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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Who the frack is Fawcett?

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  Vannor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2887

9/09/12 6:26:48 PM#21
Originally posted by Apropo
Originally posted by Vannor

/snip

The simple fact you can even say that other games have anything remotely comparable sounds incredibly naive and ignorant which in turn will make it impossible for us to accurately inform you of why we feel Guild Wars 2 has done these things "better".

I've played all major released MMO's since 1990's and I've not seen one game do anything like these puzzle dungeons excluding single player games like Tomb Raider.

I'll give it a shot I suppose since you did point out you sounded like a troll but honestly want to know.   My friend had 6 trees in his back yard when I grew up.  His dad let him build a tree fort; which we spent a lot of time in. With our imagination we thought up crazy adventures in deep jungles with caves and hidden treasure.  Later that year I moved to a place that was deep in the mountains with lots of forrest and old abondoned mining camps.   Your simplistic comparison is that since my friend had trees in his back yard there is no difference then the forrest surrounding my house in the woods.

The difference is yes even though they are still tree's, just a lot more of them, we had more of an adventure because we could go find things on our own, make our own path, our own adventure.   Our minds didn't have to imagine all of the adventure we had now hidden things to find for ourselves that weren't laid out for use and hand held us with hints.

Does RIFT and other games before have dungeons and such? Yes... DUH!! but nothing hidden in such a way, built in such a manner SPECIFICALLY for you to possibly miss if you don't really look around.  Finding these hidden places and figuring them out as well as experiencing the story built within them and around them is SO Different than any other game I've seen in the past.   Some of the little hidden area's I've found would have normally been nearly impossible to find, they are hidden that well.  That being said if a player never looks online for spoilers there are going to be countless of these hidden things that will be missed and only those true explorers will find and enjoy.  NO other game offers that.

Ok, so you feel the design of these areas are more detailed and the possibility of not experiencing something makes it a better experience if you do experience it. Your comparison to playing a child was the sort of answer I was looking for lol, very psychological. I don't feel the same way about it, maybe I just don't get as connected with a game as I could.. as immersed as some others do. I kinda wish I did tbh.

 

  solarine

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/06
Posts: 1204

9/09/12 6:31:24 PM#22
Originally posted by Vannor

.... I mean, why is it more fun finding a cave on your own? Why is that a greater sense of accomplishment? ...

Honestly? There's a world of difference. Just like there's a world of difference between going to some place interesting as part of a guided tour and just exploring on your own and happening upon it.

The former can and does breed admiration, but the latter breeds something else: Wonder. It's just you and the mysterious place you came upon, with no agents in between. It's like you've harvested this little special bit of the world by and for yourself, privately - rendering your relation to the world a bit more personal as well. 

It's a mystery you've reaped from the world. Though it's got a bigger impact when the object of mystery is impressive as well. :)

After all, isn't walking in a jungle and - totally unaware - happening upon a majestic temple more impressive than taking a guided tour there?

I think this translates pretty well into exploration in gaming as well.

 

  Vannor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2887

9/09/12 6:35:39 PM#23
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Vannor

/snip

You are saying for example that WoW has the same stuff so why is GW2 getting the praise. WoW does not have exploration at all, none of it. It does not have secret locations or unexpected events.

Everything in WoW is kind of on a "flat land" - there's not a single location in the game especially after flying mounts that feels like you discovered something secret, hidden, or unique in that game. There's not a single jumping puzzle, you get anywhere by walking or flying there with no effort. This is true for most of themeparks, so it's nice to actually stumble on hard to get places in GW2 that are not on open sight and has achievement or something at the end.

I wasn't trying to start a game war. I'll use Rift as an example of what I meant. In Rift there is a puzzle in every zone with a reward and an achievement attached to it.. just like there is a major jumping puzzle with an achievement in each zone in GW2. Those puzzles are there, they are not easy to find, some arn't easy to get to, arn't on the map and no quest leads you there. You do not need to find them and can easily miss them. Yet, nothing has ever been said about them. What I'm basically trying to see here is whether people even knew these things existed in all the other themeparks out there. It's like the removal of traditional quests has caused everyone to notice, or set out to look for, things they didn't used to.

  solarine

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/06
Posts: 1204

9/09/12 6:45:14 PM#24
Originally posted by Vannor

....

I'll use Rift as an example of what I meant. In Rift there is a puzzle in every zone with a reward and an achievement attached to it.. just like there is a major jumping puzzle with an achievement in each zone in GW2. Those puzzles are there, they are not easy to find, some arn't easy to get to, arn't on the map and no quest leads you there. You do not need to find them and can easily miss them. Yet, nothing has ever been said about them. What I'm basically trying to see here is whether people even knew these things existed in all the other themeparks out there. It's like the removal of traditional quests has caused everyone to notice, or set out to look for, things they didn't used to.

Plus, SWTOR had Datacrons, which were off-the-beaten-path as well. And most involved jumping puzzles - some of them quite on the difficult side.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4036

9/09/12 6:47:07 PM#25

I can tell you right now, Lion's Arch has 3 that I know of.  I found one in Metrica Province, wasnt' able to finish, it's diabolical.  The WvW zones each have one and those are pretty tough too.  Definitely love just stumbling upon this stuff.   

On a side note, there is a cow launching event in Diessa Plateau, that if you stick around afterward, they take a few bets on where the cows will land.  I bet once, 50silver and ended up winning.  Got a token I sold for 1g.  I was so happy.  Was very cool this was out there with no marker on the map.

  Kuinn

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1861

9/09/12 7:12:53 PM#26
Originally posted by Vannor
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Vannor

/snip

You are saying for example that WoW has the same stuff so why is GW2 getting the praise. WoW does not have exploration at all, none of it. It does not have secret locations or unexpected events.

Everything in WoW is kind of on a "flat land" - there's not a single location in the game especially after flying mounts that feels like you discovered something secret, hidden, or unique in that game. There's not a single jumping puzzle, you get anywhere by walking or flying there with no effort. This is true for most of themeparks, so it's nice to actually stumble on hard to get places in GW2 that are not on open sight and has achievement or something at the end.

I wasn't trying to start a game war. I'll use Rift as an example of what I meant. In Rift there is a puzzle in every zone with a reward and an achievement attached to it.. just like there is a major jumping puzzle with an achievement in each zone in GW2. Those puzzles are there, they are not easy to find, some arn't easy to get to, arn't on the map and no quest leads you there. You do not need to find them and can easily miss them. Yet, nothing has ever been said about them. What I'm basically trying to see here is whether people even knew these things existed in all the other themeparks out there. It's like the removal of traditional quests has caused everyone to notice, or set out to look for, things they didn't used to.

 

I'm not fighting a "game war" here either, just saying what I've experienced in these games. I didnt know that Rift had those puzzles, I played it to level 18 or so and quit because it was the most linear quest hub to quest hub narrow path I've ever seen in any themepark mmorpg to date.

 

I'll have to tip hat for Trion here though for adding these special locations, I have no idea of their quality but it's a good thing they do exist in any shape, and it makes me actually to look forward upcoming Trion games a bit more (Defiance anyone? Might be fun).

  Kuinn

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1861

9/09/12 7:18:50 PM#27
Originally posted by solarine
Originally posted by Vannor

....

I'll use Rift as an example of what I meant. In Rift there is a puzzle in every zone with a reward and an achievement attached to it.. just like there is a major jumping puzzle with an achievement in each zone in GW2. Those puzzles are there, they are not easy to find, some arn't easy to get to, arn't on the map and no quest leads you there. You do not need to find them and can easily miss them. Yet, nothing has ever been said about them. What I'm basically trying to see here is whether people even knew these things existed in all the other themeparks out there. It's like the removal of traditional quests has caused everyone to notice, or set out to look for, things they didn't used to.

Plus, SWTOR had Datacrons, which were off-the-beaten-path as well. And most involved jumping puzzles - some of them quite on the difficult side.

 

True, I enjoyed the datacron mining a lot. Bioware did pretty good job with the datacrons, even if the carrot was a bit too "specific" - I ended up googling the locations for the crons my class got benefit most from, not how to get there, but the general location. Anyhow, when SWTOR was launched I gave pretty much praise for the cron hunt so at least on my case cant be said that GW2 puzzles get praise but no others.

  DrWookie

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/09/12 7:28:27 PM#28
Originally posted by Vannor

i wasn't asking for the games details, I've played it to death. I would like to know the psychology behind it. I mean, why is it more fun finding a cave on your own? Why is that a greater sense of accomplishment? Having to do things to progress though an area, like puzzles, isn't new, WoW does it, EQ2 does it, Rift does it etc. etc. Why is it better here? The puzzles are actually much simpler than in other MMOs. And why isn't exploration considered a carrot on a stick? It's still do this and you might get this... Explore and you might find something, not so different from run dungeon and you might get something.

As I'm writing this I can see it's starting to sound trollish. I'm being serious though, I'm a fan of the game. I'd like to know how people justify this attitude towards GW2 when I honestly think it's been in almost every MMO out there. I was playing EQ2 today.. stumbled upon some rumbler caves in the Thundering Steppes. No quest lead me there, decided to go in. It was a little maze like going through tunnels with a few rewards here and there. There are many more examples out there, that was probably one of the worst ones but it was fresh in my mind. Why is GW2 getting praised for this stuff while others arn't or havn't?

Someone may have already mentioned this but,

Most of the "puzzles" people are talking about in this thread have NOTHING to do with progression in the zones. You can get 100% zone completion and never seen any of these. There are other "caves" and "dungeons" and even some jumping puzzles that lead to vistas/POIs etc... that are all part of completion. While those are fun, they are different.

The jumping puzzles, to me, represent a great change because they are fully realized, beautiful areas (honestly the prettiest places I"ve seen in this game has been these jumping puzzles) that are 100% outside of the main pathway of the game. Not even a side quest...just a completely unnecessary sidestep that you can do whenever. Yes they hold "treasure" but really you rarely get anything that useful out of the treasure that you can't get elsewhere. They are really made just to stumble upon and enjoy. I don't remember finding areas in other MMO's like that...when I did find a cool area I would end up getting a quest later on that would lead me there and I would realize that the area exists for a quest, for a purpose. These areas don't have renown hearts, or POIs, or skill points, or vistas (though some lead to the best "vistas"), they are just there for fun (and a measly 10 achievement points each).

 

EDIT: Okay I just read one of your later posts. I was not aware that Rift had similar areas. I've never played the game so I can't really comment on them. Regardless of whether this concept is new or unique to GW2, it is still a blast and like I said above the areas you go to are some of the prettiest and most creative in the game (THere is a volcano/research station, some crazy floating cube research station, several large pirate-themed puzzles, an awesome cave full of lava etc...)

  Toxia

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1264

9/09/12 7:40:05 PM#29
Originally posted by DrWookie
Originally posted by Vannor

i wasn't asking for the games details, I've played it to death. I would like to know the psychology behind it. I mean, why is it more fun finding a cave on your own? Why is that a greater sense of accomplishment? Having to do things to progress though an area, like puzzles, isn't new, WoW does it, EQ2 does it, Rift does it etc. etc. Why is it better here? The puzzles are actually much simpler than in other MMOs. And why isn't exploration considered a carrot on a stick? It's still do this and you might get this... Explore and you might find something, not so different from run dungeon and you might get something.

As I'm writing this I can see it's starting to sound trollish. I'm being serious though, I'm a fan of the game. I'd like to know how people justify this attitude towards GW2 when I honestly think it's been in almost every MMO out there. I was playing EQ2 today.. stumbled upon some rumbler caves in the Thundering Steppes. No quest lead me there, decided to go in. It was a little maze like going through tunnels with a few rewards here and there. There are many more examples out there, that was probably one of the worst ones but it was fresh in my mind. Why is GW2 getting praised for this stuff while others arn't or havn't?

Someone may have already mentioned this but,

Most of the "puzzles" people are talking about in this thread have NOTHING to do with progression in the zones. You can get 100% zone completion and never seen any of these. There are other "caves" and "dungeons" and even some jumping puzzles that lead to vistas/POIs etc... that are all part of completion. While those are fun, they are different.

The jumping puzzles, to me, represent a great change because they are fully realized, beautiful areas (honestly the prettiest places I"ve seen in this game has been these jumping puzzles) that are 100% outside of the main pathway of the game. Not even a side quest...just a completely unnecessary sidestep that you can do whenever. Yes they hold "treasure" but really you rarely get anything that useful out of the treasure that you can't get elsewhere. They are really made just to stumble upon and enjoy. I don't remember finding areas in other MMO's like that...when I did find a cool area I would end up getting a quest later on that would lead me there and I would realize that the area exists for a quest, for a purpose. These areas don't have renown hearts, or POIs, or skill points, or vistas (though some lead to the best "vistas"), they are just there for fun (and a measly 10 achievement points each).

 

EDIT: Okay I just read one of your later posts. I was not aware that Rift had similar areas. I've never played the game so I can't really comment on them. Regardless of whether this concept is new or unique to GW2, it is still a blast and like I said above the areas you go to are some of the prettiest and most creative in the game (THere is a volcano/research station, some crazy floating cube research station, several large pirate-themed puzzles, an awesome cave full of lava etc...)

Completely agree, but that's probably because im usually right there with you drooling over everything.

The best places ive been to or seen in this game have been the little areas nestled off to themselves, it really shows how much love the artists/dev's put into the game.

Now, back to the game Wookie, ain't got time to be up in here typing books.

~Taaz

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  DrWookie

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/09/12 7:41:46 PM#30
Originally posted by Toxia
Originally posted by DrWookie
Originally posted by Vannor

i wasn't asking for the games details, I've played it to death. I would like to know the psychology behind it. I mean, why is it more fun finding a cave on your own? Why is that a greater sense of accomplishment? Having to do things to progress though an area, like puzzles, isn't new, WoW does it, EQ2 does it, Rift does it etc. etc. Why is it better here? The puzzles are actually much simpler than in other MMOs. And why isn't exploration considered a carrot on a stick? It's still do this and you might get this... Explore and you might find something, not so different from run dungeon and you might get something.

As I'm writing this I can see it's starting to sound trollish. I'm being serious though, I'm a fan of the game. I'd like to know how people justify this attitude towards GW2 when I honestly think it's been in almost every MMO out there. I was playing EQ2 today.. stumbled upon some rumbler caves in the Thundering Steppes. No quest lead me there, decided to go in. It was a little maze like going through tunnels with a few rewards here and there. There are many more examples out there, that was probably one of the worst ones but it was fresh in my mind. Why is GW2 getting praised for this stuff while others arn't or havn't?

Someone may have already mentioned this but,

Most of the "puzzles" people are talking about in this thread have NOTHING to do with progression in the zones. You can get 100% zone completion and never seen any of these. There are other "caves" and "dungeons" and even some jumping puzzles that lead to vistas/POIs etc... that are all part of completion. While those are fun, they are different.

The jumping puzzles, to me, represent a great change because they are fully realized, beautiful areas (honestly the prettiest places I"ve seen in this game has been these jumping puzzles) that are 100% outside of the main pathway of the game. Not even a side quest...just a completely unnecessary sidestep that you can do whenever. Yes they hold "treasure" but really you rarely get anything that useful out of the treasure that you can't get elsewhere. They are really made just to stumble upon and enjoy. I don't remember finding areas in other MMO's like that...when I did find a cool area I would end up getting a quest later on that would lead me there and I would realize that the area exists for a quest, for a purpose. These areas don't have renown hearts, or POIs, or skill points, or vistas (though some lead to the best "vistas"), they are just there for fun (and a measly 10 achievement points each).

 

EDIT: Okay I just read one of your later posts. I was not aware that Rift had similar areas. I've never played the game so I can't really comment on them. Regardless of whether this concept is new or unique to GW2, it is still a blast and like I said above the areas you go to are some of the prettiest and most creative in the game (THere is a volcano/research station, some crazy floating cube research station, several large pirate-themed puzzles, an awesome cave full of lava etc...)

Completely agree, but that's probably because im usually right there with you drooling over everything.

The best places ive been to or seen in this game have been the little areas nestled off to themselves, it really shows how much love the artists/dev's put into the game.

Now, back to the game Wookie, ain't got time to be up in here typing books.

~Taaz

I know I know, but I'm not home yet. Won't get home till late. Don't explore too much without me!  Iheard there are some cool puzzles in the high level zones.

  Raekon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 551

9/10/12 2:02:02 AM#31
Originally posted by elocke

I can tell you right now, Lion's Arch has 3 that I know of.  I found one in Metrica Province, wasnt' able to finish, it's diabolical.  The WvW zones each have one and those are pretty tough too.  Definitely love just stumbling upon this stuff.   

On a side note, there is a cow launching event in Diessa Plateau, that if you stick around afterward, they take a few bets on where the cows will land.  I bet once, 50silver and ended up winning.  Got a token I sold for 1g.  I was so happy.  Was very cool this was out there with no marker on the map.

The WvsWvsW ones are diabolical because if other players enter after you, they can use the traps to get you killed so you won't reach the end and grab the chest and rewards before them. ^_^

Adds additional PvP fun and is VERY challenging to say the least.

  dumbo11

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/05
Posts: 129

9/10/12 3:34:22 AM#32
Originally posted by Vannor

I wasn't trying to start a game war. I'll use Rift as an example of what I meant. In Rift there is a puzzle in every zone with a reward and an achievement attached to it.. just like there is a major jumping puzzle with an achievement in each zone in GW2. Those puzzles are there, they are not easy to find, some arn't easy to get to, arn't on the map and no quest leads you there. You do not need to find them and can easily miss them. Yet, nothing has ever been said about them. What I'm basically trying to see here is whether people even knew these things existed in all the other themeparks out there. It's like the removal of traditional quests has caused everyone to notice, or set out to look for, things they didn't used to.

In most games, if you try exploring, then you'll wander into a dungeon, repeatedly kill all of the fast-respawning mobs and reach the bottom... only to find a chest that you can't open.  Later, you'll realise that the chest was for a quest that you haven't done yet, the mobs were for another quest, and those unclickable things on the floor were for yet another - so you'll eventually have to repeat it all and open the chest.  (in SWTOR terms - you discover a red force field).  The effect is to teach a player to 'wait until the carrot is dangled before wandering off'.

In GW2:

- all of the carrots are accessible at level 1.  If you wander into a dungeon, you can immediately do everything in the dungeon (providing you are capable).  You'll never need to return to a dungeon, so you might as well explore it now.

- most space on the map is 'open'.  The designers did not have to squeeze 300 quests into 30 sq metres. Maps are larger than required, travel is easy... As a result, that cave next to the road doesn't need 320 rabbits in it for a quest...  that waterfall doesn't need 32 piranha so that players can collect 160 piranha livers.  Instead the designers can put a chest or jumping puzzle in it - they have more room to create interesting content.

Like a lot of GW2's design - it's not huge changes, but tiny changes to the design that combine to make a huge difference to the gameplay.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8131

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

 
OP  9/10/12 4:50:52 AM#33
Its an ESKA kind of game... for sure. Maybe even EKSA... but Exploration first and arheiving deathlast.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online

  DrWookie

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 242

9/10/12 8:42:49 AM#34
To me one if the biggest things GW2 did, which I've wanted for ages, is remove the following scenario:

You're wandering in the forest. You skipped the quest hub just cause you got caught up in exploring. You stumble upon a cave with a really cool named boss. You are up for the challenge and think "cool I can take him". You fight and defeat him. 20 minutes later you are in town and find a quest giver who asks "please oh please will you kill [named boss you already killed]". You then have to go back and do it again. That always bugged me. Why can't you get credit for killing the boss BEFORE they asked you to? I love that "quests" now are tied to actually doing the activity, instead of talking to the right person.
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