Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by maji

We buy movie ticket. Movie ends. We lost money?

Depends on what you expected. As long as I'm entertained well, I wouldn't call the money lost.

If the movie is 2 hours long, and they only let you watch 1.5 hours, and you do not get to se the last 30 mins, then yes. Which is what it has been like with SWG and CoH

The rest of us were paying monthly. Can you link to the news item or press release on that advanced payment per level plan you were on?

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by superniceguy

You should have said MMOs do not last forever.

But they seriosully are taking the biscuit now, instaed of leaving game running for a few more months in a non profit or a little bit profitable (but not loss) scenario, they chop games when it is still profitable...

Source?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5274188

PLus the fact that Paragon Studios are trying to save City of Heroes. If it was not profitable, they would not bother.

Originally posted by Xobdnas

The new trend in MMORPG's as of late is closing up and going away. I'm fine with that and I understand that. Where it gets weird is the fact that we purchased a product, a product we thought we would be able to continue using. Then the company pulls the plug and our purchase becomes worthless. We can no longer use said product.

I then look at songs. We pay for the right to use said songs on our devices but we never own the song?

When you buy a song you really only buy the license for it, this is true, but that in no way impacts your ability to listen to it forever.

Online hosted games are a diffferent thing though... You are not 'buying' anything here, you are renting a service. You simply do not OWN anything (worth bearing in mind if your the kind of dupe that spends a ton in a cash shop).

Is this 'right'? Well, yeah, because no one represented it in any other way and the choice of using that service is with the consumer.

Is it a good deal for the customer? That's for the consumer to decide I guess, but I agree a change of perspective is needed for many. If more started see these 'purchases' as renting rather then owning it might change how they see cash shops. Or it might not.

But, as ever, the choice is yours. Embrace it or reject it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by maji

We buy movie ticket. Movie ends. We lost money?

Depends on what you expected. As long as I'm entertained well, I wouldn't call the money lost.

If the movie is 2 hours long, and they only let you watch 1.5 hours, and you do not get to se the last 30 mins, then yes. Which is what it has been like with SWG and CoH

The rest of us were paying monthly. Can you link to the news item or press release on that advanced payment per level plan you were on?

 

What?

It is only a hypotehetical situation.

The fact the Paragon Studios is trying to save CoH (as linked in my previous post), means that the game was shut down too early

CoH is the first MMO to blatantly do so. as even with SWG, SOE did not try to save SWG afterwards, so is not so publicly known as being shut down before its time.

Last week I paid a 6 months (+1 free) sub to CoH, and have a subscription to March 2013. So will now not be able to play half of that.

Plus if you justbought stuff in the store, and did not have money to buy all the content you want, but buy what you can do today (sometime before the game shut down say Aug 24th), then later buy the rest. Now you can not buy the extra content, and with knowing that you would not be able to buy the content later, then you would not have bought the content on Aug 24th.

Originally posted by superniceguy

But they seriosully are taking the biscuit now, instaed of leaving game running for a few more months in a non profit or a little bit profitable (but not loss) scenario, they chop games when it is still profitable

Earth and Beyond. 

Next argument?

I'll tell you a better way to make this argument more compelling; my virtual loot just evaporated, ex-game-co owes me damages in loss of profits!

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by superniceguy

But they seriosully are taking the biscuit now, instaed of leaving game running for a few more months in a non profit or a little bit profitable (but not loss) scenario, they chop games when it is still profitable

Earth and Beyond. 

Next argument?

What about it?

Originally posted by superniceguy

What about it?

Closed in 2004, by the company, while still making money.  Pretty much the industry first, but almost a decade ago now.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by superniceguy

What about it?

Closed in 2004, by the company, while still making money.  Pretty much the industry first, but almost a decade ago now.

I guess ALL MMOS are making profitts when they shut down, they just shut them down before they stop making a profit, but lately they do it at the last minute and while devs are still working on content, making you feel safe that the game is still going OK. People only assume MMOs get shut down because it is not profitable.

But ws it a F2P game with a cash shop? Did it have updates still coming?

The only thing I am at a loss with COH atm is that I paid for a 6 months subs about 2 weeks ago, and they have not mentioned anygthing yet about refunding us on things like this. If the game had gone into maintenance mode, and no updates had come for many months, and nothing on the horizion, I would not risk paying 6 months sub, nor spend loads in the shop. Their silence ensures people still keep paying, right until the end and then get shafted atshort notices, but now it is backfiring, as can no longer trust companies with MMOs.

With SWG, I did not buy TCG stuff, but I did keep subbing extra accounts to SWG, so I could get the 5 free booster packs, and hope I get a loot card, to get an item I want. As soon as they announced the closure, it was no longer possible to get a loot card and item from these packs, so the fact of subbing multiple accounts for months, became a total waste of money. If they let it run for a few more weeks or a month, then I could have claimed the loot cards. SOE could not give a refund on the subs/loot cards, as the TCG cards were free with the monthly sub. Had I known or saw a closure coming I would have claimed the cards that I paid for via subs, and then not subbed them any more. I would have only subbed the accounts then if the extra accounts gave me fun.

In CoH they have shut down the shop, and if you are a free player you can not buy a sub (unless a time card works) or buy more points from the store, to enjoy the rest of the content over the next few months, and if you can get a time card to work then the content you purchased before the closure announcement could be a waste of money, if you get it with being a VIP. They should either allow subs and buying more points for a few more weeks or let everything in the store cost 0 points.

The developers are grossly over protected all becuase of their copyright claims.

You never own or buy a product,you are merely leasing it.It is becuase of that reason the law should force them to label their product as such.Then you have a game  that is F2P you  never really buy and there is no charge for service,so they are basically shrouded from the law.

So in a game that is F2P,your only protection is the faithful 30 day money back guarantee.You pay for no service [sub fee] and just lease the product for 60 bucks.I am pretty sure that as long as you get one month of use,your 60 buck lease is already used up.However you still have that 30 day refund,so perhaps day 29 make a charge back on credit card ,claiming an unfit misleading product.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

And this is probaly why I dont' like online services like Steam and EA origins, I know Valve and Steam are awesome companies right now, and doing very well... but what happens in 10 years when the owner cashes out? and decides to sell it to EA? and then all of my media I paid for (INCLUDING OFFLINE SINGLEPLAYER GAMES) become usless.

 

Example: Supcom2 (supreme commander 2) came out, its a offline single player game (as well as online) I purchased the box version.. get it home, only to realise that I needed to log into steam to play it.. I was like WTF?? even more so because I was at a rented apartment and didn't have internet access at the time. So I had to wait a little over a year to play it.. It wasn't like I needed to log into a sever to play, I litrally online had to log into steam long enough to 'verify" that it was a legit copy.. then I could play it offline all I want..

 

So with items on itunes that we actually purchase (a whole album), content on xboxlive that we purchase (hey I paid close to $20 for castle crashers).. and on and on and on...do we really own that?

 

I know 10 years ago, I bought a VHS.. I could rip it, I bought a tape/cd I could rip and record it... and even with Age of empires 1, I could copy CD's..

So are we buying the product? are we buying a single copy of that product? or are we buying a limited licence that allowes me to use that product untill the REAL owner decideds they want to stop service.

I'm right there with you on the Steam and Origins B.S.  I usualy will refuse to buy a game if it requires Steam or Origins to play. Not that they are neccesarly bad services, in fact they do provide some decent value...but the whole point of an offline single player game is that you can play it OFFLINE.  If the internet goes out, or the services are offline or you are on the road or somewhere else that doesn't have reliable internet access...you can still play those games. With Steam or Origin, you are pretty much SOL...unless maybe you know ahead of time that you won't have access.  It's a raw deal as far as I'm concerned.

Games that are single-player and feature no online components are really doing the consumer a disservice if they require Steam or Origin...one thing to support them as an optional way to play...another thing entirely to require them.

That beiong said, MMO's and other fully online games are a different animal all together. If it's a neccesity of the core game-play that you be online, I've got no problem with that.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
This whole discussion is moot when most MMOs are moving to F2P.

 Not really moot...in fact possibly even more relevant....since economicaly paying for stuff in a cash shop only makes sense for the player if you get to use it over the long term. If you want access to the entire game and everything in it, then sub/VIP is generaly a better deal for the player in the short term. Thus if a game shuts down the day after you bought something expensive in the cash shop....as a consumer it's a pretty much the same situation....you aren't getting much use for your dollar.

Even if you never buy anything in a cash shop...you are effected indirectly....as if a game isn't making sales to SOMEONE,  it definately is going to be closing it's doors.... and if consumers in general lose confidence....companies won't be very inclined to start up new MMO's.

Could see game studios eventually getting in trouble over this especially as the number of MMOs that close down increases and there is an organized consumer backlash.

Many decades ago a similar problem hit the auto industry. The issue was that car companies would stop selling parts for cars that were no longer in production. The car manufacturers took the position that they sold the consumer the car and that they were under no obligation to supply parts for cars they no longer produced even if large numbers of these cars were still in use. Eventually consumers got tired of digging through junk yards looking for spare parts and got an advocacy group to hire some laywers. It was ruled in a few states courts that car companies had to continue producing spare parts for older cars at least 12 years after production ceased.

Some similar ruling will likely come down on the gaming industry to keep legacy servers up and running even after they offially shut down a MMO.

Well it's important to remember one thing, even though at times it feels you are powerless, as consumers we (collectively) hold the ultimate power over these companies. Without our dollars, they can't exist. So if you feel a company isn't treating you right as a customer... vote with your wallet.  In a volume bussiness where each customer isn't spending alot....your individual vote may only count a little bit....but if enough people react the same way as you do, it will start to have an impact.

To this day, there are companies that I simply refuse to do business with....no matter what sort of flashy advertisements or snazzy new products or sales they put out....I just won't give them a dime of my money, based on how they've treated thier customers in the past. At the same time, there are companies (usualy pretty small), who I will go out of my way to support, simply because of the way they've done bussiness with me and the way they stand behind thier products and customers.

Collectively, we get the industry and the companies we've voted for. Unfortunately far too many of us have voted to be treated like crap.... but at least I know my vote isn't going to be among those.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by nariusseldon
This whole discussion is moot when most MMOs are moving to F2P.

 Not really moot...in fact possibly even more relevant....since economicaly paying for stuff in a cash shop only makes sense for the player if you get to use it over the long term. If you want access to the entire game and everything in it, then sub/VIP is generaly a better deal for the player in the short term. Thus if a game shuts down the day after you bought something expensive in the cash shop....as a consumer it's a pretty much the same situation....you aren't getting much use for your dollar.

Even if you never buy anything in a cash shop...you are effected indirectly....as if a game isn't making sales to SOMEONE,  it definately is going to be closing it's doors.... and if consumers in general lose confidence....companies won't be very inclined to start up new MMO's.

Definitely agree with you, in fact I got nailed by the folks who ran Earth Eternal last year.  They ran this big special on some pretty cool cash shop items and I bought about 50 bucks worth.  Two or three weeks later they shut down the game and I felt like I really didn't get good value for my dollar.

In that case, I did feel like I lost money, but normally when a game closes down I don't because usually I've long since moved on.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Dewm

 

And this is probaly why I dont' like online services like Steam and EA origins, I know Valve and Steam are awesome companies right now, and doing very well... but what happens in 10 years when the owner cashes out? and decides to sell it to EA? and then all of my media I paid for (INCLUDING OFFLINE SINGLEPLAYER GAMES) become usless.

 

Example: Supcom2 (supreme commander 2) came out, its a offline single player game (as well as online) I purchased the box version.. get it home, only to realise that I needed to log into steam to play it.. I was like WTF?? even more so because I was at a rented apartment and didn't have internet access at the time. So I had to wait a little over a year to play it.. It wasn't like I needed to log into a sever to play, I litrally online had to log into steam long enough to 'verify" that it was a legit copy.. then I could play it offline all I want..

 

So with items on itunes that we actually purchase (a whole album), content on xboxlive that we purchase (hey I paid close to $20 for castle crashers).. and on and on and on...do we really own that?

 

I know 10 years ago, I bought a VHS.. I could rip it, I bought a tape/cd I could rip and record it... and even with Age of empires 1, I could copy CD's..

So are we buying the product? are we buying a single copy of that product? or are we buying a limited licence that allowes me to use that product untill the REAL owner decideds they want to stop service.

I'm right there with you on the Steam and Origins B.S.  I usualy will refuse to buy a game if it requires Steam or Origins to play. Not that they are neccesarly bad services, in fact they do provide some decent value...but the whole point of an offline single player game is that you can play it OFFLINE.  If the internet goes out, or the services are offline or you are on the road or somewhere else that doesn't have reliable internet access...you can still play those games.

Its funny, most people laugh at that idea "no internet?!?" but it does happen, like in my case I was living there for a little under a year, and in my area the waiting list for DSL is about 8 months long, so we didn't even bother. 

And I shelled out 60 bucks for a OFFLINE SINGLEPLAYER GAME!?!? I was pretty pissed.

(Same thing with Spore, couldn't play it untill you wen't online and registered to Maxis.)

 

With Steam or Origin, you are pretty much SOL...unless maybe you know ahead of time that you won't have access.  It's a raw deal as far as I'm concerned.

Games that are single-player and feature no online components are really doing the consumer a disservice if they require Steam or Origin...one thing to support them as an optional way to play...another thing entirely to require them.

That beiong said, MMO's and other fully online games are a different animal all together. If it's a neccesity of the core game-play that you be online, I've got no problem with that.

 

 

 

 

 

Another trend that I've seen rising, which boils my blood, is console games (like BF3 for xbox) have special codes you enter to play online,

So I friend of mine bought the game, legit from Fred Meyers.. comes over to my house and we can't play online because he already used the code on his profile on his xbox..

And what bugs me about this is, since when did buying a game mean "Only I can play this on MY console on MY profile"...I mean its crap.

I really wish someone with more money then me would take a few of these companies to court.

Its quickly turning into a entertainment business where you "rent" the game for $60.00.

Originally posted by Novusod

Could see game studios eventually getting in trouble over this especially as the number of MMOs that close down increases and there is an organized consumer backlash.

 

Many decades ago a similar problem hit the auto industry. The issue was that car companies would stop selling parts for cars that were no longer in production. The car manufacturers took the position that they sold the consumer the car and that they were under no obligation to supply parts for cars they no longer produced even if large numbers of these cars were still in use. Eventually consumers got tired of digging through junk yards looking for spare parts and got an advocacy group to hire some laywers. It was ruled in a few states courts that car companies had to continue producing spare parts for older cars at least 12 years after production ceased.

 

Some similar ruling will likely come down on the gaming industry to keep legacy servers up and running even after they offially shut down a MMO.

Very intresting post, and I do wish something like this would happen soon.