Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Krystalmyth

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Enigmatus
Um...I can't tell if this is a parody of the threads that praise the trinity and loathe anything else, or if you actually mean what you say...

Elikal is cool. I vouch for him.

<.<   >.>   <.< Ahh don't make me blush!

No, I am not joking! Why would I do that!

The trinity gave me always comfort, kinda knowing my place in the grand scheme of things, like being in a real team or what!

You are still a part of the team in GW2. The only way you can say this is if you don't understand your role. What profession do you play? Do you understand your skills, what they do? How they work together with team mates? I don't really get how you can say this. At all. If you're not trolling, and not joking, at least answer me this.

You see, the only referrence that comes to my mind, how to contribute to a team, either in a WvW group or sPvP or dungeon as I experienced was, by translating my powers into Trinity roles. Like playing Thief "ok now I am DMG", or playing Guardian or Warrior with shield "Ok, now I soak dmg = tank" or playing Ele with water: ok now I try to heal. Only that none of the classes *really* can do any of these for real. I do not see how people can team without thinking in terms of the Trinity. People became Jack of all trades, and the Trinity functions were just split, reduced and distributed over all classes. So I don't see what we gain, in fact we more lose, we lose shape, role, definition, clarity and order. Wasn't the progress of modern society based on specialization as well? In the age of barbary, everyone was self-supporting, so all people did a bit carpenting, a bit fishing, a bit cooking, a bit building houses asf. Everyone could do a bit of everything, but nothing really well. Nowadays in our modern society, we have people who specialize in building houses, people who specialize in cooking, sewing, carpenting asf, and they excel above anything a jack of all trade EVER can do. That is how modern society advanced. We specialized. So for me this jack of all trade classes are like a step back. No one wants to be confined into one role, because nobody really has the discipline for real teamwork. All want to be independent atoms, circling around themselves. The egocentric society. And as in society so in games. People feel fulfilling one role as limitation. As so we fall back into a mindset of barbarism, where people were unwilling to make a compromise in their independence and as result nothing great was accomplished. I see the inability to limit oneself to a role in a team as a serious character flaw of our modern times.

You are really missing the picture. There are roles, you can play a role its just 1. Not exactly the same roles and 2. Every class can play every role to some extenct.

What this means is you can be flexible with your class and not walk down a narrow path to only a certain role all of the time. Removing roles like tanks and healers in pve is the smartest thing to have done IMO, tanks still exist in pvp though.

I don't want to be unpolite, but... what you say just makes no sense to me. Tanking, Healing, DMG and Mezzing were and are THE basic functions of MMORPG combat, in virtually every MMO out there. They are like the chemical elements: the most basic functions of combat which you can not break down otherwise. So why break these functions up and distribute them half assed instead of bundling them and this make them more efficient?

I just don't get it AT ALL why breaking up the Trinity into jack of all trade functions = watering them down is a progress in any way?! I just don't see that as progress or improvement. I don't understand how anyone can see that as better, save in the relief to be free of responsibility.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Krystalmyth

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Enigmatus
Um...I can't tell if this is a parody of the threads that praise the trinity and loathe anything else, or if you actually mean what you say...

Elikal is cool. I vouch for him.

<.<   >.>   <.< Ahh don't make me blush!

No, I am not joking! Why would I do that!

The trinity gave me always comfort, kinda knowing my place in the grand scheme of things, like being in a real team or what!

You are still a part of the team in GW2. The only way you can say this is if you don't understand your role. What profession do you play? Do you understand your skills, what they do? How they work together with team mates? I don't really get how you can say this. At all. If you're not trolling, and not joking, at least answer me this.

You see, the only referrence that comes to my mind, how to contribute to a team, either in a WvW group or sPvP or dungeon as I experienced was, by translating my powers into Trinity roles. Like playing Thief "ok now I am DMG", or playing Guardian or Warrior with shield "Ok, now I soak dmg = tank" or playing Ele with water: ok now I try to heal. Only that none of the classes *really* can do any of these for real. I do not see how people can team without thinking in terms of the Trinity. People became Jack of all trades, and the Trinity functions were just split, reduced and distributed over all classes. So I don't see what we gain, in fact we more lose, we lose shape, role, definition, clarity and order. Wasn't the progress of modern society based on specialization as well? In the age of barbary, everyone was self-supporting, so all people did a bit carpenting, a bit fishing, a bit cooking, a bit building houses asf. Everyone could do a bit of everything, but nothing really well. Nowadays in our modern society, we have people who specialize in building houses, people who specialize in cooking, sewing, carpenting asf, and they excel above anything a jack of all trade EVER can do. That is how modern society advanced. We specialized. So for me this jack of all trade classes are like a step back. No one wants to be confined into one role, because nobody really has the discipline for real teamwork. All want to be independent atoms, circling around themselves. The egocentric society. And as in society so in games. People feel fulfilling one role as limitation. As so we fall back into a mindset of barbarism, where people were unwilling to make a compromise in their independence and as result nothing great was accomplished. I see the inability to limit oneself to a role in a team as a serious character flaw of our modern times.

You are really missing the picture. There are roles, you can play a role its just 1. Not exactly the same roles and 2. Every class can play every role to some extenct.

What this means is you can be flexible with your class and not walk down a narrow path to only a certain role all of the time. Removing roles like tanks and healers in pve is the smartest thing to have done IMO, tanks still exist in pvp though.

I don't want to be unpolite, but... what you say just makes no sense to me. Tanking, Healing, DMG and Mezzing were and are THE basic functions of MMORPG combat, in virtually every MMO out there. They are like the chemical elements: the most basic functions of combat which you can not break down otherwise. So why break these functions up and distribute them half assed instead of bundling them and this make them more efficient?

I just don't get it AT ALL why breaking up the Trinity into jack of all trade functions = watering them down is a progress in any way?! I just don't see that as progress or improvement. I don't understand how anyone can see that as better, save in the relief to be free of responsibility.

Let me ask you this, is the trinity system perfect? let me answer that for you as well, no! It poses problems in both pve and pvp. GW2 did not change it to "jack of all trades" there are still roles, like I already mentioned, they are not the same and everyclass can fulfill them(but not all at one time).

Its ok if you don't like how the roles play out in GW2, but I can't understand how you can't understand why some folks are sick and tired of the trinity.

you have to think of every class as a hybrid with a unique flavour.

take healing for example. no 1 class can straight up heal, but every class can self heal and quite a few can do small group heals. in order to keep everyone alive the healing resposibility doesn't just fall onto the 1 or 2 designated healers, but on everyone.  

everyone has to make sure they take the least ammount of damage by dodging. everyone has to make sure they dont die by disingaging if they get too low, and those clasess that do have small group healing have to make sure they rotate those heals between them since a lot of heals dont stack. all the while trying to put out as much dps as they can.

a single great healer can no longer save a whole group. the whole group has to share all the roles (cc/healing/dpsin/tanking) and do it at the correct time as not to waste other's cooldowns. you besically take turns being the cc, or the healer, or the tank, or the dps.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

you have to think of every class as a hybrid with a unique flavour.

take healing for example. no 1 class can straight up heal, but every class can self heal and quite a few can do small group heals. in order to keep everyone alive the healing resposibility doesn't just fall onto the 1 or 2 designated healers, but on everyone.  

everyone has to make sure they take the least ammount of damage by dodging. everyone has to make sure they dont die by disingaging if they get too low, and those clasess that do have small group healing have to make sure they rotate those heals between them since a lot of heals dont stack. all the while trying to put out as much dps as they can.

 

a single great healer can no longer save a whole group. the whole group has to share all the roles (cc/healing/dpsin/tanking) and do it at the correct time as not to waste other's cooldowns. you besically take turns being the cc, or the healer, or the tank, or the dps.

 

 

 

 

The problem is, when everyone can heal and tank and dmg somewhat, it demands WAY more alterness for exact timing and reaction. And how many average MMO gamers are capable or willing to be so focussed? Not many, I would say. In reality, 90% of all member of a random GW2 zerg just dish out dmg. Sometimes here and there one Ele swaps to Water built. The demand to exactly cooperate IMO becomes so much more demanding and complicated, that it outweights any gain in flexibility with the high demand to alertness, reaction and adaption.

I just don't believe I could walk better just because I had six legs instead of merely two. Sometimes having more options is not better, because you are slowed down actually because you have to chose more often.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Krystalmyth

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Enigmatus
Um...I can't tell if this is a parody of the threads that praise the trinity and loathe anything else, or if you actually mean what you say...

Elikal is cool. I vouch for him.

<.<   >.>   <.< Ahh don't make me blush!

No, I am not joking! Why would I do that!

The trinity gave me always comfort, kinda knowing my place in the grand scheme of things, like being in a real team or what!

You are still a part of the team in GW2. The only way you can say this is if you don't understand your role. What profession do you play? Do you understand your skills, what they do? How they work together with team mates? I don't really get how you can say this. At all. If you're not trolling, and not joking, at least answer me this.

You see, the only referrence that comes to my mind, how to contribute to a team, either in a WvW group or sPvP or dungeon as I experienced was, by translating my powers into Trinity roles. Like playing Thief "ok now I am DMG", or playing Guardian or Warrior with shield "Ok, now I soak dmg = tank" or playing Ele with water: ok now I try to heal. Only that none of the classes *really* can do any of these for real. I do not see how people can team without thinking in terms of the Trinity. People became Jack of all trades, and the Trinity functions were just split, reduced and distributed over all classes. So I don't see what we gain, in fact we more lose, we lose shape, role, definition, clarity and order. Wasn't the progress of modern society based on specialization as well? In the age of barbary, everyone was self-supporting, so all people did a bit carpenting, a bit fishing, a bit cooking, a bit building houses asf. Everyone could do a bit of everything, but nothing really well. Nowadays in our modern society, we have people who specialize in building houses, people who specialize in cooking, sewing, carpenting asf, and they excel above anything a jack of all trade EVER can do. That is how modern society advanced. We specialized. So for me this jack of all trade classes are like a step back. No one wants to be confined into one role, because nobody really has the discipline for real teamwork. All want to be independent atoms, circling around themselves. The egocentric society. And as in society so in games. People feel fulfilling one role as limitation. As so we fall back into a mindset of barbarism, where people were unwilling to make a compromise in their independence and as result nothing great was accomplished. I see the inability to limit oneself to a role in a team as a serious character flaw of our modern times.

The trinity is gone (at least in this instance) and you need to be told exactly what to do and when to do it.

If you were a convict one would say you were completely institutionalized.   Its sad really.

Originally posted by Elikal

 

The problem is, when everyone can heal and tank and dmg somewhat, it demands WAY more alterness for exact timing and reaction. And how many average MMO gamers are capable or willing to be so focussed? Not many, I would say. In reality, 90% of all member of a random GW2 zerg just dish out dmg. Sometimes here and there one Ele swaps to Water built. The demand to exactly cooperate IMO becomes so much more demanding and complicated, that it outweights any gain in flexibility with the high demand to alertness, reaction and adaption.

I just don't believe I could walk better just because I had six legs instead of merely two. Sometimes having more options is not better, because you are slowed down actually because you have to chose more often.

yes, it requires everyone to know very well all classes, so that for example as a guardian, when you see a ranger put down his well of healing, or a elementalist use his rain of healing,  you dont waste your healing ability but instead (if necessary) you use your damage shield ability, or a cc ability.

it actually requires more team awareness and coordination since swapping roles has to be timed correctly so that the group doesn't end up with everyone's heals on cooldown, or everyone's cc on cooldown,  etc.

in large WvW zerg fests this will be almost impossible but in small, 8vs8 arenas this will actually compliment team work a lot more then single effort, as the team that works the best together wins.

no one class can do much by theselves, unlike WoW where a good healer, dps, tank can pretty much carry the team.

with hybrids coordination is actually key, since by themselves hybrids are usually weaker.

IMO the healer's the only thing missing as far as the trinity goes lol. You've got guardians and warrs that charge in and take aggro anyways. The way I found people filling the healer roll was by combining their own heals with others. Last night I did sorrow's embrace where people in my party combined heals and we were good. Example, as a ranger I used healing spring and our ele used some water aoe heal in the same spot that provided some solid regen to the group using that and their own heals we were good. Granted the few times we charged in like idiots we all died but that happens with a trinity as well u.u

On a side not though, I felt like the person who designed twilight arbor needs a smack on the head. The AoE degen in that dungeon is stupid. At one point I felt like there was no way in hell it would be doable without a dedicated healer. We finished it eventually...2 hours later... but still. There's somethings that need severe balance in the dungeons. I understand the dodging and red circles. I really do. They're meant to keep you awake and give a sense of actually doing something other than pushing numbers 1 through 8. But tell me how I'm supposed to dodge red circles coming from 50 billion million different sources spread all across the ground...? 

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
 

The problem is, when everyone can heal and tank and dmg somewhat, it demands WAY more alterness for exact timing and reaction. And how many average MMO gamers are capable or willing to be so focussed? Not many, I would say. In reality, 90% of all member of a random GW2 zerg just dish out dmg. Sometimes here and there one Ele swaps to Water built. The demand to exactly cooperate IMO becomes so much more demanding and complicated, that it outweights any gain in flexibility with the high demand to alertness, reaction and adaption.

I just don't believe I could walk better just because I had six legs instead of merely two. Sometimes having more options is not better, because you are slowed down actually because you have to chose more often.

Bad players are bad, what's new there? Some people just stand in the middle of lava fonts or other MASSIVE red damage circles and just take the damage like complete and utter lemons and then cry out "REZ PLOX".

In fairness, even with rotations it is easy to access the ability you need to quickly react to the situation even though you are devoting your attention to what is going on around you and what other people are dropping.

As an Ele primarily specced as a Dagger/Dagger damage build I switch to Staff/combos when running DE's/WvWvW and always CC/Heal drop combos and switch elements. If the group are getting hammered to low health and someone drops a healing field, I'll drop arcane wave and improve it etc etc. Having the extra options and flexibility allows me to tailor to the groups needs/individual situation. Personally my interest in the game stems from improving my ability and working on different set ups, combos, rotations and how they interplay with differing group dynamics (within a pvp context primarily).

If some people are not capable or not willing to use what is there and instead just spam a couple of attacks within the middle of a zerg, well more power to them if they are having fun doing that. But then they shouldn't be surprised when they die alot if they are running higher end content or PvP.

Originally posted by grapevine

Kind of proving a point here.  The problem isn't the trinity doesn't exit, just people aren't generally spec'ing into rolls.  Take a balanced group (doesn't need to be 100% trinity builds) and you'll not be wiping 50 time.

 

Just because it's not designed around the trinity, doesn't mean people should ignore rolls.  You can still be tank like in this game, and you can still have healers.

 

If you don't mind wiping, then fine.

But everyone in the GW2 forums is saying that spec'ing in anything other than DPS is a waste of time because you are gemping your character?

Sounds to me like the game is flawed by its design.

Originally posted by stayontarget

Originally posted by grapevine

Kind of proving a point here.  The problem isn't the trinity doesn't exit, just people aren't generally spec'ing into rolls.  Take a balanced group (doesn't need to be 100% trinity builds) and you'll not be wiping 50 time.

 

Just because it's not designed around the trinity, doesn't mean people should ignore rolls.  You can still be tank like in this game, and you can still have healers.

 

If you don't mind wiping, then fine.

But everyone in the GW2 forums is saying that spec'ing in anything other than DPS is a waste of time because you are gemping your character?

Sounds to me like the game is flawed by its design.

There are other specs. I use a defensive(tank) Ele build which is especially usefull in pvp.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk. It also presupposes the complete idiocy of any enemy you face. Let's face it, if you were a troll/gnoll/kobold/bandit and some guy kept healing this big guy with the shield in front of you, who would you kill first?

I'm still waiting for an MMO to come along with no healing at all, but

The situation you describe is as old as WoW arena (older still) and you won't simply kill the healer even then. If the tank can't hold you with taunts (they do actually have a literal meaning and purpose) if you're a dumb PVE mob, he'll cripple, daze, root, stun or otherwise hold you in a position where you have to mainly deal with him, not his healer.

Your astounding misinterpretation of that dynamic is fascinating. You only need to look at the history of warfare, and not even in great detail, to grasp these concepts.

If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons.

GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest. 

I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.

Originally posted by Gaendric

If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons.

GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest. 

I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.

 

The dungeons are the really only actual wall I bumped into. Ok, that and jumping. I really wish they'd make a casual friendly mode of dungeons.

I'll help you Elikal, the roles in GW2's sPvP are as follows:

Direct Damage - self-explanatory

Condition Damage - self-explanatory

"Raid boss" - the one who can hold a capture point against 2 or even 3 targets long enough (15-30 seconds) that allies can come to assist. (Currently Guardian is a strong one)

Support - assists team fights.

You can also divide builds according to how they do in groups or solo; thus, you have group characters who  can help and rely on each other, and solo characters with high survivability that can perform tasks such as ninja-ing a capture point or enemy lord, operating the trebuchet, destroying enemy trebuchet etc.

As always however, nothing is rarely so simple, but this should give you a good start. Give 'em hell.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

No way! Never! We only just managed to get rid of the trinity, finally!

Never been a fan of trinity systems but that's what we were stuck with for a long time. It doesn't fit with the D&D origins of the games, nor ultlimately with the Tolkeinesque roots of the genre as a whole. It also presupposes the complete idiocy of any enemy you face. Let's face it, if you were a troll/gnoll/kobold/bandit and some guy kept healing this big guy with the shield in front of you, who would you kill first?

I'm still waiting for an MMO to come along with no healing at all, but proper mitigation/avoidance mechanics. Maybe one day...

I never understood the zeal of some people to get rid of it. For me it is something that works.

It's because most cannot seperate the notion of a trinity and that of specific class reliance. They think trinity automatically means waiting 4 hours for a cleric.

In an ideal world, my ideal world anyhow, trinity stays and reliance on specific classes goes.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Gaendric

If one dungeon is not fun, try another before giving up on the game or it's dungeons.

GW2 has totally inconsistent game design. Some zones/areas/encounters/dungeons are the best PvE you can find (in terms of fun), others are full of horrible game design and basically a lemmingzergfest. 

I am sure it will even out over time, they probably just had to rush quite a few things for release.

 

The dungeons are the really only actual wall I bumped into. Ok, that and jumping. I really wish they'd make a casual friendly mode of dungeons.

I really enjoy the fact that I can actually die in a dungeon. I haven't played a challenging game since the early days of GW1. I quite like the difficulty.

Just let us enjoy them as long as we can. They'll probably tone down the difficulty eventually, just like they did with GW1. ...which was kinda shame.

Personally i like the challenge.

you have to actually pay attention to stay alive.