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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Problem with not having the trinity

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132 posts found
  Muntz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 280

9/07/12 12:24:39 PM#21

 It's human nature when faced with something different we desire something familar. Could it simply be that your not used to the play style(s) of Guild Wars 2 but have years invested in the trinity? The game hasn't been out that long there is time to adapt. It's ok, you don't have to be an expert from day one or have it all figured out in a week or two.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6503

"I fight so you don't have to."

 
OP  9/07/12 12:26:15 PM#22
Originally posted by Angier2758
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by pags411

I don't think that's the intent.  The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class.  In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity.  This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic.  It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities.  It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play.  You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation.  You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc.  It feels much more engaged.  It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online. 

 

I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward.  However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles.  I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me.  Some people love it and others hate it.  I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE.  I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently.  It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games.  How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?

I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?

There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.

 I would have to disagree especially on the last part there..... guardian have a lot of ways to prevent damage and some healing.  They just aren't taunts and outright heals.

For example a reflecting wall stops a ton of incoming damage and cc... its up for about 5 or 6 seconds?  Seems long in a fight.    It's counter play are volley style moves or attack that go ground up.

Guardians also have a shield 5 which is a knock back and ranged damage shield.

They also have a small bubble that stops incoming damage, forces enemies out and heals people under it....

They have a much bigger bubble that stops ranged attacks....

I can keep going here... but if you think there's no mitigating damage you're sorely mistaken.

 

Didn't say there wasn't. What I said is that there isn't anyone who can consistently do it because the skills that do exist are on relatively long timers so you can continously keep them up. However I am not experienced enough in Guardians to say for sure but if someone is and can tell me that they can consistently mitigate damage over time then please do tell me how.

  suu141

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/17/07
Posts: 252

" ... "

[Mod Edit]

9/07/12 12:28:30 PM#23
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by suu141

Warriors and Guardians are considered tanks since they usually take the brunt of the damage when they go melee.

I agree, it's complete pandamonium without tanks controling the mobs and player corpses everywhere without dedicated healers.

 

But honestly, I'm kinda glad this isn't another game where 99% of the population are DPS and the remaining 1% are healers and tanks.

 

That is funny because I feel that in GW 2 everyone is, more or less, DPS because that is the only role that can be effectively filled. Tanks and CC are also there but they cannot consistently fill their roles which means they are mostly DPS as well.

So as I see it, in GW 2, they changed tank/healer/CC/DPS ----> DPS with off CC and tanks. Not sure I see the improvement.

*nods*

The difference between this game and others is: "you don't have to wait around for 2-6 hours every time you need a healer and tank just to go do something".

 

"When you're born you're naked, when you die you're naked again, and in-between all we do is work, eat, and play MMOs." ~Forum Warrior #141

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6503

"I fight so you don't have to."

 
OP  9/07/12 12:28:32 PM#24
Originally posted by Muntz

 It's human nature when faced with something different we desire something familar. Could it simply be that your not used to the play style(s) of Guild Wars 2 but have years invested in the trinity? The game hasn't been out that long there is time to adapt. It's ok, you don't have to be an expert from day one or have it all figured out in a week or two.

Actually the system which I liked and played the most was Asherons Call which also did not have dedicated healers but rather an open skill system. However what existed in that game was consistent damage mitigation buffs, which at high levels lasted for almost an hour and consistent self heals.

That is not the case here, none of the damage mitigation abilities can be consistently used over time due to long cool down.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/07/12 12:29:54 PM#25
Originally posted by Yamota 

That is funny because I feel that in GW 2 everyone is, more or less, DPS because that is the only role that can be effectively filled. Tanks and CC are also there but they cannot consistently fill their roles which means they are mostly DPS as well.

So as I see it, in GW 2, they changed tank/healer/CC/DPS ----> DPS with off CC and tanks. Not sure I see the improvement.

 

You can't, believe it or not, purely fill a dps role either. The skills you bring don't allow such a generic approach. You'll have with you skills that do damage to foes, control foes through various means and support allies through various means, with most of them doing multiple things at a time. It's no longer a matter of what role you fill. It's a matter of using the right skills at the right time based on the situation. The better your balance across all three aspects, the greater your overall versatility and effectiveness will be in this combat system.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Purgatus

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/12
Posts: 347

9/07/12 12:33:45 PM#26
The removal of the trinity was to adress one problem in particular, that of mandatory classes. You do not need any one class to do content. That's not to say that this trinity is perfect, but I like it much better. Also, anyone who claims they can "tank" has not done a dungeon yet. Even in the first dungeon, you have to keep handing off bosses. Foefire will kill you, tank or no, in seconds.
  Angier2758

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1060

9/07/12 12:35:06 PM#27
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Hate to burst your bubble, but there arent any tanks in GW2 either.

Another outright blatant lie.

 

My Warrior with mace + shield traited towards full toughness & vitality can easily stand between you and that mob to take the hits for you. I can also stun-chain the mob to gain hate back on me, and to allow you to escape its wraith.

 

You aren't playing GW2 if you think what Fendel84M is true. My guild already has "Roles" lined up for people who want them, and we use them to great effect in dungeons and in World Events. Hasn't failed us yet.

I think that is the beauty of this games system. Sure you can try to mimmick a tank if you want. You can spec an elementalist for heals so there is a healer same as tank then. But i've seen defensive guardians run in first and get trampled 100 times faster than any traditional "tank" would.

If thats how you want to play, go for it. But you don't have to. We've all seen the video of the full DPS specced group doing the dungeon they never did before and surviving.

 It's not a lie.... just a close minded guild doing what they do best.  Nothing wrong necessarily... but you can do the exact same thing without a mace/shield warrior.

A thief might actually be able to function better than your mace/shield warrior.... a sword/gun mesmer would definitely be able to... might even take less damage overall.

  Angier2758

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/09
Posts: 1060

9/07/12 12:37:52 PM#28
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Muntz

 It's human nature when faced with something different we desire something familar. Could it simply be that your not used to the play style(s) of Guild Wars 2 but have years invested in the trinity? The game hasn't been out that long there is time to adapt. It's ok, you don't have to be an expert from day one or have it all figured out in a week or two.

Actually the system which I liked and played the most was Asherons Call which also did not have dedicated healers but rather an open skill system. However what existed in that game was consistent damage mitigation buffs, which at high levels lasted for almost an hour and consistent self heals.

That is not the case here, none of the damage mitigation abilities can be consistently used over time due to long cool down.

 No they can be rotated though..

  mgilbrtsn

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/14/09
Posts: 1079

He who fights and runs away... misses out on the loot

9/07/12 12:45:07 PM#29
While all classes have an ability to Potentially do many things, you only have a limited amount of slots.  So when grouping, different characters can specialize into some different roles in order to be more efficient, than a bunch of generalists

They are coming for you!

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

9/07/12 12:45:28 PM#30
There is no trinity in this game, it seems to me that most of you cannot seem to shake that. Any class can build tanky, and most classes have heals or support skills that affect everyone near them. You can put on a shield for your warrior and guardian, however that does not make you a tank. If you don't beleive me try it i an instance or in WvW and watch as you get roflstomped. Just saying... you can trait tanky but you are "not" a tank.
  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

9/07/12 12:46:06 PM#31

Really wouldn't use AC as a benchmark to contrast this when the combat even against enemies eventually boiled down to debuffs that strip you of those defenses and plenty of spells.

 

Debuff, debuff, bludgeon...

 

Even melee and archer players largely went that route after a while.

 

It was an open system that favored a somewhat narrow mode of play. You didn't really need dedicated tanks or healers, you didn't need a trinity. What you did need was life magic and the proper buffs/debuffs to open holes in defenses to beat on and the conversion spells to top up yourself when you ran into trouble.

 

As for Guild Wars 2, like others have said, the game really isn't designed to be played the same way others are. You don't want to go off and wait for the enemy to hit you over and over, you want to dodge, strafe, and avoid much of the damage. Even as a guardian or warrior 'tanking' is more about keeping enemies on the runabout and deflecting their assault against yourself and allies, not about standing there with aggro.

 

The defensive abilities a character earns are intended to be piecemeal because of that. In a single fight your role changes situationally. Like for example one of the first abilities you get on the guardian off the bat is a small aoe healing aura with the mace. If you switch to sword you get a dash, ranged blast, and a bubble knockback initially. As a skill unlock you also get a flat self heal on your character for those 'oh shit' moments where you just can't mitigate or dodge right.

Point with this is that the focus on 'tanking' isn't about aggro management or damage soaking, but crowd control and putting enemies where you want them, or keeping them away from what you don't.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  gigat

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/24/10
Posts: 605

9/07/12 12:47:12 PM#32
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Pouf

Like some said there is no aggro system. I personally feel the GW2 dungeons like a Wow dungeon with a crappy tank.

 

I'm not saying that in a bad way, I always kinda like to be able to kite/stun/cc mobs to their death even with a dead/fail tank

There is actually an "Aggro system", however just like Heart quests with those "Progress BarS" that hide how many X Bear Butts you need to farm, Aggro system is hidden just the same.

 

You can tell this by spamming stuns, or DPS, and standing the closest to a mob than other people. Mobs don't just "randomly" pick a target, and you can actually piss a Veteran, Champion, or Boss mob off to the point it focuses souly on you.

 

Playing more would lend this info to you more readily however.

I discovered this as well.  Especially when I apply vulnerability to a tougher NPC, they always target me.  I notice it the most in WvW when we attack NPC guards or champions.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/07/12 12:52:50 PM#33
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
While all classes have an ability to Potentially do many things, you only have a limited amount of slots.  So when grouping, different characters can specialize into some different roles in order to be more efficient, than a bunch of generalists

Again, this whole "specialize into a role" thing is fallacious. You have too many trait points to fully "specialize". Too many skills do to many things to "specialize". The harder you try to specialize, the less effective you'll be as a whole. Look at it as a whole... the traits system at a full 70 points, all the utilities available, the ability to swap weapons and the multiple and sometimes situational skills. It all screams for a more balanced approach. Then when you combine that with other players that are fully capable you really begin to see the whole becoming much greater than the sum of the parts.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  User Deleted
9/07/12 12:54:27 PM#34
Originally posted by pags411  How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?

Resident Evil is basically Pac-man. I hope I don't have to explain that. Point being, let's not get carried away here with the "bold" and the "new".

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/07/12 1:00:20 PM#35
.....yes all mmos should work exactly the same way, we don't want variety :p
  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

9/07/12 1:01:24 PM#36
Originally posted by Yamota

I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?

There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.

The word you are looking for is Teamwork.

Ranger drops a Healing Spring and Warrior steps in with Whirling Blades and you get a big AoE Combo Heal.

Mace & Shield Warrior uses his 3 second Block then rolls out of the way while it is on cooldown only for the Mesmer to step in with a Block or Bubble.

Top groups will have their players rotating Group Condition Clears (as they are the key Healing mechanic in the game) so somebody's is almost always off cooldown.

It is not "all DPS/all Zerg" in this game. They just went with a much more complicated model of coordination and control than "that guy gets beat on, this other guy heals everybody, and you pew pew."

Brand new game with a brand new system. Give it time for people to "L2P" just like it took months for all those people new to MMOs to learn how group play worked in WoW.

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 562

9/07/12 1:05:18 PM#37
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Angier2758
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by pags411

I don't think that's the intent.  The idea is that you don't have players who are dedicated to roles in a way that mandates specific compositions of groups and specific specializations of each class.  In other words, a "healing class" would be considered worthless if they wanted to spec for damage in the old model using a trinity.  This game precludes this by saying there is no damage/healing dynamic.  It's reworked to by focused on ideas of damage, control and support which are executed by all players in varying capacities.  It's not that they've removed the need for healing and damage mitigation, but they've redefined and redistributed these responsibilities amongst the entire group and instituting a more democratic approach to group play.  You can't just worry about topping off health bars or holding aggro or maintaing your dps rotation.  You have to pay attention to you, your allies, your enemies, what's happening, what's about to happen, etc.  It feels much more engaged.  It reminds me a lot of playing Halo with friends online. 

 

I don't think this is an innovation that should be widely adopted by every game going forward.  However, I'm very pleased with the step in a distinctly new direction with respect to class roles.  I am interested to see how dungeons feel to me.  Some people love it and others hate it.  I'm inclined to think I'll prefer it simply because I'm so exhausted with the tank and spank approach to PvE.  I think the old paradigm of MMOs will be around for a long, long time, but I'm hopeful that we'll see more companies trying to do things differently.  It's how games have progressed since the beginning of games.  How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?

I have nothing against creating something else to replace the trinity system but however you cut it, you still need to either prevent or heal damage done and I cant see either of these roles being properly done by any class in this game. I mean which class can continously CC mobs to prevent damage? Or have bubbles which are up constantly?

There is a sprinkle of these skills all over the place but not enough for properly managing the damage the party is being dealt and I am not sure how that is an improvment, it just makes you die more often because there is no consistent way of preventing or healing damage.

 I would have to disagree especially on the last part there..... guardian have a lot of ways to prevent damage and some healing.  They just aren't taunts and outright heals.

For example a reflecting wall stops a ton of incoming damage and cc... its up for about 5 or 6 seconds?  Seems long in a fight.    It's counter play are volley style moves or attack that go ground up.

Guardians also have a shield 5 which is a knock back and ranged damage shield.

They also have a small bubble that stops incoming damage, forces enemies out and heals people under it....

They have a much bigger bubble that stops ranged attacks....

I can keep going here... but if you think there's no mitigating damage you're sorely mistaken.

 

Didn't say there wasn't. What I said is that there isn't anyone who can consistently do it because the skills that do exist are on relatively long timers so you can continously keep them up. However I am not experienced enough in Guardians to say for sure but if someone is and can tell me that they can consistently mitigate damage over time then please do tell me how.

i can cc almost a whole fight on enimes that can be cc'ed there are some that cant like any mmo but on thief, i dont have cool downs, i spec'ed for more inititive and for faster regen,  sword dagger combo, when i attack from stealth it blinds or stuns a mob, and the 5 skill puts me in stealth, so i can go in and out of stealth as much as i want, and when i run low i steal for regain inititive

  panapunker

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/12
Posts: 2

9/07/12 1:07:29 PM#38
I remember when i was playing Aion, sometimes i spent more time finding a decent team than making the instance...

also, as a sorcerer i was normally focus in get a good point to dodge any AoE and just spamming spells untill the boss die and wasnt really hard or challenging, now in gw2 its a whole different thing, if you dont work and use your brain you will fail even with 2 guardians full tanks and elementalist focused in healing

in LoL many people hates to play supports because they say its useless, false but there is a problem that not exist in gw2 all your party must work and cooperate to finish a dungeon this is more fun this is different any time you make a dungeon will be different, unique each time you can/will face the dungeon in differents ways and i think this is better than do the same dungeons in the same way all the timeif you prefer easy mode dont play gw2

also the wait to find party its gone and is one of the most great things
  MrReality

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/12
Posts: 44

Keeping it real 24/7

9/07/12 1:07:34 PM#39
I knew this was going to happen. Everyone is so used to the trinity they can't adapt to the new play style. 
  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

9/07/12 1:08:33 PM#40
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by pags411  How could Pong turn into Resident Evil if developers never challenge conventions and imagine bold, new things?

Resident Evil is basically Pac-man. I hope I don't have to explain that. Point being, let's not get carried away here with the "bold" and the "new".

Is Pac-man the master of unlocking?  I think not

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