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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Why do so many think TSW is not a fantasy MMO?

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57 posts found
  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

9/06/12 6:26:42 PM#41
Originally posted by fallenlords

If the hook is the genre, then why pick a genre that has such a niche following.  Don't they want their game to do well?  If the only hook is the genre, pick something that has a bigger following like mainstream fantasy.  It kind of makes no sense in this instance to rely on genre as the hook.   What it needed was a game mechanic that would draw people to play the game and ignore the genre.   Half the problem with TSW is the genre not being appealing to many people apart from Tornquist and a few chums.

 

I don't have a problem if not all MMO's try to cater to the common denominator, BW tried that with SWTOR, others tried that to apply to the exact mainstream base that liked WoW mechanics or high fantasy, which is the reason the MMO field has grown far more stale than it was before. MMO's in the first years managed to be profitable with like 50-100k of subs and still delivered rich, entertaining MMO worlds. So no, I want MMO companies to not go for the mainstream settings and mechanics only. Horror/suspense themes/conspiracy like TSW has and Undead Labs' zombie MMO will have and World of Darkness, yes, please. If other MMO companies want to go for more user content generation tools, great, or for FFA PvP, nice although niche, or for more RP tooling and options or for hardcore crafting etc. A number of those ideas may not be 'mainstream', but the more diversity the better.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10880

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/06/12 7:17:51 PM#42


Originally posted by Nomis278
As has no doubt been said multiple times so far in this thread, it's urban fantasy.

 

There's a shed load of books in classed as urban fantasy these days, some of them are pretty good. 

 

 




A lot of them are really good. It doesn't seem like they've pulled from current urban fantasy novels though. Jim Butcher, Kelley Armstrong and Kim Harrison are all current urban fantasy authors with books going back at least 5 years. Mike Shevdon is a newer author, but same thing, urban fantasy (I'd recommend looking his 3 novels up, they are pretty good). TSW doesn't seem that familiar to me. I've read a boatload of H.P. Lovecraft, Stephen King and Dean R. Koontz as well, and I didn't get a familiar vibe there either.

Niche is fine...it makes sense to shoot for a specific audience, I'm just not sure the audience they've crafted this game for actually plays games. They watch the "Aliens Did It" guy on History Channel.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Uccisore

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 95

9/06/12 8:00:39 PM#43
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Uccisore

     Play with words all you want.  The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system.  Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.

 

Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system.   Now you see why the game didn't sell.   If the setting has mass appeal then you are on to a winner, well no the setting does not have mass appeal.  If the progression system is that far advanced that it is termed revolutionary, a word Tornquist likes to use, then perhaps that would of been a draw.  But you scratch the surface on that and you can see levels and classes reworked - in fact opting to get away from traditional levels could be argued has been detrimental to the whole game.

 

       Well, where does that leave ME, though?  Sure, Funcom could have made yet another bullshit fantasy game with elves and orcs and crap, using the same leveling system as WoW and Star Wars and Everquest and a billion other games, but then I wouldn't play it because I'm tired of all that shit.   So what's your point? I should encourage developers to make WoW over and over again until the goddamned stars burn out?  I didn't like the original world of warcraft, why do I want anybody to make the 50,000th rip off of it?  I don't work for Funcom, my motivation here is not "I hope Funcom succeeds as a company even if they do it by making crap I would never play."

     As far as the progression system in the game being classes and levels once you 'scratch the surface', you're just incorrect. it's not much at all like a standard level/class progression system. You're just playing with words, like I talked about in previous posts.

 

 

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

9/06/12 8:17:55 PM#44
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Uccisore

     Play with words all you want.  The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system.  Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.

 

Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system.   Now you see why the game didn't sell. 

This is why we end up with the same, Fantasy, elves and dwarves setting.

Generic MMO after Generic MMO.

Because ultimately Fallenlords is right, more player are like him and don't want something new or original.

So game companies don't try anything new, don't try to be original, just  create the same old same old.

And people wonder why MMO's have gottens stagnant.

  Uccisore

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 95

9/06/12 8:50:51 PM#45
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Uccisore

     Play with words all you want.  The fact, however phrased, is that the game's two most original features are the setting and the progression system.  Saying otherwise isn't fooling anybody who is familiar with the game, and serves only to mislead those who aren't.

 

Two most original features of the game are setting and the progression system.   Now you see why the game didn't sell. 

This is why we end up with the same, Fantasy, elves and dwarves setting.

Generic MMO after Generic MMO.

Because ultimately Fallenlords is right, more player are like him and don't want something new or original.

So game companies don't try anything new, don't try to be original, just  create the same old same old.

And people wonder why MMO's have gottens stagnant.

 

   But there's a huge margin between "Successful enough to turn a decent profit" and "The next WoW".   CCP knows this- Eve Online will never be as big as WoW and I'm sure they knew that from day one.  Funcom seems to know it as well.  There are plenty of developers making games they know won't be League of Legends.  But for some reason, you have a vocal caste of gamer like Fallenlords insisting that it's ever game developers moral obligation to compete for the largest slice of the pie.  Nevermind that it's not good business sense.  They think it is.

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/07/12 4:46:15 AM#46
Originally posted by Uccisore

       Well, where does that leave ME, though?  Sure, Funcom could have made yet another bullshit fantasy game with elves and orcs and crap, using the same leveling system as WoW and Star Wars and Everquest and a billion other games, but then I wouldn't play it because I'm tired of all that shit.   So what's your point? I should encourage developers to make WoW over and over again until the goddamned stars burn out?  I didn't like the original world of warcraft, why do I want anybody to make the 50,000th rip off of it?  I don't work for Funcom, my motivation here is not "I hope Funcom succeeds as a company even if they do it by making crap I would never play."

     As far as the progression system in the game being classes and levels once you 'scratch the surface', you're just incorrect. it's not much at all like a standard level/class progression system. You're just playing with words, like I talked about in previous posts.

Where is leaves you is among a niche group of players supporting a struggling game and company, is where it leaves you.  With a company that on multiple occasions has let down it users, with a company that doesn't listen to their own users and goes in it's own direction.  You like that direction, fair enough, but why anybody in their right mind aims to make a niche game in this day and age I don't know.   Not without incorporating some sort of draw to the actual game itself above and beyond the genre. 

 

As for having a leveless and classless design, it's all there under the surface.   It doesn't have traditional classes or levels I will agree with that.  Much in the same way Skyrim didn't have traditional classes and that is what they said.   But TSW being free of levels and classes is rubbish.   Any sort of progression you have levels. Any sort of 'best build', not unique to an individual player, then you have classes whether they are system defined or not.

 

I think you need to encourage developers to make good games.  Just because a game is niche doesn't mean it's a bad game.  But this isn't a one off game that can mill around for a year then suddenly get cult recognition.   This is suppose to be an MMO, MMO's are suppose to appeal to a very large audience.  In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.
  Vannor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/03
Posts: 2997

9/07/12 5:09:51 AM#47

Fantasy has many sub genres, this is true for every genre based medium. Horror, Dark Fantasy, Science Fiction (with it's own sub-genres; Zombie, Alien, Dystopian Future, etc.), Supernatural, High Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, etc... would be a very long list for them all. Essentially anything that is not true to the real world as we know it is Fantasy (Supernatural is questionable because some people believe it to be real). Even religous events (miracles) are defined as Fantasy from a purely scientific point of view.

Just about every industry split it into three smaller areas though; Sci-Fi, Horror and Fantasy. It's easier to market and easier for viewers to understand what to expect. The majority has adopted these genres as seperate now, regardless of whether or not the definitions of each blend into each other. It's how the world works and it works better for it, simple as that.

 

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

9/07/12 4:26:45 PM#48
Originally posted by fallenlords
  In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.

 

This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.
  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

9/07/12 6:46:13 PM#49
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
Originally posted by Uccisore

    There's a guy on the TSW forums that will insist that the game is of the Super Hero genre if you ask him.  I mean, you get powers, you fight bad guys. You have a secret identity.  He wants funcom to release capes and masks and unitards so it will be even more like what it already is.

    Speaking of tards, it's not a fantasy game, either.  Just because there's this thing called "Urban Fantasy" that shares an 'f' word with another genre, doesn't mean much.  Yeah, it's got magic and shit in it.  If you really want your genre categories to be so broad that "it's got magic and shit in it" makes something fantasy, then that's your problem. You end up with there being like, 4 possible genres.

      In the end, there's only one criteria that matters.  if somebody comes up to you and says  "What's the setting of The Secret World?"  and you answer "It's a fantasy game,"  then you're being a misleading nincompoop.  You can argue semantics and technicalities all you want. In the end, that's all that matters.

 

My point is, the OP is setting up paper tigers. Who is arguing that there are not fantasy elements in the game? It takes a little from everything, that is the point of the game.

Fantasy has a specific meaning when it comes to genre. It means Dwarves, Elves, Dragons and princesses. If a person says it isn't "Fantasy" that is what they mean 

 

This. When most people think of fantasy in MMOs, they aren't thinking of zombies. The setting is just one of many thinngs that makes TSW different from the rest. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/08/12 5:25:31 AM#50
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by fallenlords
  In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.

 This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.


I think TSW stretches the definition of an MMO.  200,000 sales which means about half haven't continued their subscription. Means perhaps about 100,000 current players of which not all will be online at the same time.  Just because it's designed as an MMO doesn't mean it deserves the title. 

 

Like I say how you can use the word Massively, when you get more players online in a simple multiplayer game I don't know.  Just because there is a persistent world being hosted - you should have a minimum number of players to use the word Massively.  WoW is an MMO with 10 million subs.   But there is a universe of difference between 100,000 and 10 million. Yeah I would say to be able to use the title of Massively you need an average of 500,000 players/subs.

 

Age of Conan is a great game, poorly executed, poorly implemented and poorly supported.  But a great game that had massive 'potential'.  Which was not realised by Funcom, hence the hatred of the latter.  If you can take something with great potential and a known IP, then turn it to mush.  What real chance do you think these people are going to have with an unknown sub-genre game that has not evolved the MMO in any sense.
  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

9/08/12 10:08:24 AM#51
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by fallenlords
  In this game they have just made a Multiplayer Online Role Player Game - an MORPG. The term Massively can't really be used with such poor sales figures and such niche appeal.

 This is complete and utter nonsense. I think you simply don't like FC and bc you dislike them, you also dislike all of their games. The number of sales or what setting they use have absolutely nothing at all to do whether a game is an MMORPG or not. According to you, as good none of the first MMORPG's and over 90% of the current MMORPG's aren't MMO's, for a dumb reason like that their sales aren't over a million or bc the genre isn't high fantasy or mainstream scifi.


I think TSW stretches the definition of an MMO.  200,000 sales which means about half haven't continued their subscription. Means perhaps about 100,000 current players of which not all will be online at the same time.  Just because it's designed as an MMO doesn't mean it deserves the title. 

 

Like I say how you can use the word Massively, when you get more players online in a simple multiplayer game I don't know.  Just because there is a persistent world being hosted - you should have a minimum number of players to use the word Massively.  WoW is an MMO with 10 million subs.   But there is a universe of difference between 100,000 and 10 million. Yeah I would say to be able to use the title of Massively you need an average of 500,000 players/subs.

 

I love when posters start making up their own definitions just to bash a game.  It doesn't matter if the MMO has 100,000 or 10 million. It's still a MMO.
 
By your standard,, very few MMos on the market  would qualify to be MMOs. I'm sure that will be news to the players that have been playing games like EVE for years to all of a sudden find out that all those people they were playing with for years wasn't in a MMO.  Or how about UO, which even in it's best day never amassed 500,000 players? 
 
Sorry, but your opinion is not the measuring stick by which companies or this site use to label a game MMORPG. Get off your high horse and just accept that not every game was meant to be liked by you. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2507

9/08/12 10:13:12 AM#52

I don't trust wikipidea for definitions.

From Oxford Dictionary:

"a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure, especially in a setting other than the real world."

With that in mind, one could argue anything with magic is fantasy.  And to a point it is.  But Fantasy is really more of a general genre.  I, personally, wouldn't classify TSW as that because it is set in the real world, albeit a magically-infused one.

Fantasy, traditionally, for me suggests medieval fantasy.  But I guess one could make an argument for TSW.

 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/08/12 1:16:46 PM#53
Originally posted by ktanner

 

I love when posters start making up their own definitions just to bash a game.  It doesn't matter if the MMO has 100,000 or 10 million. It's still a MMO.
 
By your standard,, very few MMos on the market  would qualify to be MMOs. I'm sure that will be news to the players that have been playing games like EVE for years to all of a sudden find out that all those people they were playing with for years wasn't in a MMO.  Or how about UO, which even in it's best day never amassed 500,000 players? 
 
Sorry, but your opinion is not the measuring stick by which companies or this site use to label a game MMORPG. Get off your high horse and just accept that not every game was meant to be liked by you. 

Considering the main meaning of the word massive is large or imposing or large in comparison to the usual amount. Then the term massively means to a massive degree or manner.  How is TSW in any way a 'Massively' Multiplayer game?  WoW is an MMO, because compared to ordinary multiplayer games they have a massive amount of players and subscribers.  TSW launched in 2012 in comparison to other games 100,000 potential users in this day and age is chicken feed. 

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

9/08/12 1:40:06 PM#54
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by ktanner

 

I love when posters start making up their own definitions just to bash a game.  It doesn't matter if the MMO has 100,000 or 10 million. It's still a MMO.
 
By your standard,, very few MMos on the market  would qualify to be MMOs. I'm sure that will be news to the players that have been playing games like EVE for years to all of a sudden find out that all those people they were playing with for years wasn't in a MMO.  Or how about UO, which even in it's best day never amassed 500,000 players? 
 
Sorry, but your opinion is not the measuring stick by which companies or this site use to label a game MMORPG. Get off your high horse and just accept that not every game was meant to be liked by you. 

Considering the main meaning of the word massive is large or imposing or large in comparison to the usual amount. Then the term massively means to a massive degree or manner.  How is TSW in any way a 'Massively' Multiplayer game?  WoW is an MMO, because compared to ordinary multiplayer games they have a massive amount of players and subscribers.  TSW launched in 2012 in comparison to other games 100,000 potential users in this day and age is chicken feed. 

When you are in WOW, do you see 10 million people playing at the same time?  No. At best you will see a couple hundred playing in a given area. That is what is meant by massive. Some games are more massive than others, but just because one MMO has less players than others doesn't mean it no longer qualifies as an MMO. 

Something else to consider, not everyone cares that the game they are playing has same number or type of players as WOW. In fact many of us consider that difference to be a strength for many reasons ;)

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/08/12 7:17:23 PM#55
Originally posted by ktanner3

When you are in WOW, do you see 10 million people playing at the same time?  No. At best you will see a couple hundred playing in a given area. That is what is meant by massive. Some games are more massive than others, but just because one MMO has less players than others doesn't mean it no longer qualifies as an MMO. 

Something else to consider, not everyone cares that the game they are playing has same number or type of players as WOW. In fact many of us consider that difference to be a strength for many reasons ;)

10 million subscribers is MASSIVE.   Less than a 100k in this day and age is not massive by any stretch of the imagination.  You get more people than that online for a simple multiplayer game. If you argument is that by having a few hundred players in one place at one time is the definition of Massive - then that makes little sense.  Average number of players per concurrent session for multiplayer games has risen. So to be massive you would need to be talking thousands of players in the same place at the same time.

 

Yes I realise people like to play small, niche games ...almost in opposition to the more successful games. But like I say when a game probably has less players than a multiplayer game, I don't know how it can still successfully be termed Massively Multiplayer.  Because in comparison it no longer meets that definition. WoW still meets that definition 10million subscribers that is massive even by today's standards.
  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

9/08/12 7:46:24 PM#56
Originally posted by grimal

I don't trust wikipidea for definitions.

From Oxford Dictionary:

"a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure, especially in a setting other than the real world."

With that in mind, one could argue anything with magic is fantasy.  And to a point it is.  But Fantasy is really more of a general genre.  I, personally, wouldn't classify TSW as that because it is set in the real world, albeit a magically-infused one.

Fantasy, traditionally, for me suggests medieval fantasy.  But I guess one could make an argument for TSW.

 

I agree to an extent. If you are talking about fantasy in a general sense. Sort of like Man meaning mankind, instead of Man meaning one single man.

Fantasy (or speculative fiction) in an overall sense, includes the genres of  Fantasy, (Tolkein) Science fiction, (Star wars) Horror, (Stephen King) Steam Punk (Don't read it), Mythology (Zeus, Olympus) Alternate reality, (Harry Potter) Time travel (The time machine) and probably a whole bunch more I am missing. If you are talking Fantasy in that broad of a scope then ever MMO is a fantasy MMO.

However; Fantasy as a genre has a specific meaning, It means dwarves, elves, castles, chain mail, dragons...

So if you say; this is a Fantasy book, it has a specific meaning. If you say, this is a horror book it has a specific meaning. If you say this is a science fiction book it has a specific meaning.

If TSW were to advertise itself as a Fantasy MMO, it would be false advertising. Because when you say Fantasy MMO you are talking genre and  it has a specific meaning. 

However, TSW takes elements from a lot of different places, Horror, (Lovecraft) Alternate reality (a reality where monsters exist) Fantasy (Swords and Magic) Sci-Fi (new evolution of human beings) Urban fantasy (Magic in a modern setting)

I really am not sure who is arguing that TSW doesn't have fantasy elements, just like it has Horror elements. We are only saying that catagorizing it as Fantasy MMO would be in incorrect genre placement.

 

  Yakamomoto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/12
Posts: 385

9/24/12 6:30:01 PM#57

- because there are no cartoon creatures in it

- and because it is not set in another fantasy fairytale world

- it is rated M for mature

 

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