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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why there is no mmo innovation.

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116 posts found
  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/10/12 9:37:11 AM#21

I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5419

9/10/12 10:09:52 AM#22

You don't get much innovation in the gaming industry at all these days. If they can feed punters the same gaming food each year why bother to spend money on risky new titles? It does surprise me that the next CoD (and the rest) will not get more of a panning. MMO's are far more differant than the never ending churn out of sequels you get in the rest of the gaming industry.

But MMO's still suffer from sticking to a template which is mostly based on WoW. Any deviation from that model does not go down well with investors, so very few chances are taken

  Nikkita

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/25/10
Posts: 830

9/10/12 10:18:04 AM#23
Originally posted by MeGaTronPower

Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.

 

 

What MMOS have you been playing? let me name you some MMOS which have been innovative. 

GW2, Spellborn (now shut down), Fallen Earth, SWTOR (yes even it brought some new things to genre), TSW, Rift. These are just top of my head..shall i go on?

There has been some cool innovative ideas brought by these MMOS. Real question is if you like these new ideas or not?


Bite Me

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

9/10/12 10:32:39 AM#24

  It's so simple to understand , yet so complicated for almost everyone.  There is no innovation because you people make it waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy to easy for Devs to grab your money and doing wtf they want with it.   

 The only innovated MMO coming out within the next 2-3 years is ArcheAge , the rest will be garbage , you've all been warned.  

I was hyped about EoN , but when I look at the bigger picture it will become a World of Tanks where buying Elite Companies will be like buying Gold ammo , I don't like the direction EoN is taking for a "F2P" MMO , although it isn't released yet , I am in the Beta / Alpha , and I'm being wary.

 PS2 , PlanetSide 2 , might look alot more awesome then Ps1 , but meh , with modern warfare , BF3 , borderlands 2 , etc etc , it's like PS2 is releasing WAY to late. It should of released 2-3 years ago. 

 Mechwarrior online seems slow as F just like perpetuum , takes FOREVER to get from point A to point B.

 Neverwinter looks like every other MMO released to date , why waste my time and money on it?

 WildStar , NCSoft involved , so it's a no-no.  

The only gem releasing this month and for the rest of the year is Torchlight 2. 

 

  Devs think that a MMO is like a console game where you reach End game within a month and it's ok for them to release a new MMO and ditch the old MMO.   It's not the way a MMO business should be runned.   I hate saying this , but Blizzard stayed loyal towards their WoW fans by sticking to it strong for the past 8 years and still going strong.   CCP Also with EVE-Online for 10-11 years and still going strong.    

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

9/10/12 10:43:50 AM#25

Innovation is not hard, not if we're only looking at it from the MMORPG perspective. I can think of a lot of thigns that haven't been done in any major MMORPGs.

 

The problem with innovation is that these new ideas have not been tested before and developers don't know how their audience would react to it. Would it appeal to the masses? Would only a small portion of the market like it? Would it cause the game to ultimately become a niche game and fall by the wayside? 

 

These are all things that can happen when you introduce different elements to your game. Needless to say, it's a lot easier for developers to stick to the already tried-and-true methods, with slight variations here and there because they already know it works, and hey, millions buy into it over and over again so why the hell not. Innovation comes with a risk that big game companies are not willing to take because they are already making a bank by putting a spin in the old familiar formula. 

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1380

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

9/10/12 10:52:22 AM#26

Same reason there are no new tv shows.  Someone has to have a good idea and someone(s) else has to not be afraid to invest in that idea.  And there are only X amount of ideas to be had as a human mortal.

 

X = low and insignificant number

Next time if they ask your name tell them "Your Overlord." There's nothing more satisfying than an Arby's employee repeatedly yelling over the munching masses, "Your Overlord's classic cheddar is up!!!"

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

9/10/12 10:53:53 AM#27
Too much reliance on the 3d graphical worlds which look good but don't really interact as a game world much. If devs went back to basics with interesting design, they'd innovate, but then most people would not buy mmos without said 3d beautiful-to-look-at graphical worlds. imo. Given there's already enough complications with the tech for mmos, this is final straw seem to me.
  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/10/12 10:59:31 AM#28
Originally posted by lizardbones

I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

Excellent post, man.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

9/10/12 11:07:01 AM#29
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by lizardbones

I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

Excellent post, man.

 

 

in·no·va·tion

   [in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPA

noun

1.
something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum.

2.

the act of innovating introduction of new things or methods.
 
 
 
 
I don't think innovation means what you think it means.
 
  jmcdermottuk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 918

9/10/12 11:12:53 AM#30

What's interesting to me is the assumption that everyone copies WoW. Where do you think WoW's achievement system came from? It came after the release of WAR and was a copy of their Tome of Knowledge, with it's kill tracking, quest tracking and Titles.

LFD, already shown that came from LOTRO.

Basic premise for the whole game = EQ version of the Warcraft single player game.

I don't think you can say with any honesty that everyone copies WoW. They do follow it's basic principles of easy access and themepark style of play but WoW is just as guilty of copying things from other games that have released in the last few years.

The biggest problem is they follow this basic design too closely leading to the term WoW clone. The innovation is there, there's just not enough of it in most games to make them stand out. When they do find something new it isn't long before WoW releases a similar feature.

  Cameron27

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 150

9/10/12 11:18:31 AM#31

The answer is pretty fucking simple: The economy had a massive dump taken on it's chest, so investors are being tight with their money meaning they will only green light product pitches that can show features that have worked well previously.

 

Like the Mortal Online guys said, when they pitched their MMO, the investors liked the mixed blood character creation innovation, but they wanted them to put that in a WoW clone, they said no and proceeded to make a no-budget train wreck. 

"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  WereLlama

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/12
Posts: 221

9/10/12 11:21:10 AM#32

Easy to answer.

Just like the healthcare industry, the main reason why there is so little innovation in MMO design, is the high barrier of entry into the Market.

Doctors require 10+ years of college to be a working physician.  They have alot to investment at risk to innovate.

With MMOs, unlike many other games, they require a great deal of time, money, and effort to develop.

If an MMO took 6 months to make from beginning to publishing, you would get alot more innovation/

As in healthcare, if people were cool with paying someone with a 2 year degree to diagnose and treat their symptoms, we would see a huge amount of innovation there as well.

- Blitz

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20652

9/10/12 11:21:50 AM#33
Originally posted by MeGaTronPower

Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.

 

 

If it works, why break it? Good implementation is 100x more difficult than innovation. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Just look at this forum.

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/10/12 11:34:53 AM#34
Originally posted by Krytycal
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by lizardbones

I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means.

Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way.

It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation.

What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).

Excellent post, man.

in·no·va·tion

   [in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPA

noun

1.
something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum.

2.

the act of innovating introduction of new things or methods.
 
 
 
I don't think innovation means what you think it means.
 

 

The OP says there is no mmo innovation. That is false. Innovation can also be an entirely new creation or invention, but they are not solely new creations or inventions. Even when they are, those creations and inventions are improvements on existing conditions or solutions to existing problems.

Innovation is often transparent and can be something as simple as

  • - access to your bank box while at a crafting station
  • - retaining group members after log off to optionally auto group when logged back in
  • - displaying a comparison panel of player's current gear and targetted gear when at a shop or auction house

 

while nailing down the definition of innovation can be tricky, the general consensus is that it is applied creativity that improves or adds value, not just new for the sake of new.

For those of you more interested in mental masturbation about the meaning of innovation, here's a great link.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/10/12 12:44:42 PM#35


Originally posted by Krytycal

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by lizardbones I do not think innovation means what people on these forums think it means. Rift used talent trees very similar to WoW's talent trees, but added the ability to have trees in different combinations. Rift used War's public quests, but turned them into events that would spawn and spread. That's what innovation means. Take something that currently exists, and use it in a new way. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like what the game did, it's still innovation. It doesn't matter if you, as a player, don't like the features the developers chose to use as the inspiration for their innovation, it's still innovation. What's interesting to me is that using WoW for inspiration is somehow not innovation (on these forums), while using a game like Ultima Online as inspiration somehow is innovation (on these forums).
Excellent post, man.
 

  in·no·va·tion? ?[in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPAnoun 1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum. 2. the act of innovating;  introduction of new things or methods.         I don't think innovation means what you think it means.  




Ah well, I should have looked it up before getting snotty. I suspected that might come back and bite me.

Rift's systems were still innovations. They still introduced something new. My snotty comments aside, there is innovation in the genre. The problem isn't with a lack of innovation, the problem is with players not liking the innovation.

Just because players don't like the innovations being made, doesn't mean the innovations don't exist.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5247

9/10/12 12:48:55 PM#36
I've actually wondered this. I really think that the industry is at a point where we have reached the limits of what present technology can produce. AI can only go so far. And you have to keep it within reach of the demographic you cater to.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  gambe1

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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 125

9/10/12 12:56:34 PM#37

Innovation presents risk. Companies and investors don't like risk. To the OP. If you think WoW was innovative, you are quite wrong. Blizzard copied and has been copied. The thing Blizzard made right was presenting WoW in a neat little package and brought game to the masses. 

Innovation will come, but it will happen gradualy. My biggest hope right now is Archeage, though combat does not look innovative, it will present a lot of new elements. Though i could be wrong.

  lizardbones

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Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/10/12 1:03:33 PM#38


Originally posted by gambe1
Innovation presents risk. Companies and investors don't like risk. To the OP. If you think WoW was innovative, you are quite wrong. Blizzard copied and has been copied. The thing Blizzard made right was presenting WoW in a neat little package and brought game to the masses. 

Innovation will come, but it will happen gradualy. My biggest hope right now is Archeage, though combat does not look innovative, it will present a lot of new elements. Though i could be wrong.




Thank you.

ArcheAge is presenting old elements in a new way. It's following the same process as nearly every other game that's released in the last year or so. Except they are going with a sandbox instead a theme park so for some reason, ArcheAge counts as innovation, while what everyone else is doing doesn't.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  User Deleted
9/10/12 1:10:40 PM#39

Innovation is getting someone to pay $3 for a cup of coffee or $1 for a glass of water...

It's all about packaging... nothing more, nothing less...

  coretex666

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Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1839

"I shall take your position into consideration"

9/10/12 3:19:32 PM#40

Would be more interesting thread if you left out the note about copying WoW. Obviously many people will react to that rather than the lack of innovation part. Anyway...

I agree that there is not much innovation. All the recent AAA MMOs seem like 2004 to me. Looking at the games that are supposed to be released in next several years makes me afraid that the genre is not really developing.

Blizz stated that Titan is supposed to be something different...it is like a last bit of hope for me.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

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