/12 1:09:51 PM#69
A very perceptive article.  I noticed the EQ1 to WOW to GW2 comparision as well.  GW2 might not be revolutionary, but it certainly is evolutionary in the way I feel more like an adventurer instead of an errand boy.  I rarely look at my level bar any more.  I hope that this does indeed spell the end of the traditional quest hub.  It's hard for me to play any other MMO now, because of it.  I hope that all future MMO's take a look at this, and start implementing the new way of doing quests.
  Tuchaka

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/10
Posts: 467

9/11/12 1:12:05 PM#70
Thank you for coming in and writting a article i feel the same way about GW2 , and i can't wait to see where you guys take Firefall.
  Samhael

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/28/04
Posts: 630

9/11/12 1:13:55 PM#71
Originally posted by Reas43
Ummmm. This might come up as difficult to digest but: Many people out the enjoy Quest Hubs. They were emulated again and again for a reason. They are effective and they were well received. That you have a very vocal subset of players living in forums or having direct interest in the success of one new specific title does not mean most people don't want quest hubs. Let's see where these new so called dynamic events stand a few months after launch.

LOL. Indeed, I actually *did* laugh out loud as well. I do like quest hubs. I think they make it more convenient for me to spend my limited time in game more effectively. 

For the record, I also like roles. Yes, I don't even mind the Holy Trinity. (in some MMOs, it's a lot of fun but in others it's more of a muddle)

  Zarriya

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 230

9/11/12 1:14:34 PM#72

This smells like fanboi.....

A true journalist would also include some negative aspects of the questing system for fair balance.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

9/11/12 1:16:51 PM#73
Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

MMORPG.com is proud to introduce our newest regular columnist, Red 5's Mark Kern. Yep, -that- Mark Kern! In his inaugural column, Mark opines on the idea that a game has finally arrived that deals the death knell to 'quest hubs'. Find out what he's got to say and then weigh in with your thoughts in the comments.

They were my fault to begin with, at least partially. You see, I worked on World of Warcraft, the most quest-hub heavy game in existence. I even helped come up with that dang exclamation mark, borrowing it from Diablo 2 and being inspired by Metal Gear Solid. Since WoW, everyone shifted their online quest design to hubs and spokes, and a forest of exclamation marks as far as the eye could see. I, for one, am glad someone finally killed them for good.

Read more of Mark Kern's Quest Hubs Are Dead, Finally!

sure thing...

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2401

9/11/12 1:18:30 PM#74
Originally posted by Samhael
Originally posted by Reas43
Ummmm. This might come up as difficult to digest but: Many people out the enjoy Quest Hubs. They were emulated again and again for a reason. They are effective and they were well received. That you have a very vocal subset of players living in forums or having direct interest in the success of one new specific title does not mean most people don't want quest hubs. Let's see where these new so called dynamic events stand a few months after launch.

LOL. Indeed, I actually *did* laugh out loud as well. I do like quest hubs. I think they make it more convenient for me to spend my limited time in game more effectively. 

For the record, I also like roles. Yes, I don't even mind the Holy Trinity. (in some MMOs, it's a lot of fun but in others it's more of a muddle)

Ugh.  I can't stand quest hubs and don't see myself playing a game that has them.

  TookyG

Warhammer Online Correspondent

Joined: 4/19/04
Posts: 1193

"...you mean three philippino women."

9/11/12 1:22:45 PM#75
Don't you have to have near universal name recognition before you can use the old "that [person's name]"?

Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3863

RIP City of Heroes!

9/11/12 1:24:51 PM#76
Originally posted by grummz
Originally posted by Thillian

Saying WoW came up with quest hub just underlines the "quality" of the article.

Darkfall also suspended sales (probably too "niche" for the author). 

Anyway, hearts and DEs are actually quest hubs. Quests and quest hubs were not removed, just transformed into automated lore-less zerg fests. 

 

 
 

Hearts are DE's are not hubs. Hearts give you 2-3 tasks which all serve towards filling a bar and completion. DE's are single events. Quest hubs are like 3-8 NPC sitting around a POI that give you 8-12 quests. WoW was the first game to rely soley on quest hubs as the primary means of playing and progression (its the best XP), and really polished them and made them a consistent and dominant form of play.

If it walks like a duck....................

Look, some people can't see it for what it is and want to make it out as something that it isn't, fine.  But don't complain when other people see it differently that you do.  Glorified Public Quests.

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

9/11/12 1:26:34 PM#77
Why do you think they never had them in the beginning? They are useless and kill the game. Now if we can get devs to make worlds again!!!
  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2363

First came pride, then envy.

9/11/12 1:28:04 PM#78

A lot of you are missing the point entirely.  Hearts in GW2 are not quest hubs.  They are called Heart Tasks.  These tasks are not required to progress your level or character.  In GW2, you can level up efficiently by doing other tasks.  WvW, Gathering & Crafting, Exploring, Zone Completion, Vistas, Dynamic Events, Puzzles.  All these are alternative ways of leveling and progressing, which do not require Heart Tasks at all.

In WoW, and other MMOs, it is required to use Quest Hubs to level.  PvP is the exception, but the xp gain is too minimal anyway.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5223

9/11/12 1:34:35 PM#79


Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by Yamota Sorry but replacing something (quest hubs) with something which is quite similar (heart quests, clearly marked out on the map) is not killing the former thing. But it kind of shows why the state of MMORPG industry is so stale because changes are so small and minute that they really dont matter. I mean what is the big difference between going to an NPC with an exclamation mark and getting a quest and going to a heart icon on the map to do a quest? Even dynamic quests are not that different, it is basically like a moving NPC with an exclamation mark except you dont need to click on the exclamation mark. It is different but more similar than different.
Dead on.

Devs are so eager to take credit for some awesome, industry-changing game mechanic that they become blinded by their own perceived magnificence.

The only difference in "quest hubs" and "location quests" is that you don't have to talk to an NPC to get one. If that's evolutionary and industry-changing, the MMO industry is in trouble. The future looks bleak if you ask me.


Rift's Instant Adventures and Zone invasions are more dynamic than Hearts and DEs (not by a huge margin, but still) I'd prefer a system that expanded on what Rift has done than what GW2 has done.

To me, Rift's Zone Invasions are still the best open world PVE experience currently offered in MMOs. It's why I'm going back to that game and am really interested to see what they have done with the expansion.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Atibra

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/05
Posts: 65

9/11/12 1:42:33 PM#80

Before making a grand statement like "Quest Hubs are Dead" should you not define what your interpretation of a Quest Hub is?

 

My definition, and the general defenition from a quick web search:

Quest Hub:  Location in a zone that contains a number of NPCs that give Quests.

 

So - let's filter this definition through GW2 to see if Quest Hubs are truly dead:

 

Renown Hearts: As defined by GW2 wiki are - Area anchored by specific NPCs with supporting lore and local goals that need to be accomplished.

 

My Interpretation of Renown Hearts: This is not the death of Quest Hubs, it's simply an enhancement or an evolution of quest hubs.  You are still directed to a certain area, you still must achieve particular tasks as defined by an NPC in that area.  The  primary difference is not being forced to go back to turn in the quest.  However, Renown Heart NPCs shift into Merchants after you complete their task - promoting you to actually return to them to see what goods they have to offer; typically they provide level appropriate items and rare crafting materials that could hinder your progression if completely ignored.

 

 

Dyanmic Events:  As defined by GW2 wiki are - Events that occur in a persistent area.

 

My interpretation of Dynamic Events:  Again, not the death of Quest Hubs, simply an enhancement or an evolution of the same concept.  Due to the events occurring in a persistent area, you must travel to a specific location in order to take part in the event.  The primary difference once more being that you do not have to "turn in" the quest, and that success is area wide - as long as you took place in the event.

 

Conclusion:  Take 100 new Orc players in WoW, they will start at Razor Hill.. complete the associated tasks, and then move on to the next area.   Take the same 100 new Human players in GW2, they will start at Queensdale.. complete the associated tasks, and then move on to Kessex Hills and spend the next 12 levels running around in a circle from Bandits to Bridge to Lieutenants to Overlord (the problem with fixed dynamed events).

 

You're still forcing people to set locations for "optimal" character progression - and thus, the essence of the Quest Hub continues.  For anyone who plans on responding back saying "you have the option to level outside the "optimal" progression - the same goes for WoW, so that arguement is moot.

 

 
 
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