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Official MMORPG.com Guild »  PvP »  World vs. World  » WvW requires an overhaul, not tweeks.

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67 posts found
  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 7:48:52 AM#1

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

  Slapshot1188

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4193

9/06/12 7:59:23 AM#2
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

 1.  Yes, as expected.  This is what happens.  Not every battle is 300 Spartans vs the Persians (although we know how that ended as well)

2. Yes, as expected. But not nearly as bad as in prior games. There are also plenty of other things to do in WvW other than a keep defense and a lot of it doesn't involve sieging.

3. In some cases its fine.. others need work.  This is a tweak not an overhaul.

4. Who the hell cares?  I personally hate the rotating worlds idea, but it's one benefit is exactly that it makes this "most egregious" offense moot.  Lose a lot? you will match up with other losing realms.  Win alot?  You will end up playing other winning realms.

 

WvW is what was expected.  Since it is only of limited persistence (1 day now.. a week or two later) it's more of just a way to kill some time than DAoC which remains the cream of the crop of RvR games to me.

 

 

 

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 8:06:13 AM#3
With 2, on my mesmer I love people spamming mindless aoe at me, it boosts my damage and hurts them more than me.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 8:07:49 AM#4
Still 100045356 times better than bloody wow poopsocking & macroing to win while stuck in a tupperware box pvp
  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

9/06/12 8:07:58 AM#5

Well I won't come to woo you with my valiant tales of heroism and bravery in the face of unimaginable odds, nor will I sit and tell you that zerging is the bane of all things MMO and that we should expect one on one confrontations to happen frequently in WvW.

What I can say is that no matter what you do, no matter where you go or how awesome you think game X or game Y is, there will always be a zerg. Under every rock and troll bridge and around every mountain bend there is a zerg waiting for you. It's not something that tweaking or overhauling a games mechanics can fix. It's something that is just in human nature. What wins a fight? numbers!

Sure a king could go challenge another king to a duel and stake his entire kingdom on it, but what happens if he loses? A better option is to simply throw masses upon masses of bodies at his walls until they fall and then send more masses of meat shields raging in to take the kingdom while the king sits at a comfortable distance with his map and chess pieces sipping on his afternoon tea.

Zerging happens and the zerg mentality will always be there. When you're out in the WvW maps its war not a survival game. If you think about it those are pretty much the only games where no form of zerging occurs(by players anyway). People split up and go all "lone-wolf" or travel in small packs to survive. In a war, if you want to live you stick with the mass; less chance of being hit by loose mortars.

I also wouldn't say that the theatre is dominated by ranged AOE users. The thing is, no one wants to die. I don't like dieing the walk back is just shameful. So most people will hang back and you end up with a stand off of people dropping AOE's until that one poor unlucky sap gets caught out and jumped by the first 20 people that can get a hit in. It's not a mechanics thing it's a people thing. No matter how hard you try this will always be present. So long as people don't want to die you will have zergs ruled by ranged AOE's.

Bottom line is: It happens. No overhauls are needed as the experience is the most fun I've had in a while. I think that it will take some time for organization to set in. Once everyone gets past the zerg mentality and starts to think as a unit things will fall into place. I've seen it happen time and time again.

  Sentime

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/06
Posts: 278

9/06/12 8:09:06 AM#6
WvW is in paid alpha state.  Enjoy your time.
  ellobo29

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 389

9/06/12 8:10:34 AM#7

Yes WvW requires an overhaul but not for any of the reasons you stated......

right now on my server its an 8hour que wait to get into wvw and that is just unacceptable.... at least thats how long its been taking me to get in.

Dont ever worry about getting in with your guild mates seeing how queing is so long. So what you get is a big zerg that floats around aimlessly with little to no dirrection. And then ppl start complaining about direction and bickering.

Last night it took me 6hours to get in.... once i got in wvw i seen people do nothing but argue the whole time about what to do next, where to go, why we are losing/winning i got demotivated and just logged off after waiting all that time to get in.

Yes it took me 6hours to just be givin the chance to do the very thing i bought the game for. if i had it my way i would be spending 70% of my time in wvw and 30% of my time doing pve. unfortunatly thats not possible.

http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/char_tool/CT_imageGenerator.php?pseudo=Centurion%20Mikal&lang=EN&code=&code=TSwtLDUsLSw2LC0sMjksOSwyMiwyMywyNCwtLDEwMiwzNiw4MSw4NCw4OQ%3D%3D

  jjdejong0

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 25

9/06/12 8:12:52 AM#8
I think its just gonna take time for everything to settle down and balance out. I remember in DAoC it used to be zerg vs zerg and just random crap, but after a while you started seeing organized pvp guilds and groups and people using the alliance chat to coordinate attacks. Now i remember being in a huge zerg and us being systematically taken down by a smaller group that was more skilled and better organized. I think gw2 will play out the same way and the tweeks they make will only enhance the experience. Also, gw2 gives you many options, if your getting fed up of your 5 man team being zerged down, go try sPvP. But facts remain, strength in numbers, its like that in all mmo's and in real life warfare as well, it takes good strategy and skill plus mabey a bit of luck to break a zerg but it can be done.
  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

9/06/12 8:15:59 AM#9
Originally posted by ellobo29

Yes WvW requires an overhaul but not for any of the reasons you stated......

right now on my server its an 8hour que wait to get into wvw and that is just unacceptable.... at least thats how long its been taking me to get in.

Dont ever worry about getting in with your guild mates seeing how queing is so long. So what you get is a big zerg that floats around aimlessly with little to no dirrection. And then ppl start complaining about direction and bickering.

Last night it took me 6hours to get in.... once i got in wvw i seen people do nothing but argue the whole time about what to do next, where to go, why we are losing/winning i got demotivated and just logged off after waiting all that time to get in.

This happens in all games. People in mass pvp situations (especially ones involving capturing and defending realestate) will argue over what to do and where to go. Everyone want's to be a leader and no one wants to follow. This will persist until a big guild comes along and takes the reins. From there they'll simply point fingers in directions and the masses will move accordingly. People complain about direction and no one will ever step forward to point out the direction they so desperately seek.

  ellobo29

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 389

9/06/12 8:22:19 AM#10

Thats my point..... if you COULD get your guild in wvw. You WOULD have a method of organization. Ever play planetside?

Clans/Guilds provide leadership. I cant ever find one or maybe 2 at the most of my clan mates in wvw cause the freakin ques are so long. In planetside our clan leaders had breaching facilities and storming bases down to a science.

Too many cooks will ruin the soup. And thats what happens in map chat.

http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/char_tool/CT_imageGenerator.php?pseudo=Centurion%20Mikal&lang=EN&code=&code=TSwtLDUsLSw2LC0sMjksOSwyMiwyMywyNCwtLDEwMiwzNiw4MSw4NCw4OQ%3D%3D

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

9/06/12 8:22:45 AM#11
Originally posted by ShakyMo
With 2, on my mesmer I love people spamming mindless aoe at me, it boosts my damage and hurts them more than me.

Good for you as a mesmer, bad for your team mates that are not mesmers who have pain raining down on them. I've done the mindless spamming of AoE, it works, and it works well especially when lots of AoE'ers spam on the same area during bottleneck situations. If I take a little damage back, big deal, I'm doing significant damage to 20+ other people.

Honestly though, I don't think AoE damage is out of control. I just think it is a simpler and more intuitive element of the game to perform than it's counter, which are all the defensive shields and shells and such that many classes get that can negate that damage for the whole AoE area if used properly. AoE is easy to do, just spam the button. Defensive measures are harder, you have to react to where the AoE is hitting and if their is AoE everywhere in your area, you may have to choose the best places to have your group place protection spells to protect the most people possible. This requires coordination.

But, on second thought, defense should be easier than attacking, and attacking should require more coordination, and since the attackers are more often the recipient of the nasty AoE, they should have to learn to work in those situations.

I think as players learn to use their class abilities to the fullest, and learn to work as a team with their server, WvW will become better and more strategic.

Right now it's a big zerg fest, but honestly, big zergs work to win each individual fight, but time and time again the zerg keeps moving on leaving no defense of towers or even keeps in many cases, no strategic espionage behind enemy lines to distract the enemy attention, no parties holding supply camps or walking supply caravans, and the team that just zergs wins the battle, but they lose the war.

Do not underestimate the power of supplies in this game. Upgraded gates alone are a massive advantage in letting your team move forward instead of just constantly getting the towers behind you retaken. This is a three way war, and defense can be just as important as offense.

  kDeviL

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/12
Posts: 237

9/06/12 8:23:13 AM#12
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

Sure, Tell me a game that doesn't generally follow this rule.  But there are some great tactics to dealing with this completely.  Maybe not for most people that aren't in a very organized alliance though.

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

Not even close to true. Like at all.  I hate to say learn to play, but learn to play.

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

Doesn't always happen, and in the instances it does it's pretty minor.

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

 ...Why does this matter?  Servers or "worlds" are ranked and matched. Meaning that even if one server gets weaker, it'll be matched up against other weak servers.  Also the free transfers aren't forever. They'll be done soon.

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

 

You should really join a guild or something dude.  I'll admit WvW isn't nearly as fun if you aren't in one.  If you are in one I'd suggest joining a better one. All you're problems will be fixed.

If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
Why is it still such a big deal?

  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 8:23:38 AM#13
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

 

1,  God is always on the side of the big battalions -- Voltaire.

 

2,  Nope.  Learn to play.

 

3.  Oh well.

 

4.  Oh my, people being people and flocking to the bandwagon.    You can't blame a game for the behaviors of sheep.

 

 

1- It's still a problem.

2- I play just fine; my level 6 Necro in WvW makes Guardians  and Warriors back away from me cautiously.

3- It's still a problem.

4- It's still a problem.

Your middling sarcasm notwithstanding, you brought nothing to the table as far as possible solutions go. Well done.

  doragon86

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 590

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

9/06/12 8:26:09 AM#14
Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

It's beautiful in concept, and lots of fun some of the time. However...

1- As expected, the side with the bigger zerg usually wins.

Not really. Zergs are generally equal size. It comes to down which zerg has more direction. Otherwise a zerg will simply break apart into smaller zergs, and get rolled over by large organized ones. 

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers mainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

All, "melee" classes have some degree of aoe. If you're trying to melee in a large group of attackers, then you're doing it wrong. That's how one dies real quickly. I generally use hit and run tactics, picking off people on the outside of the zerg and using ranged weapons when the situation calls for it. 

3-  As expected, the age old problem of AoE attacks hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

I agree, this is rather annoying. 

4- Most egregiously, and again as expected, free server transfers have weakened already weaker worlds by allowing players to transfer onto the very worlds previosuly dominating them.

Yup, this seems to be happening. The current server I'm on is rather terrible or uniniterested in WvW. Queues used to take some time. Now I get in either instantly or within 5 min. Also, overall WvW performance is far worse then it was. Good thing WvW bonuses, ain't so great to make me care a lot about my current server's performance. 

And please, don't try to impress me with the tales of how your small valiant band broke up a larger group this one time. Yes, it happens. More often than not, though, you end up dead when their 20 meet up with your 8.

 

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron

  krakra70

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 127

9/06/12 8:28:00 AM#15

The biggest problem with WvW is they copied too much stuff from DAoC but forgot the most important things: realm points, realm ranks, darkness falls, 8man groups(funny how they existed in GW1), long duration CC (so skill > number of people). DAoC RvR worked because the most rewarding thing was killing other players, taking keeps was secondary.

Playing in an underpopulated realm was a privilege, not a handicap. Most people who changed realms/servers went to the underpopulated one so they have more enemies (=rps) and less allies to compete with. Keep takes were also more fun because they had bigger consequences (relics, DF), and you didn't have to keep attack all day so you wouldn't get bored of them.

 

WvW can be saved. All it needs is a rank system(with a small power progression - yes your char should be getting stronger) for enemy kills and not for keep takes/objectives and better optimization in WvW areas and especially big fights. They need to take the focus from objectives to PvP. Then we might see something other than zergs running around.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 8:28:42 AM#16
Sethius:
As a mesmer I can make my clones boon allies and condition enemies when they die.

So when people spam aoe, my weak clones die before any player, booning my allies so they take longer to for and applying all sorts if conditions on the attackers.

Other classes have anti-aoe too, e.g. necros.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/06/12 8:33:54 AM#17
Changes I would make to WvW
Open warband system from warhammer (also for pve)
Ability to flag your name on
Pvp ranking for more COSMETIC rewards e.g. trophies like in warhammer, special emotes you can do before charging in, titles, different skinned siege weapons.
Perhaps some way to lock down a map and open up a darkness falls type open pvp dungeon like daoc.(that other servers can lock after and cone clear you out of the dungeon)

Not just WvW, but number 1 problem with gw2, let me turn off bloody mouse smoothing.
  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 8:34:19 AM#18
Originally posted by kDeviL

2- As expected, combat is dominated by ranged AoE attackers (elementalists and rangers ainly). Melee are at a severe, crippling disadvantage.

Not even close to true. Like at all.  I hate to say learn to play, but learn to play.  hitting defenders thru solid objects remains (try repairing a keep door).

Not even true? Who keeps killing everyone on the battlements of a keep during the siege? Rangers and elementalists. Where are the melee? Either beating on the door, or hiding in the back out of range of ballistas and arrow carts.

Who is on the frontlines during zerg vs zerg engagements? Rangers and elementalists, AoEing the crap out of anyone who is dumb enough to get in range. Melee? They just get in that last killing blow.

I have a level 52 guardian who terrorizes ranged fighters with Wall of Reflection, because when I cast it suddenly 20 people on the other side (who are too dumb to just stop shooting) are taking thousands in damage from their own hail or arrows and bolts bouncing back on them.

It's just sad that and buffing my group is all I am good for though. Go to the front and fight? Are you nuts? I'll be dead before I'm even within ten yards of their front lines, full of arrows and burnt to a crisp.

Learn to play my ass...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, my level 6 Necromancer  can cause 2 or 3 melee classes to back away from me simply with the default bolt from a 2-handed staff, and spamming AoE ground symbols, all of which have a range of 1200.

  SethiusX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 171

9/06/12 8:39:06 AM#19
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sethius:
As a mesmer I can make my clones boon allies and condition enemies when they die.

So when people spam aoe, my weak clones die before any player, booning my allies so they take longer to for and applying all sorts if conditions on the attackers.

Other classes have anti-aoe too, e.g. necros.

Yet AoE spam kills the group 9 out of 10 times. I think it is better to use AoE spam when defending and destroy the group. If this changes as Mesmers get smarter, I'll retract that, but right now, AoE spam works.

  WoW_Refugee

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 81

 
OP  9/06/12 8:40:23 AM#20
Originally posted by SethiusX
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Sethius:
As a mesmer I can make my clones boon allies and condition enemies when they die.

So when people spam aoe, my weak clones die before any player, booning my allies so they take longer to for and applying all sorts if conditions on the attackers.

Other classes have anti-aoe too, e.g. necros.

Yet AoE spam kills the group 9 out of 10 times. I think it is better to use AoE spam when defending and destroy the group. If this changes as Mesmers get smarter, I'll retract that, but right now, AoE spam works.

AoE spam dominates, actually.

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