Originally posted by bonzoso21
 Every product you buy in your lifetime will eventually lose its usefulness.

Good thing I can still pull out the ol' NES and play the original Final Fantasy.. Or Zelda whenever I want..

Originally posted by Xobdnas

The new trend in MMORPG's as of late is closing up and going away. I'm fine with that and I understand that. Where it gets weird is the fact that we purchased a product, a product we thought we would be able to continue using. Then the company pulls the plug and our purchase becomes worthless. We can no longer use said product.

I then look at songs. We pay for the right to use said songs on our devices but we never own the song?

Then I look to consoles, we pay for the console, but if we do anything to said console we can no longer use it?

Then I look at D3...enough said.

Consumers seem to be getting the very raw end of the deal when it comes to digital and technological products. Hopefully this stuff gets sorted out sooner than later, and hopefully the consumer comes out ahead, but looking at history, and at the lobbying power of corporations, I have my doubts.

Says right in the EULA that the game can cease to exist at any time. Gotta pick better games. Try GW2, it will be around for the long haul.

Originally posted by Vyeth

Originally posted by bonzoso21
 Every product you buy in your lifetime will eventually lose its usefulness.

Good thing I can still pull out the ol' NES and play the original Final Fantasy.. Or Zelda whenever I want..

Yes it is, but 20-25 years certainly isn't forever, and eventually--probably not too far in the future now--it'll be fairly uncommon for the average first-world person to have an entertainment setup that will support those older devices. You already can't play the lightgun games unless you've held on to an older CRT set, and it's possible that TV manufacturers could stop making new HDTVs with coax and composite inputs if they decide the added cost (however small) isn't worth it when most people don't use them anymore.

I think the problem here is that our continued enjoyment of  an MMO is wholly unrelated to our enjoyment and willingness to pay.

A player can only be responsible for the player's responsibility: to pay the requisite fees, purchase the initial price, and to follow the rules. 

A player cannot be responsible for matters outside the player's scope: profit margins, consolidations, revenue projections, brand focusing, realignment, etc.  In a sense, however, our continued enjoyment of an MMO rests on these factors far more than it rests on our ability to pay.  Is that fair?  In other words, shouldn't players be able to enjoy the things they buy and lease, so long as they are able and willing to buy and lease the things?

This is a real barrier that I would hope the MMO industry tackles in the next five to ten years as they get smacked around by peer-to-peer social gaming.  Because peer-to-peer doesn't have this kind of problem; you enjoy it as long as you want it to.

Take the recent closure announcement of City of Heroes.  This is a game where the revenue exceeded costs in the realm of $2.5 million dollars a quarter.  In other words, the game continues to turn a steady profit.  And yet, despite this, the game is taken away from people who enjoy it, simply because the provider would rather it make $3 million a quarter, or $10 million a quarter.  Perhaps no amount of profit would do if a publisher decides to take their company in a "new direction."  But how is that the consumer's fault?

It isn't.  Yet this industry penalizes us as if it is: by taking the things we enjoy away from us.

And this is probaly why I dont' like online services like Steam and EA origins, I know Valve and Steam are awesome companies right now, and doing very well... but what happens in 10 years when the owner cashes out? and decides to sell it to EA? and then all of my media I paid for (INCLUDING OFFLINE SINGLEPLAYER GAMES) become usless.

Example: Supcom2 (supreme commander 2) came out, its a offline single player game (as well as online) I purchased the box version.. get it home, only to realise that I needed to log into steam to play it.. I was like WTF?? even more so because I was at a rented apartment and didn't have internet access at the time. So I had to wait a little over a year to play it.. It wasn't like I needed to log into a sever to play, I litrally online had to log into steam long enough to 'verify" that it was a legit copy.. then I could play it offline all I want..

So with items on itunes that we actually purchase (a whole album), content on xboxlive that we purchase (hey I paid close to $20 for castle crashers).. and on and on and on...do we really own that?

I know 10 years ago, I bought a VHS.. I could rip it, I bought a tape/cd I could rip and record it... and even with Age of empires 1, I could copy CD's..

So are we buying the product? are we buying a single copy of that product? or are we buying a limited licence that allowes me to use that product untill the REAL owner decideds they want to stop service.

Would it kill you people to use a spell checker before posting?

http://www.spellchecker.net/spellcheck/

As to the whole "is it a good or a service" question to software in general, the law is slowly catching up (like it always does).

The games and other software companies have been trying to have it both ways for years now: they say "This is a product that you have to pay $XX for," but at the same time they also say "No, this is really a license for a service you are paying to use," and then they write their EULA to reflect those. Why? To give them, the companies, the most rights and consumers as few as possible. This is something US law does generally not tolerate.

Well, as EULAs and software in general has gone to court a few times now, and the courts have either found against the software companies or those companies settled to avoid a ruling. Why? Because something can not be both a good and service or sold a product and leased for use at the same time. It has to be one thing, and certain consumer and legal rights apply, or another thing and certain other legal rights apply.

Software game companies have been skirting things for years, trying to have it both ways, and that has been coming to a stop.

And as to EULAs, those have NOT been surviving legal scrutiny too well either, and for one main reason: a person can not agree to have their rights violated. If the contract is not legal, then agreeing to it or not makes no difference, there is no contract.

The only thing keeping the software/game companies out of court more, is that most people are not going to sue over a $60 game. That said, I'll be interested to see what happens when people start suing after, say, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars in a game cash shop and then that game closes or they get banned.

Time will tell.

Originally posted by jpnole

Originally posted by Xobdnas

The new trend in MMORPG's as of late is closing up and going away. I'm fine with that and I understand that. Where it gets weird is the fact that we purchased a product, a product we thought we would be able to continue using. Then the company pulls the plug and our purchase becomes worthless. We can no longer use said product.

I then look at songs. We pay for the right to use said songs on our devices but we never own the song?

Then I look to consoles, we pay for the console, but if we do anything to said console we can no longer use it?

Then I look at D3...enough said.

Consumers seem to be getting the very raw end of the deal when it comes to digital and technological products. Hopefully this stuff gets sorted out sooner than later, and hopefully the consumer comes out ahead, but looking at history, and at the lobbying power of corporations, I have my doubts.

Says right in the EULA that the game can cease to exist at any time. Gotta pick better games. Try GW2, it will be around for the long haul.

With the way things are going now, I do not have confident in ANY game/company esepcially one by NCsoft (which GW2 is) who just shut down City of Heroes which is far from dead. It was still being updated and the devs had more updates coming. Even Paragon Studios management are trying to reason with NCsoft to keep it going, and recommend us to keep up with petitions etc

SWG was also shut down too out of the blue, as they had updates planned, like an update to the Chronicle system, which got cancelled.

Beforehand, games like the Matrix that closed you could see that coming a mile off, there were no updates for ages. The same could be thought for EQOA om the PS2. SOE going F2P, EQOA unable to be updated to go F2P, and the PS2 becoming less and less used.

Nowadays they just seem to shut it down out of the blue, giviing the impression that every thing is all fine and dandy, taking your money right up until it closes. If the MMO has no updates for months, then people would suspect something is up and then not continue to pay more money.

If NCsoft gets away with this with City of Heroes, then the same thing will happen to any MMO in the future, including GW2.

This sudden cessation of MMOs needs to stop

Some people compare spending on MMOs like going to see movies at the cinema. In the case of SWG and CoH, it is like paying to see a movie, and then they stop it with about 30 mins left to view, and get no refunds as they can not afford to, as the cinema has gone bankrupt or something, and needs to cease immediatley. If you do not get to see ALL the movie, would you be happy with enjoying the movie up to that point or find it then a waste of money?

WOW is probably the safe one for now, and still is, but probably only until they release their next MMO. If their next MMO attracts more players than WOW does, you could say goodbye to WOW too

LOTRO looks good for the future what the Rohan expansion, t looks pretty awesome, unless they have just made it look better than what it is. http://uk.gamespot.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-online-riders-of-rohan/videos/the-lord-of-the-rings-online-riders-of-rohan-rohan-region-6394643/

For complete guarantees the best thing to do is just play single player games with multiplayer options. People are still playing GTA San Andreas multiplayer today, and paying nothing to do so, and has been high in the Xfire charts, around the top 10, currently #10, and peaked at #7 - http://www.xfire.com/games/gtasa/Grand_Theft_Auto_San_Andreas/

We buy movie ticket. Movie ends. We lost money?

Depends on what you expected. As long as I'm entertained well, I wouldn't call the money lost.

Originally posted by maji

We buy movie ticket. Movie ends. We lost money?

Depends on what you expected. As long as I'm entertained well, I wouldn't call the money lost.

If the movie is 2 hours long, and they only let you watch 1.5 hours, and you do not get to se the last 30 mins, then yes. Which is what it has been like with SWG and CoH

I do not feel cheated by the closure of the Matrix Online as you could see it closure coming, as it had no updates in ages, so you had time to experience all they put out

Games like SWG and CoH have closed while the devs were still working on the game. NC soft management are currently trying to save CoH from closure, showing that the game was far from over.

Basically Matrix and other MMOs closed = not waste of money, SWG and especially COH = waste of money, and this kind of practice should not be allowed to continue

If companies like LA and NC soft think that the game is not worth, then they should put the game in maintenanec mode for about 6 months, like the Matrix, with no updates, so people have time to enjoy what the devs have done.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

 

 

Example: Supcom2 (supreme commander 2) came out, its a offline single player game (as well as online) I purchased the box version.. get it home, only to realise that I needed to log into steam to play it.. I was like WTF?? even more so because I was at a rented apartment and didn't have internet access at the time. So I had to wait a little over a year to play it.. It wasn't like I needed to log into a sever to play, I litrally online had to log into steam long enough to 'verify" that it was a legit copy.. then I could play it offline all I want..

 

Ha, that reminds me of my first horrible encounter with Steam when Football Manager first released on it (think it was 2008, might be wrong). So, as I always used to do when that game released on a yearly basis, I went to the shops on the first day and dropped 60 euro on a boxed copy. Brought it home, fired it up and was eager to take a look at the new changes, only I couldn't...I had to log on to Steam to register the game to play offline.

A bit miffed, but still eager, I set up my Steam account for the first time and tried to register it, only I couldn't....Steam hadn't factored with the demand of this game and their servers had crashed...this lasted for 4 days for me (more for others) and in the meantime we couldn't play our boxed, offline game because we couldn't log to Steam to register it.

Genuinely unbelievable fuck up and really showed me the true nature of fanboys, as FM fanboys attacked everyone complaining (there were lots) on the Sega Interactive forums about not being able to play an offline (for the vast majority) game they had dropped 60 bucks on

Originally posted by Xobdnas

The new trend in MMORPG's as of late is closing up and going away. I'm fine with that and I understand that. Where it gets weird is the fact that we purchased a product, a product we thought we would be able to continue using. Then the company pulls the plug and our purchase becomes worthless. We can no longer use said product.

Nothing lasts forever.  Go ahead and try to sue a company that went out of business, hmm?

Sale of a product does not imply support or replacement in perpetuity.

/First world problems.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Xobdnas

The new trend in MMORPG's as of late is closing up and going away. I'm fine with that and I understand that. Where it gets weird is the fact that we purchased a product, a product we thought we would be able to continue using. Then the company pulls the plug and our purchase becomes worthless. We can no longer use said product.

Nothing lasts forever.  Go ahead and try to sue a company that went out of business, hmm?

/First world problems.

Other games lasts forever. People will probably still be playing Space Invaders in some form or another 100 years from now.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Other games lasts forever. People will probably still be playing Space Invaders in some form or another 100 years from now.

No warranty express or implied, etc.

How many of them will be trying to sue Namco?  (Namco's out of business now). 

Ooops, I was mistaken about that, they're just deathly quiet these days :P

Space Invaders was Taito, now owned by Square-Enix.  Go hop on the FFXIV boards and make a stink!

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by superniceguy

Other games lasts forever. People will probably still be playing Space Invaders in some form or another 100 years from now.

No warranty express or implied, etc.

How many of them will be trying to sue Namco?  (Namco's out of business now).

You should have said MMOs do not last forever.

But they seriosully are taking the biscuit now, instaed of leaving game running for a few more months in a non profit or a little bit profitable (but not loss) scenario, they chop games when it is still profitable, and ends up leaving you in total uncertainty. I do not see how games that you sepend money on become a loss, when there are other games like GTA San Andreas running where no one pays anything.

What they should do is, using CoH as an example, try and move devs to another MMO, like GW2, cancel or complete the content they are currently working on,  let people enjoy what the devs have done, and then shut  it down.

With the closure of SWG and especially CoH, and SWTOR, TSW being short lived affairs and even GW2 looking lo be like that too, i I am not touching new MMOs ever again. I never felt like this when the Matrix closed, as it was expected. I may try PSO 2 maybe if it has an offline mode. Companies just want the most money with very little effort these days.

City of Heroes shut down, is just so wrong on so many levels. With the Pargon Studios management trying to save the game from closure, proves it was shut down before its time, and should have lasted longer.

Originally posted by superniceguy

You should have said MMOs do not last forever.

But they seriosully are taking the biscuit now, instaed of leaving game running for a few more months in a non profit or a little bit profitable (but not loss) scenario, they chop games when it is still profitable...

Source?