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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

PvE & Crafting  » Compared to other MMO dungeons, Guild Wars 2 dungeons are...

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86 posts found
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4852

9/09/12 4:53:45 PM#61
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by eggy08

These are fights I experienced. But again you use logic, I use it back. You used the word any, I refuted by showing you examples. If you want more, do your own research and play the game or look it up. I'm not doing it for you.

So the majority of the fights can be res zerged outside of a few like the two you mentioned?

Gaia is saying most bosses reset on full wipe so your res zerging wouldn't matter either way.. i haven't seen enough dungeons to say either way so just going off what I have read. If that's the case then it works like pretty much how most other MMOs I have played work and don't see the issue.

The issue he is stating is that as long as 1 person is alive, the rest of the team can come back into the encounter whenever they want and continue to zerg the boss while most places kick you out the instance and won't let you join in the instance until the boss is dead or you wipe. Problem with this in GW2 is that:

1. If you get kicked out of instances, then you cannot rejoin the instance a good portion of the time due to DEs blocking the entrance.

2. If you block off the area so noone can join, then you cannot reset a fight properly for the people inside.

Only plausible case would be to not allow someone to rez till the fight is over, but even then people would say that boss fights are far too hard for the casual and story mode is meant for the casual player and thus makes the argument more of a design choice than a problem with difficulty scaling.

It seems like the people who think these dungeons are easy have only played some of the easier ones. Each dungeon does have a variety of ways to go through it, and some are easier than others. I.E. CoF has an explorable path that is ridiculously easy, to the point where I barely have to pay attention. However TA has explorable paths that are so hard that most groups rage quit before they even get half way through the dungeon.

As for bosses resetting, some bosses it's easy to keep them from resetting, others it's a lot harder. Some are really far away from respawn points, some just don't allow you to do that. Furthermore, if you are beating dungeons by dying more than a half dozen times, you are operating at a loss. You may 'clear' the dungeon eventually, but you will need a lot of money to support the constant failures.

Furthermore, many bosses have mechanics that you have to deal w/ (you can't just zerg), such as abilities that will consistantly 1shot you if not avoided, or skills that will put so many strong conditions on you, that if you can't deal w/ that you'll die in a few seconds. It can get rough.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

9/09/12 4:55:03 PM#62
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by heartless

You didn't respawn outside of the dungeon. You ran as a ghost back into the dungeon and were resurrected upon entering. Dying did not prevent you from continuing to run the dungeon from the point of your defeat.

In Vindictus if you are defeated you lose all your progress and are returned to town.  Is that a better example for you?

So go play Vindictus then. There are different standards for western and asian MMOs. It's obvious that GW2 does not appeal to you, go play a game that does.

What?  I was proposing a system that would add to the difficulty of GW2 dungeons, because I'd like the game to have some sort of challenge.  Also if the game hadn't appealed to me, I wouldn't have bought it.

Why does wanting more difficulty, or at least a slightly different aspect of a game, equate to me having to go play a different game because I don't like the one I've been playing?

Maybe I'm just not fanboy enough and should work on liking absolutely everything about the game no matter what.  Because if not, obviously it's not a game for me.  RIght?

It's not going to make it difficult, it's going to make it tedious. There is a difference. Having to start all over is not a good way to go.

But if you really want to get sent to town upon defeat, every time you die press H, go to the Mists and from there to Lion's Arch. There you go, no reason to redesign the system as you can already play it that way.

Edit: personally, I think that the difficulty is just fine. CM story mode is a bit on the easy side and could use a buff but the rest of the instances are difficult enough.

 

Given that reasoning, no content ever created is "too easy" since the player can always make it insanely difficult if they choose too.

My point is that it's already possible to play the game how kadepsyson wants. If he or she finds to content too easy, then it is possible to make it more difficult.

The instances are already difficult enough and adding more tediousness in the form of kicking people out of the instance upon defeat is not going to help. However, if a person wants this feature, the game already allows for it.

  User Deleted
9/09/12 4:58:25 PM#63
Originally posted by Badaboom
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Straw man 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Nice haha, OWNED

I heard some people like that word, "owned", they use it to make them feel they won even when they lost. This said, Aerowyn is 100% right here.

straw man, known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Informal Fallacy - An informal fallacy is an argument whose stated premises fail to support its proposed conclusion.[1] The deviation in an informal fallacy often stems from a flaw in the path of reasoning that links the premises to the conclusion. In contrast to a formal fallacy, the error has to do with issues of ratiocination manifest in language used to state the propositions; the range of elements that can be symbolized by language is broader than that which the symbolism of formal logic can represent.

If you want to talk logistics. I can play that game.

"Any boss that is even remotely challenging is easily countered by res zerging. Even the dungeons in this game are easy mode due to this option."

So if I propose an example of a boss that can't be countered by zerging I win right?

Ok then. Second boss in SoE is a protect quest. Mobs spawn rapidly and attack the person doing the action (hacking the computer) and you must stop the mobs from killing her. If you lose even one person that fight becomes impossible as add management gets out of control and can 4-5 shot the NPC. So running back and trying to get into the fight which is about a min walk will not work since the mobs will kill her before you get back. Thus you cannot die and zerg it.

Also, I have done some explorable modes. Citadel of Flames, one boss spawns crystals that heal the boss while they are up. If you have 1 less person because he is a derp and manages to die on this fight you will not have the damage to kill the boss as he will heal back to full since the crystals constantly spawn and you need dps on them and the boss.

So thus, proves your point invalid. Yay logic.

I wouldn't worry about anything that atlan says as he is leaving for borderlands 2. 

Just happy he is leaving. Could care less where he's going, but sadly won't probly leave these forums.

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2677

9/09/12 5:17:50 PM#64
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by eggy08

These are fights I experienced. But again you use logic, I use it back. You used the word any, I refuted by showing you examples. If you want more, do your own research and play the game or look it up. I'm not doing it for you.

So the majority of the fights can be res zerged outside of a few like the two you mentioned?

Gaia is saying most bosses reset on full wipe so your res zerging wouldn't matter either way.. i haven't seen enough dungeons to say either way so just going off what I have read. If that's the case then it works like pretty much how most other MMOs I have played work and don't see the issue.

The issue he is stating is that as long as 1 person is alive, the rest of the team can come back into the encounter whenever they want and continue to zerg the boss while most places kick you out the instance and won't let you join in the instance until the boss is dead or you wipe. Problem with this in GW2 is that:

1. If you get kicked out of instances, then you cannot rejoin the instance a good portion of the time due to DEs blocking the entrance.

2. If you block off the area so noone can join, then you cannot reset a fight properly for the people inside.

Only plausible case would be to not allow someone to rez till the fight is over, but even then people would say that boss fights are far too hard for the casual and story mode is meant for the casual player and thus makes the argument more of a design choice than a problem with difficulty scaling.

You speak as if a boss wont kill you the moment you make a mistake.

In fact some bosses will kill ALL THE PARTY very easily in a blink.

Surviving 10-20 seconds till the others arrive against some bosses is hard as nails.

And if they don't all arrive at the same time you are in for a downhill battle.

One battle that is "easy" to stay alive vs the boss is last boss of TA story mode if you are a necro due to the thousand little spider mobs restoring the life force.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  User Deleted
9/09/12 5:22:24 PM#65
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by eggy08

These are fights I experienced. But again you use logic, I use it back. You used the word any, I refuted by showing you examples. If you want more, do your own research and play the game or look it up. I'm not doing it for you.

So the majority of the fights can be res zerged outside of a few like the two you mentioned?

Gaia is saying most bosses reset on full wipe so your res zerging wouldn't matter either way.. i haven't seen enough dungeons to say either way so just going off what I have read. If that's the case then it works like pretty much how most other MMOs I have played work and don't see the issue.

The issue he is stating is that as long as 1 person is alive, the rest of the team can come back into the encounter whenever they want and continue to zerg the boss while most places kick you out the instance and won't let you join in the instance until the boss is dead or you wipe. Problem with this in GW2 is that:

1. If you get kicked out of instances, then you cannot rejoin the instance a good portion of the time due to DEs blocking the entrance.

2. If you block off the area so noone can join, then you cannot reset a fight properly for the people inside.

Only plausible case would be to not allow someone to rez till the fight is over, but even then people would say that boss fights are far too hard for the casual and story mode is meant for the casual player and thus makes the argument more of a design choice than a problem with difficulty scaling.

You speak as if a boss wont kill you the moment you make a mistake.

In fact some bosses will kill ALL THE PARTY very easily in a blink.

Surviving 10-20 seconds till the others arrive against some bosses is hard as nails.

And if they don't all arrive at the same time you are in for a downhill battle.

One battle that is "easy" to stay alive vs the boss is last boss of TA story mode if you are a necro due to the thousand little spider mobs restoring the life force.

 

Its not as hard as it sounds if you are the one who actually knows the fight mechanics. I've had plenty of fights where people die and walk back multiple times because they just cant get it down while me and my friend sit on the boss. In SoE the last boss 1 shots you if you don't dodge and that is hard as shit to dodge because it comes so fast, we died a lot on it and walked back bec distance wasn't rediculously large and the boss didn't attack super frequently,

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 660

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

9/09/12 5:25:18 PM#66
Originally posted by Nadia
for people voting easy - im curious what mmos have traditionally harder dungeons?

Doesnt have dungeons in the sense of instances like GW2 or WoW. But FFXI pre cap increase would destroy this game in difficulty. Hell Absolute Virtue wasn't defeated by a guild/linkshell for close to 6 years and the devs had to come out with video's to show how to kill it and people still couldn't do it. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  BigAndShiny

Novice Member

Joined: 6/06/11
Posts: 177

9/09/12 5:52:31 PM#67

I feel like Guild Wars 2 is pointlessly difficult.  But it's not tactics.  The fights themselves are just standard zerg tactics.   The problem is they throw random traps and bombs and other stuff at you to make the instances artificially difficult.

 

Also, does every trash mob need to be in a room of 5 million traps and things so it just kills you straight away unless you have supreme concentration?    I AM A TEAM OF 5 HEROES.  Yes, sometimes there should be challenging encounters, but there should also be easy ones that make us feel powerful.  That is the effect of 'trash mobs' in other games.  

 

Guild Wars 2's dungeons do not require tactics, skill or even luck.  They require you to strafe, dodge, kite and jump.  

  User Deleted
9/09/12 5:55:30 PM#68
Originally posted by BigAndShiny

Guild Wars 2's dungeons do not require tactics, skill or even luck.  

That's what I could say about every other MMO dungeon in existence.

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2522

9/09/12 7:21:34 PM#69


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
You speak as if a boss wont kill you the moment you make a mistake.

In fact some bosses will kill ALL THE PARTY very easily in a blink.

Surviving 10-20 seconds till the others arrive against some bosses is hard as nails.



Which is a bad thing in itself.


Bosses and even trash mobs are not smart they just do a LOT of damage which is a pathetic lazy way of adding "difficulty".

  Emerwyn

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/06
Posts: 77

Unliving.

9/09/12 7:27:52 PM#70

Pretty faceroll. Did Arah on hard mode first day I hit level 80 (hard mode, heroic, explorable, whatever), ungeared and with a PuG I randomly joined at the gates. For those that don't know it, Arah is the hardest dungeon of the game. Easy and straightforward, every fight was tank and spank (GW doesn't have holy trinity - my ass. Tell that to the Guardian tank in my party, or the pure DPS elementalist). Didn't use strategies whatsoever other than dodging the obvious red zones of danger that you're warned about 3-4 seconds before anything dangerous really happens in them, which become even more trivial to avoid with the dodge-roll ability. To be honest, the hardest part was some 3-4 regular mob pulls simply due to the stupid amounts of damage they deal, since mechanic-wise they're really easy to dwal with.

 

And if that wasn't enough, you can corpse-zerg anything without their health resetting. I miss WoW hardmodes, when they were really hardmodes.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

9/09/12 7:35:09 PM#71
They're pretty much same deal as in majority of MMOs. Hard port comes from no trinity, rather than some unusal instance design. Previous dps/healers players are not used to dps/heal/support and defend. They think - I'll stand in one place and pew pew/heal heal - thus the trouble.
  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1189

9/09/12 7:44:55 PM#72

Easy, very rarely will any enemy in the entire game have more than 5 attacks. Most story mode bosses have 3 or less attacks, unless you count attack chains.

I've yet to come upon a dungeon that offers challenge that requires more than one attempt. Most of the time we end up making our own challenges that can either make an area of a dungeon harder or easier depending on how stupid we are feeling. Things like can I grab all the event items without killing a single mob, or can I kill a boss without getting hit, just simple stupid things that we try and do add entertainment value.

  User Deleted
9/09/12 7:49:13 PM#73

love how some of these folks will tell you it's easy. Like they've never had anyone get downed or outright die in the process of fighting a boss. Yeah, screenshots/videos or it didn't happen.

These dungeons are definitely challenging and no one can tell me honestly that they've never had a down or death while fighting a boss in these dungeons on explore mode. sorry, not buying it. there is such a thing as cooldowns on healing and dodging you know.

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

9/09/12 7:56:20 PM#74
Remember cataclysm heroics before everyone got geared? Yea, we will see how hard these dungeons actually are when people actually have the gear they are supposed to when tackling the only end game content.
  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2912

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/09/12 8:01:27 PM#75
About the same really, of course before gear comes into effect on those other games. The biggest reason people are failing is they are lacking on the CC or Support end. People seem to think the 'trinity is dead' statement is true on this game when you still need a trinity, just a new one. If you have a reliable CC and Support and have others pick up either part as needed, the dungeons get a lot easier. If your going in 5 dps blazing, your going to feel pain.
  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2677

9/09/12 8:01:32 PM#76
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Remember cataclysm heroics before everyone got geared? Yea, we will see how hard these dungeons actually are when people actually have the gear they are supposed to when tackling the only end game content.

Like level 80s being pwned left and right in Ascalonian Catacombs explorable that is designed for level 35?

They will become easier with time but 1 mistake, 1 dodge to early or too late and you will die.

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2677

9/09/12 8:03:45 PM#77
Originally posted by Purutzil
About the same really, of course before gear comes into effect on those other games. The biggest reason people are failing is they are lacking on the CC or Support end. People seem to think the 'trinity is dead' statement is true on this game when you still need a trinity, just a new one. If you have a reliable CC and Support and have others pick up either part as needed, the dungeons get a lot easier. If your going in 5 dps blazing, your going to feel pain.

Reliable CC vs Unshakable and 2 stacks of Defiant?

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2912

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/09/12 8:07:16 PM#78
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Purutzil
About the same really, of course before gear comes into effect on those other games. The biggest reason people are failing is they are lacking on the CC or Support end. People seem to think the 'trinity is dead' statement is true on this game when you still need a trinity, just a new one. If you have a reliable CC and Support and have others pick up either part as needed, the dungeons get a lot easier. If your going in 5 dps blazing, your going to feel pain.

Reliable CC vs Unshakable and 2 stacks of Defiant?

 

Bosses are different, I speak mostly out of the sake of trash. Honestly, the bosses are the easiest part of the dungeon. A lot of the boss mechanics can be dodges or avoided with careful play. Even then, some CC can help as well though of course not as well. Typically one of your CC (and possibly support) will be able to take a brunt of the boss attack using a shield and tank the encounter.... yes.... I said tanked, we know you can do it, even if its not as reliable as it was in other games to keep that agro. One more tanky player acting in part to be the first to charge in and provide their CC/Support can do wonders for a group.

  Jimmydean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

9/09/12 8:07:24 PM#79
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Remember cataclysm heroics before everyone got geared? Yea, we will see how hard these dungeons actually are when people actually have the gear they are supposed to when tackling the only end game content.

Like level 80s being pwned left and right in Ascalonian Catacombs explorable that is designed for level 35?

They will become easier with time but 1 mistake, 1 dodge to early or too late and you will die.

 

Same with cataclysm dungeons. There's a reason these dungeons are hard right now, and it's not because of their design. It's because people don't know the scripts, are wearing terrible gear, and are using their "solo" Traits that they've been using the entire game (theres no reason not to when you solo to max level).

  Zeus.CM

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Posts: 1800

www.croatian-maniacs.com

9/09/12 8:08:52 PM#80

Regular mobs in dungeons can kill defensive (tanky) warrior in 4 strikes. They are often immune to CC.

Bosses, almost always immune to CC, kill Warrior with shield and def traits in 2 strikes. Tell me about how gw2 dungeons are easy!

On top of that they are long. Depending on team sometimes you need to make room for 3-hour run.

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