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General Discussion  » Level scaling... Kind of a joke.

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53 posts found
  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

 
OP  9/06/12 3:20:05 PM#21
Originally posted by Pouf
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by Pouf
Originally posted by Jimmydean

Ok so I recently hit level 80. I finished up my main story quest minus the dungeon boss at the end.

I enjoy exploration, so I decided I'd go back and explore all of the zones I missed on my way to 80. I figured with this amazing level scaling system, these zones would still provide challenges and I'd get to explore.

I was half right. You can definitely go back and explore zones, same as you can in any other game. Where I was wrong was thinking it would be any challenge at all. I have yet to find a mob, Veteran, Champion, Group Event, or otherwise that isn't absolutely demolished by Hundred Blades even though I am scaled to their level. I literally feel like a level 85 running around in the lvl 10 zones in World of Warcraft demolishing everything in my path. 

So I ask, what's the point of level scaling?  Events give about 2k xp, compared to 18-20k at my real level. Items that drop are based on the zones level, not yours. 

The only events that I know of to have scalable loot are the later on dragon meta events - The Shatterer, etc. 

  1. Ok events gives around 12k xp not 20k.... 
  2. If you do an event loop the xp will drop to around 2k
  3. Gear drops to your level even in lower zones and mobs are easier to kill  
I'm 80 my gf is 40 and I played with her last night, i get good xp still because mobs gives around 60% of what a level 78-80 mob gives, but die like 50-60% faster. I found a level 77 yellow axe 2 level 80 blues and 1 level 80 green.. so yea even level 40 mobs will drop end game stock if you are level 80

 

 

What events are you doing that give 12k xp? Must not be the ones in Orr.    And I never felt it necessary to do "event loops". 

 I do the chopper/giant/lissa/raia/acolyte and watever event loop in ORR and yes it's 12k xp

Ahh I leveled with exploration rather than event loops. Maybe constant repetition drops the xp you get, I don't really know. I'd take a screenshot right after event completion to prove it, but your post was entirely off topic to begin with.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2407

World > Quest Progression

9/06/12 3:24:41 PM#22
If you experience something that isn't right about the game send a bug report about it. "but it's not a bug it-", send it anyways if you feel it's not as it should be. Just like the BWE3 being easier there may be something going on they need to look at.

I'm sure down the road they will adjust for a % of gear to be "downgraded" when you go into a lower level area. At the moment only your base stats change to accommodate the area your in.

Since a lot of you are great about communicating here, please feel free to relay any response you get from ANet.
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5981

9/06/12 3:24:50 PM#23
Originally posted by Jimmydean

Ok so I recently hit level 80. I finished up my main story quest minus the dungeon boss at the end.

I enjoy exploration, so I decided I'd go back and explore all of the zones I missed on my way to 80. I figured with this amazing level scaling system, these zones would still provide challenges and I'd get to explore.

I was half right. You can definitely go back and explore zones, same as you can in any other game. Where I was wrong was thinking it would be any challenge at all. I have yet to find a mob, Veteran, Champion, Group Event, or otherwise that isn't absolutely demolished by Hundred Blades even though I am scaled to their level. I literally feel like a level 85 running around in the lvl 10 zones in World of Warcraft demolishing everything in my path. 

So I ask, what's the point of level scaling?  Events give about 2k xp, compared to 18-20k at my real level. Items that drop are based on the zones level, not yours. 

The only events that I know of to have scalable loot are the later on dragon meta events - The Shatterer, etc. 

lol acting like level scaling is the reason you can plow through elite mobs. lol

  fiontar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3705

9/06/12 3:49:06 PM#24

Even at level 80 in a level 15 zone, I'm not one shotting things. Do I kill them more quickly? Yes, I do. Is it easier than fighting mobs in level 80 areas? Heck yeah, not only because I'm more powerful, but because combat becomes more difficult the closer to the level cap you get, which makes low level encounters you scale down for seem very easy in comparison.

I'd be fine if they scaled damage output back a little further when the level range is very wide, but you can still get killed if you aren't paying attention, so defensive scaling seems to be right on.

Will it get tweaked? Depends on the over all feel in the community. I'd like lower level encounters to be a little more difficult, but others may feel differently.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  User Deleted
9/06/12 3:52:16 PM#25
Originally posted by fiontar

Even at level 80 in a level 15 zone, I'm not one shotting things. Do I kill them more quickly? Yes, I do. Is it easier than fighting mobs in level 80 areas? Heck yeah, not only because I'm more powerful, but because combat becomes more difficult the closer to the level cap you get, which makes low level encounters you scale down for seem very easy in comparison.

I'd be fine if they scaled damage output back a little further when the level range is very wide, but you can still get killed if you aren't paying attention, so defensive scaling seems to be right on.

Will it get tweaked? Depends on the over all feel in the community. I'd like lower level encounters to be a little more difficult, but others may feel differently.

But.. combat shouldn't be dependent on your area, but your level. So if I prance into a starter area, I expect mobs to have skills (like knock down, knockback, exc.). Forget the lowbies, they have to deal with me being there expecting that same challenge I got in that level 80 zone. Not my fault they have no skills and haven't figured out their class yet.

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

9/06/12 3:54:14 PM#26
Originally posted by Clocksimus
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

You are seriously over exaggerating OP, mobs do drop loot that scales to your level and in WoW they wouldn't even be able to hit you while you could 1 hit them with your auto-attack.

Yes it's much easier, but not to the level that you are suggesting.

So you guys can admit that its easier but not admit the system doesn't work? Even though the system was designed so that content would not be trivial?

 

Down-Leveling syetem: To make all content always require effort.

Down-Leveling system: Does not make all content always require effort.

Dwon-Level system - working as intended?

How?

 

See that tricky little word 'all?'    That's how I know you're not being honest.    Certainly not in light of ANet's stated goal and purpose which was to make the lower level zones remain relevant to players who have out-leveled them.

 

You can still be killed.   But you're much more powerful so it's more difficult for you to be killed.   Unike most MMOs where the starter area mobs can't even hurt you.

 

And it's not like they have never bothered to explain it...:

 

In PvE, a character's effective level and attributes are automatically reduced based on the enemy levels immediately around the player, and there can be numerous level scalings per area/zone. They retain access to all of their skills and equipment so the area is easier because of this, but should still be challenging to play.

The benefits of this are:

  • high level characters are prevented from killing enemies too easily and depriving low level characters of rewards;
  • low level content doesn't become obsolete once a character reaches a higher level.

A scaled down character continues to receive experience and loot that is 'good' for their real level, but it is somewhat less efficient for obtaining experience and items than playing level-appropriate content

 

That's what ANet says.   That's what ANet has always said.   They never said it would remain the same level of challenge as when you were an unskilled, crap-geared newbie fresh off the Level 1 boat...    And to make an argument based on that false premise is fail.

 

It would be helpful, in the future, if you actually criticized what ANet actually said instead of what the trolls say ANet has said...

 

 

  Nevulus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1219

9/06/12 3:56:03 PM#27

I hope the downscaling gets tweeked. As it stands, I am not 1-shotting things, but I am 3 shotting them. 

I WANTED to be able to go to lower lvl zones and still have a challenge, right now as it stands there is no challenge. I was slightly disappointed, but meh. Small flaw in an otherwise great game. 

 

Why do you ask some people won't admit that it is not working as previously intended? Because they will not admit their precious isn't so precious after all.

  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

 
OP  9/06/12 3:59:48 PM#28
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Clocksimus
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

You are seriously over exaggerating OP, mobs do drop loot that scales to your level and in WoW they wouldn't even be able to hit you while you could 1 hit them with your auto-attack.

Yes it's much easier, but not to the level that you are suggesting.

So you guys can admit that its easier but not admit the system doesn't work? Even though the system was designed so that content would not be trivial?

 

Down-Leveling syetem: To make all content always require effort.

Down-Leveling system: Does not make all content always require effort.

Dwon-Level system - working as intended?

How?

 

See that tricky little word 'all?'    That's how I know you're not being honest.    Certainly not in light of ANet's stated goal and purpose which was to make the lower level zones remain relevant to players who have out-leveled them.

 

You can still be killed.   But you're much more powerful so it's more difficult for you to be killed.   Unike most MMOs where the starter area mobs can't even hurt you.

 

And it's not like they have never bothered to explain it...:

 

, BUT SHOULD STILL BE CHALLENGING TO PLAY.

 

Yea, this was my point all along.

  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

9/06/12 4:01:26 PM#29
Originally posted by Jimmydean

Ok so I recently hit level 80. I finished up my main story quest minus the dungeon boss at the end.

I enjoy exploration, so I decided I'd go back and explore all of the zones I missed on my way to 80. I figured with this amazing level scaling system, these zones would still provide challenges and I'd get to explore.

I was half right. You can definitely go back and explore zones, same as you can in any other game. Where I was wrong was thinking it would be any challenge at all. I have yet to find a mob, Veteran, Champion, Group Event, or otherwise that isn't absolutely demolished by Hundred Blades even though I am scaled to their level. I literally feel like a level 85 running around in the lvl 10 zones in World of Warcraft demolishing everything in my path. 

So I ask, what's the point of level scaling?  Events give about 2k xp, compared to 18-20k at my real level. Items that drop are based on the zones level, not yours. 

The only events that I know of to have scalable loot are the later on dragon meta events - The Shatterer, etc. 

Not true at all. I'm level 65 in a 30-40 zones and mobs drop gear around level 50, sometimes lower, sometimes higher.

As for you thinkin it would be a challenge... well I'm level 65 and hundred blades pretty much takes a level 65 mob down to 20% or lower health. The skill itself is OP. You want a challenge , try rolling another class or another weapon set.

  User Deleted
9/06/12 4:01:40 PM#30
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Clocksimus
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

You are seriously over exaggerating OP, mobs do drop loot that scales to your level and in WoW they wouldn't even be able to hit you while you could 1 hit them with your auto-attack.

Yes it's much easier, but not to the level that you are suggesting.

So you guys can admit that its easier but not admit the system doesn't work? Even though the system was designed so that content would not be trivial?

 

Down-Leveling syetem: To make all content always require effort.

Down-Leveling system: Does not make all content always require effort.

Dwon-Level system - working as intended?

How?

 

See that tricky little word 'all?'    That's how I know you're not being honest.    Certainly not in light of ANet's stated goal and purpose which was to make the lower level zones remain relevant to players who have out-leveled them.

 

You can still be killed.   But you're much more powerful so it's more difficult for you to be killed.   Unike most MMOs where the starter area mobs can't even hurt you.

 

And it's not like they have never bothered to explain it...:

 

, BUT SHOULD STILL BE CHALLENGING TO PLAY.

 

Yea, this was my point all along.

A point you tried to make by using starter zones as your main grounding. Sorry, but can't take you seriously with that kind of information.

  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

9/06/12 4:04:47 PM#31
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Jimmydean

Ok so I recently hit level 80. I finished up my main story quest minus the dungeon boss at the end.

I enjoy exploration, so I decided I'd go back and explore all of the zones I missed on my way to 80. I figured with this amazing level scaling system, these zones would still provide challenges and I'd get to explore.

I was half right. You can definitely go back and explore zones, same as you can in any other game. Where I was wrong was thinking it would be any challenge at all. I have yet to find a mob, Veteran, Champion, Group Event, or otherwise that isn't absolutely demolished by Hundred Blades even though I am scaled to their level. I literally feel like a level 85 running around in the lvl 10 zones in World of Warcraft demolishing everything in my path. 

So I ask, what's the point of level scaling?  Events give about 2k xp, compared to 18-20k at my real level. Items that drop are based on the zones level, not yours. 

The only events that I know of to have scalable loot are the later on dragon meta events - The Shatterer, etc. 

I had a couple zones going back that gave me loot for my level on like a level 15 event.

You can get gear at your level wherever you go, but crafting supplies will stay unique to that level of the zone.

I gotta ask where you even went, because if you really thought that the lower level zones would be harder or as hard as the higher level ones... then you're clearly mistaken. They scaled combat up as you went, so after having that combat scaled back down, of course it will seem easier, not sure what you were expecting at all... But if you pull 20+ mobs in a normal game at a place thats even only 10 lvls below you, you will dodge almost every attack and they hit you for barely anything if they do, then you blow on them and they are gone. If scaling meant nothing, then lower level dungeons would be a joke as well, which is not the case. So honestly think about what you are writing, before your write it. Did you expect a challenge when you were in a lvl 30 and lower zone before, why would now be any different?

I believe the argument to "why would now would be any different" is because that is what the point of level scaling was suppose to be,  we were tolld  you can go back to any zone you missed and have it still be challenging.  Without that level scaling is kind of a joke, basically it equates to putting someone in a 1 on 1 match with Kobi Bryant and saying here you start with 10 points now its a fair match.

  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

 
OP  9/06/12 4:05:26 PM#32
Originally posted by eggy08
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Clocksimus
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

You are seriously over exaggerating OP, mobs do drop loot that scales to your level and in WoW they wouldn't even be able to hit you while you could 1 hit them with your auto-attack.

Yes it's much easier, but not to the level that you are suggesting.

So you guys can admit that its easier but not admit the system doesn't work? Even though the system was designed so that content would not be trivial?

 

Down-Leveling syetem: To make all content always require effort.

Down-Leveling system: Does not make all content always require effort.

Dwon-Level system - working as intended?

How?

 

See that tricky little word 'all?'    That's how I know you're not being honest.    Certainly not in light of ANet's stated goal and purpose which was to make the lower level zones remain relevant to players who have out-leveled them.

 

You can still be killed.   But you're much more powerful so it's more difficult for you to be killed.   Unike most MMOs where the starter area mobs can't even hurt you.

 

And it's not like they have never bothered to explain it...:

 

, BUT SHOULD STILL BE CHALLENGING TO PLAY.

 

Yea, this was my point all along.

A point you tried to make by using starter zones as your main grounding. Sorry, but can't take you seriously with that kind of information.

I actually moved on to a level 40 zone just to check out your theory. Do mobs have more HP than lower level zones? Yep. Do I still kill them 10x faster than I did at that level? Yep. Do I have any worries of dying no matter how much of something I pull? Nope. 

Does this defeat the entire purpose of level scaling? Yep. 

I'll let ya know as soon as I see a lvl 70+ item drop. Don't hold your breath.

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

9/06/12 4:06:13 PM#33
Originally posted by Jimmydean

 

Once again, nothing that I posted in my OP was an opinion besides the title. It was simply observations. The level scaling system doesn't work as was intended, this is all I was stating and I backed it up by actual observations rather than conjecture based on Arena Net Developers manifesto.

 

It works exactly as intended.   They have spelled it out, in black-and-white, how it works.   Just because YOU failed to comprehend what the developer said, doesn't mean it's not working.  Once again:

 

In PvE, a character's effective level and attributes are automatically reduced based on the enemy levels immediately around the player, and there can be numerous level scalings per area/zone. They retain access to all of their skills and equipment so the area is easier because of this, but should still be challenging to play.  [ED -- This means you can die at high level in a starter zone if you're a fool, unlike most MMOs where, even if the mobs aggroed on you, your damage mitigation alone makes it impossible.]

The benefits of this are:

  • high level characters are prevented from killing enemies too easily and depriving low level characters of rewards;
  • low level content doesn't become obsolete once a character reaches a higher level.

A scaled down character continues to receive experience and loot that is 'good' for their real level, but it is somewhat less efficient for obtaining experience and items than playing level-appropriate content.

 

Notice they said 'good' AND they tell you it's not nearly as efficient.   And it's true.   I have gone back to starter areas with friends.   The gear is not nearly (on average) as good but I have gotten a few level-appropriate greens (masterwork) items.  The XP is lower (about one-third-ish...).   The challenge is less, but if you're a fool you can get yourself killed.

 

It would be nice if you actually understood the goals and desigh of the system you're criticizing.   Because clearly you don't.   The goal is simple -- no face-roll XP farming, no farming elite drops by exploiting the system, BUT, you get some reward and challenge out of lower-level areas allowing you to, with one character, experience a very broad world.

 

 

  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

 
OP  9/06/12 4:07:45 PM#34
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by Jimmydean

 

Once again, nothing that I posted in my OP was an opinion besides the title. It was simply observations. The level scaling system doesn't work as was intended, this is all I was stating and I backed it up by actual observations rather than conjecture based on Arena Net Developers manifesto.

 

It works exactly as intended.   They have spelled it out, in black-and-white, how it works.   Just because YOU failed to comprehend what the developer said, doesn't mean it's not working.  Once again:

 

In PvE, a character's effective level and attributes are automatically reduced based on the enemy levels immediately around the player, and there can be numerous level scalings per area/zone. They retain access to all of their skills and equipment so the area is easier because of this, but should still be challenging to play.  [ED -- This means you can die at high level in a starter zone if you're a fool, unlike most MMOs where, even if the mobs aggroed on you, your damage mitigation alone makes it impossible.]

The benefits of this are:

  • high level characters are prevented from killing enemies too easily and depriving low level characters of rewards;
  • low level content doesn't become obsolete once a character reaches a higher level.

A scaled down character continues to receive experience and loot that is 'good' for their real level, but it is somewhat less efficient for obtaining experience and items than playing level-appropriate content.

 

Notice they said 'good' AND they tell you it's not nearly as efficient.   And it's true.   I have gone back to starter areas with friends.   The gear is not nearly (on average) as good but I have gotten a few level-appropriate greens (masterwork) items.  The XP is lower (about one-third-ish...).   The challenge is less, but if you're a fool you can get yourself killed.

 

It would be nice if you actually understood the goals and desigh of the system you're criticizing.   Because clearly you don't.   The goal is simple -- no face-roll XP farming, no farming elite drops by exploiting the system, BUT, you get some reward and challenge out of lower-level areas allowing you to, with one character, experience a very broad world.

 

 

Quote; [ED -- This means you can die at high level in a starter zone if you're a fool, unlike most MMOs where, even if the mobs aggroed on you, your damage mitigation alone makes it impossible.]

You have a very skewed idea of what "challenging" means.

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

9/06/12 4:10:34 PM#35
Originally posted by Jimmydean

 

I actually moved on to a level 40 zone just to check out your theory. Do mobs have more HP than lower level zones? Yep. Do I still kill them 10x faster than I did at that level? Yep. Do I have any worries of dying no matter how much of something I pull? Nope. 

Does this defeat the entire purpose of level scaling? Yep. 

I'll let ya know as soon as I see a lvl 70+ item drop. Don't hold your breath.

 

No you don't.    I know it.   You know it.   Everyone that reads your hyperbole and has played this games knows it.    Enjoy your QQ.   I've got better things to do than argue with someone who is clearly telling tales.

 

 

  Mithrandolir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1700

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

9/06/12 4:11:13 PM#36

To me it's not a joke at all, it's brilliant in it's implementation. I am, however, not 80 yet, I am only 33. So I will come back when I am higher and report if I feel the same as i do now.

For now, at 33, I have like 10 or 11 zones that I can level in at any given moment, as well as 5 cities to explore and hang out in. And all of it still presents a challenge and all of it still presents meaningful loot for my level. Each of those 10 leveling zones has a lot of content too and I am deeply immersed in the game world.

So for me it's a great feature so far. Hopefully it stays this way. Maybe they have to adjust the downward scaling of some skills to keep it challenging...

 

 

  Umbrood

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/03
Posts: 1842

9/06/12 4:11:31 PM#37

I would imagine that if you equipped green or blue gear quite a few lvls below you things would be different.

The lvl scaling seems percentage based.

I assume at 80 you are in either yellow or orange lvl 80 gear, nicely glyphed to boot?

Most people while leveling are not in in equal lvl rare or exotics.

Probably meaning that your stats as a lvled down 20 something is way beyond that of an actual lvl 20 something.

I do not see a way to change the scaling system without making everything impossible to beat unless your gear is very very good at all lvls.

Making lvl 80 characters scale differently then 1-79 would be sort of a solution but that actually seems unfair to the lvl 80 crowd.

What solution to this would be acceptable?

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Originally posted by Jerek_

I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2407

World > Quest Progression

9/06/12 4:18:49 PM#38
Jimmydean

I agree with you, content should be more challenging than 1-3 shotting mobs no matter what the discrepancy on a normal basis (OP skills aside). Start or add to threads on GW2 Guru and Reddit, places we know ANet watches, and link it to us. I guarantee 99% of us here will add or at least look. What you're doing now is venting which I can see but not so effective.

That is unless linking those sites is against ToS here, then don't. I'm horrible about knowing those.
  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

9/06/12 4:20:48 PM#39
Originally posted by Umbrood

I would imagine that if you equipped green or blue gear quite a few lvls below you things would be different.

The lvl scaling seems percentage based.

I assume at 80 you are in either yellow or orange lvl 80 gear, nicely glyphed to boot?

Most people while leveling are not in in equal lvl rare or exotics.

Probably meaning that your stats as a lvled down 20 something is way beyond that of an actual lvl 20 something.

I do not see a way to change the scaling system without making everything impossible to beat unless your gear is very very good at all lvls.

Making lvl 80 characters scale differently then 1-79 would be sort of a solution but that actually seems unfair to the lvl 80 crowd.

What solution to this would be acceptable?

Easy way to change it would be use a cap system instead of a % system.  So instead of cutting that 200 power in quarter to 50 for a level 20 zone just look at what level 20 gear gives players, lets say 30 power for example(I made up that number btw) then cap power at 30 for level 20 scaled zones.  This would be a lot more accurate then a % scaling system since % don't go up equally through the levels, it would however be much more work I'm sure.

  Clocksimus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/10
Posts: 356

9/06/12 4:21:14 PM#40

I am done replying to GW2 threads I think. I must have missed being hit by the hypnotoad that zapped people into this GW2 state of mind because, in defense they prove that what they saying is wrong but still continue to ignore fact that they proved their oppositions point.

It can't be easy and yet still hard.

You can't kill steal in GW2 so what is this point about preventing players from griefing lower levels?

The content is still blown though because it is easier anyways so again what is the point of this system?

You are rewarding higher lvl players in lower level zones in a system designed to prevent higher lvl players from camping lower level zones..... what?  Yes the system is partly deisgned to stop higher levels from griefing lower levels as they said that right?  If the content offered no rewards you'd think that would be a better method than giving them rewards.... but hey I'm sure this all makes sense to anyone  having a blast in GW2 so what other people think  is irrelevant.

GW2 is a great game. It's has its flaws like every game before it and hopefully they get fixed instead of being ignored untill everyone just gets tired of the game and quits.

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