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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Why do so many think TSW is not a fantasy MMO?

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57 posts found
  Scalpless

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1313

 
OP  8/28/12 2:03:38 AM#1

I've wondered this for a long time. I'm going to quote Wikipedia now:

"The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme.[2] Within such a structure, any location of the fantastical element is possible: it may be hidden in, or leak into the apparently real world setting, it may draw the characters into a world with such elements, or it may occur entirely in a fantasy world setting, where such elements are part of the world.[3] Essentially, fantasy follows rules of its own making, allowing magic and other fantastic devices to be used and still be internally cohesive.[4]"

That sounds exactly like TSW, but it seems people like to claim TSW is, in fact, not fantasy. Some even claim it to be science fiction and that's especially strange. I've seen a lot of posts like that lately and I guess I'm wondering if it's just people trolling GW2 or has the genre definition of fantasy changed to "medieval fantasy" all of a sudden.

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

8/28/12 2:09:15 AM#2
The differentiation would be it's not a Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy as mentioned.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  User Deleted
8/28/12 2:10:06 AM#3
Might have something to do with the setting; whatever the case, it's definitely a type of fantasy, just not the high fantasy that we generally see for most MMOs.
  Caldrin

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4165

8/28/12 2:15:32 AM#4
its not a medieval fantasy game... of course its modern fantasy type game as its not real. but most people associate fantast in MMORPGS with orcs, elfs, dwarfs, wolf people and so on..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

8/28/12 4:03:13 AM#5
Probably because Funcom billed it more as a Horror/Conspiracy based game.   Or in their words 'A modern day MMO' with real world settings.   They tried to pull it as far away from fantasy as they could manage.  So in answer to your question Funcom made the game technically not fantasy and more horror. Especially with their continued references to H.P.Lovecraft. Many people associate H.P.Lovecraft with a specific sub-genre of horror fiction. So all the way down the line the game has distanced itself from typical fantasy.
  Thenextbigthing

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/02/12
Posts: 113

9/04/12 2:57:05 PM#6
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/04/12 4:24:38 PM#7
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

 

Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.
  MagikrorriM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 171

9/04/12 5:45:17 PM#8
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

 

Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

9/04/12 5:47:13 PM#9
Star Wars, for example, is Fantasy and Sci Fi.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

9/04/12 5:48:14 PM#10
Originally posted by MagikrorriM
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

 

Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

Effectively though the QL is a level.  It's just not a traditional way of looking at levels.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  StanlyStanko

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 269

9/04/12 5:51:07 PM#11
Originally posted by XAPGames
The differentiation would be it's not a Tolkien-esque medieval fantasy as mentioned.

Yes. For many people, depending on what era of RPGs you grew up with, the 'medieval' is implied. Can be confusing for the youngins.

  MagikrorriM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 171

9/04/12 5:55:18 PM#12
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by MagikrorriM
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

 

Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

There are no character levels in the game, this is a fact, there is gear and weapon levels, but no character levels. There no classes in the game, there are over 500 abilities, but no defining classes, don't confuse classes with roles, I.E. a Warrior is a class, a tank is a role.

They are adding 9 auxilery weapons, which has it's own wheel, and if that's not enough, abilities from mobs will be learned via kill x number of mobs achievements, Funcom has created something unique, no MMO has made a sandbox out of abilities, Ragnar is gonna pull it off.

Effectively though the QL is a level.  It's just not a traditional way of looking at levels.

It's a gear level, not a character level. They stated no character levels, which there aren't.

  fallenlords

Novice Member

Joined: 5/16/10
Posts: 700

9/05/12 4:27:33 AM#13
Originally posted by MagikrorriM

It's a gear level, not a character level. They stated no character levels, which there aren't.

Tornquist said freedom from classes and levels.  They insinuated through their literature that this is a major selling point of the game.   They still bang on about it, but when you look under the facade it's the same old thing done slightly differently.  
 
 
Tornquist is making out like they have made something special with TSW that the majority of MMO gamers are not seeing.  It's like the guy is blinkered.  The majority of MMO gamers I think were waiting for something special in TSW.  When they saw very little of interest and found the genre not overly appealing, well the sale figures say it all  Tornquist in his ivory tower thinks he has started some sort of MMO revolution - when in actual fact he has probably put another death nail in the coffin.

 

 

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16745

9/05/12 4:33:36 AM#14
Originally posted by Scalpless

I've wondered this for a long time. I'm going to quote Wikipedia now:

"The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme.[2] Within such a structure, any location of the fantastical element is possible: it may be hidden in, or leak into the apparently real world setting, it may draw the characters into a world with such elements, or it may occur entirely in a fantasy world setting, where such elements are part of the world.[3] Essentially, fantasy follows rules of its own making, allowing magic and other fantastic devices to be used and still be internally cohesive.[4]"

That sounds exactly like TSW, but it seems people like to claim TSW is, in fact, not fantasy. Some even claim it to be science fiction and that's especially strange. I've seen a lot of posts like that lately and I guess I'm wondering if it's just people trolling GW2 or has the genre definition of fantasy changed to "medieval fantasy" all of a sudden.

We call it "gothic horror" instead, or almost every single book would be fantasy. Technically you are right but the genre needs to be more splitted up than that or people would be confused.

Sure, you can call MMOs computer games but being more specific helps.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5631

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

9/05/12 4:34:24 AM#15

i see TSW as a dark fantasy mmo. It doesnt have to have elves and orcs to be fantasy as long as it has other fantastic elements

 

EDIT: as Loke666 said, Gothic horror also fits the game.

I would also call it gothic fantasy or horror fantasy. Just personal ideas taht fit my impression of the game after experiencing TSWs setting / plot / theme

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  HiHoEskimo

Novice Member

Joined: 10/10/04
Posts: 81

9/05/12 7:27:27 AM#16

Because it's all REAL!!! Anyone one who doesn't thing that bigfoot is real and is on the side of good is just fooling themselves and blind to reality! The Secret World is the reality everyone ignores!

Either that or it's because there are no elves..... have it have elves for a game to be fantasy.

Seriously? Most likely the time setting current times makes some people think it's not fantasy.

Oh...no, have to go.... zombies at the door, need to clear the way before taking the kids to the bus stop..........

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

9/05/12 7:37:50 AM#17

Orson Scott Card said it best "If there is a dragon on the cover it's fantasy, if there is a space ship its science fiction."

What is TSW filled with "Zombies" "Monsters" that makes it either horror or urban fantasy. You take urban legends and ask, what if they are true?

I personally would catorgorize it as Urban Fantasy with both sci-fi and horror elements.

I can't remember any MMO using the Urban fantasy genre before which makes it unique. That is what I like about it. Great setting.

  Beauman

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/05
Posts: 144

9/05/12 12:05:55 PM#18
Originally posted by fallenlords
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing
The term fantasy comes from 'fantastic fiction' which originally included pretty much everything like H.G. Wells, Jules Verne and Tarzan by Edgar Rice Burrows. So I think TSW certainly fits into the fantastical. Nowadays we think 'fantasy' is always high medieval fantasy like Tolkien, but that's just one area. TSW is certainly influenced by Lovecraft, but it seems to me also the fantasy of Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Ragnar himself says it's 'dark fantasy'. 
You don't do yourself any favors utilising terms that people have no connection with, that is just stupid.  Dark Fantasy is another sub genre, you are whittling your intended audience down further and further until you have nothing more than a niche group of people with any interest.  

 

Funcom told people exactly what they wanted TSW to be.  A horror inspired game influenced by authors such as H.P.Lovecraft, with a fantastical element all interconnected with secret societies.  Now this might appeal to Ragnar - but as per usual he didn't have his finger on the pulse of the gaming community.  To pull off a Dark Fantasy game he needed to bring something new to the table to get Dark Fantasy as a genre recognised and noticed.  There needed to be some magnificent pull within the game, which would draw people regardless of genre.  When the majority of people realised it wasn't leveless or classless in the true sense, it was just a different way of doing the same old stuff. I think Ragnar lost a lot of credibility.   For an MMO we have been waiting on for such a long time, to just bring the same stuff (different guise) to an already full table is just beyond belief to be honest.

Actually, Dark Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, and so forth are widely recognized subgenres---- at least in literary circles, and even in the Tabletop RPG hobby. Unfortunately, it's become obvious that the MMO masses are only very basically educated or not avid readers to begin with.

 

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Orson Scott Card said it best "If there is a dragon on the cover it's fantasy, if there is a space ship its science fiction."

What is TSW filled with "Zombies" "Monsters" that makes it either horror or urban fantasy. You take urban legends and ask, what if they are true?

I personally would catorgorize it as Urban Fantasy with both sci-fi and horror elements.

I can't remember any MMO using the Urban fantasy genre before which makes it unique. That is what I like about it. Great setting.

Then at WorldCon several times, Card would go on to discuss the science-fantasy subgenre.

  Thenextbigthing

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/02/12
Posts: 113

9/05/12 1:10:21 PM#19
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Star Wars, for example, is Fantasy and Sci Fi.

 

Star Wars is Space Opera, same as Star Trek, character driven and set in space, but with very little science (fiction).

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6169

9/05/12 2:30:22 PM#20

Who cares?  Most people on this board can't even come close to identifying this stuff right.

 

TSW is modern fantasy not science fiction.

A bunch of people think a game with Renaisance styling and robots and mega-lasers is somehow medieval (Guild Wars 2).

 

 

Fact is large number of people on these boards wouldn't know history if it bit them on the ass and don't know the difference between hard science fiction, soft science fiction, and fantasy.

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