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Guild Wars 2

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General Discussion  » ArenaNet built GW2 around the idea of choice, but....

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  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  9/04/12 12:07:37 PM#1

Is GW2 nothing more than the direct opposite of giving the player's the ability to actually choose what they want to do, and then get a viable outcome out of it that will satisfy the player?

 

I ask this because right now the only viable build I've seen has to do with whichever build does the most dps in X amount of time (burst dps).

 

Yet, GW2 gives us the "choice" of specializing into other paths such as toughness/vitality for taking hits better, and +Healing. However, from what I've seen first-hand anything other than doing massive dps is a waste of time, and you're even detrimented for trying to fix yourself into a specific specialized role.

 

For example, why give players the choice of stacking every single defensive-minded ability/trait (maxed toughness + vitality, toughness trait skills, defensive based signets/skills etc) when you almost see no return in that investment?

 

I tested this last night by specializing out of my massive dps Two-Handed Sword Warrior setup into a maxed Toughess/Vitality Defensive build that was possible for a level 41 Warrior. To my dismay I found that I could only take one or two more hits from a boss (after running out of endurance via-dodging of course) before going down compared to my old pure DPS build. Ironically, I can solo any boss my level or within 5 levels of my character with my dps build, however my "Tank" build can barely even keep himself alive long enough to get the boss to 70% before being thrown to the worms.

 

I know I'm not the only one who has noticed this as Reddit had a pretty good discussion about how worthless any other build OTHER THAN dps/condition builds were. My question to you, is do you think it's a proper design for GW2's idea of a "role-less" system when they actually have all of the groundwork for roles already there, but none of the incentives to do so.

 

Personally, I've found that my guildmates actually get pissed off that they cannot specialize how they want. We have members of our guild who used to be hardcore dedicated healers, and actually enjoyed healing people. Then, we had our dedicated tanks whom were obviously very close-knit with our healers. Now, both parties are completely upset & I've found are logging in less & less each day regardless of how early post-launch GW2 already is.

 

Was the game worth its $60-80 box fee? Sure, but I don't believe it should be touted as the "next big thing" when we have people clammering to go back to games like DAOC, EQII, Final Fantasy, etc. (ps: our guild is VERY anti-WoW, so not sure if that matters in this instance?)

 

 

Have you had any issues with any specific specializations other than dps-oriented ones?

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

9/04/12 12:16:00 PM#2

I think DPS/conditions is one of the easier styles to play. I say this coming in as a player from GW1, who loved and played a mesmer there. The mesmer is one of the hardest classes to play because the mechanics are so complicated. Yes, you can daze, cripple etc. But how that is done is very complex.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I don't think the game has been out long enough for people to experiment with every build. That was the same thing that happened in GW1 - Rift, while the builds can vary - it is the holy trinity that wins the day and you have to play in that arena.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  9/04/12 12:18:45 PM#3
Originally posted by botrytis

I think DPS/conditions is one of the easier styles to play. I say this coming in as a player from GW1, who loved and played a mesmer there. The mesmer is one of the hardest classes to play because the mechanics are so complicated. Yes, you can daze, cripple etc. But how that is done is very complex.

 

I understand where you are coming from but I don't think the game has been out long enough for people to experiment with every build. That was the same thing that happened in GW1 - Rift, while the builds can vary - it is the holy trinity that wins the day and you have to play in that arena.

You can actually experiment with almost any build possible. Hit H, go down to the dual-swords icon, and go to "Hearts of the Mist". That levels you to 80, and you can test all of those builds against mock-up NPC's to the north that are mirrored players in PvP.

 

In other words, you can test every single build possible for any class there as long as you're out of the tutorial.

 

Granted, I've been testing PvE stuff with my 41 Warrior, but I also created a crazy Condition damage build with my warrior that was killing players in PvP in under 12 seconds :).

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  grimm6th

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/10
Posts: 978

9/04/12 12:19:01 PM#4
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Have you had any issues with any specific specializations other than dps-oriented ones?

No.

I play a guardian, and I feel that defensive specs on guardian are quite viable.

You might consider that a PURE defensive build isn't going to be as good as a heavily defensive build that has more utility, and you need to learn the best way to play any given build and in what situations one build is better than others.

 

I really think of things in terms of sPvP, so I can tell you that a defensive spec warrior is viable, as I use one, but you aren't going to be able to do what an offensive warrior can do, you are just going to have to see what works best for you in different situations.

Also, not every build is meant to be a 1v1 build...

...and condition clensing...use it.

...oh and necro...so good at everything.

I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

9/04/12 12:19:58 PM#5
Originally posted by botrytis

I think DPS/conditions is one of the easier styles to play. I say this coming in as a player from GW1, who loved and played a mesmer there. The mesmer is one of the hardest classes to play because the mechanics are so complicated. Yes, you can daze, cripple etc. But how that is done is very complex.

 

Agreed, as someone who's also playing a mesmer, sometimes you even have to hit buttons and stuff. Shit's out there.

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

9/04/12 12:21:07 PM#6
Good info in this thread so far. I will keep all that in mind!  THANKS!!

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ScorpionOne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/15/06
Posts: 180

9/04/12 12:22:56 PM#7

This reply is not meant to be condoncending.  This is my view as what I'm taking from your post, Fadedbomb.

Guild Wars, in my eyes, was a thinking man's game.  It wasn't like WoW were you could run in, throw down the AOE and just spam one button (and yes, I'm overexaggerating a bit on the one button bit).  But WoW was made to be "easier" as it were.  Guild Wars on the other hand, you had to base what you did on what conditions you had, the right set up, the proper skills, the right henchmen/heroes.  And you had to know the fight you were walking into.  Factions missions were a mix of henchmen to use.  But best done with real people who were Minion Masters or were really on top of their game.  It was alot of trial and error.

Guild Wars 2 takes a little bit of that into account.  Sometimes you have to know the right group set up.  Some builds are built for groups alone.  Others not.  There may not be a dedicated healer, but you still have to be careful and think. Choose the right skills for your particular situation.  Don't go running in.  Pathing of roaming mobs is definately a consideration like it was in Guild Wars.

Again, this is how I'm seeing Guild Wars 2.  And I'm loving ever bit of it.  For me on my Guardian, if I'm soloing, I use my hammer.  Because it is effectively better than running with Sword and Board.  I would use those weapons and the appropriate skills if I was with a group of friends.  As I said, it is a thinking man's game.  Or woman's if you want to be politically correct.  :)


  Valador_TERA

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/09
Posts: 39

9/04/12 12:28:17 PM#8

I totally agree and actually posted about a lot of the same issues yesterday over in the PvP forum.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/363783/Finding-it-hard-to-like-the-PvP.html

  Gargola

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/05
Posts: 356

9/04/12 12:30:07 PM#9

When you have more "freedom" it is often easier to see how to "succeed" thru a narrow path, even if the actual choices are plenty.

 

Likely it will take some thinking and trying to find the advantages of different ways over the more cookie cutter oriented, but that also might make it all more interesting.

 

It's not the only game where this perception exists.  We have been spoiled into narrow paths and when presented with multiple options it might condition us to see the same narrow paths, instead.

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

9/04/12 12:34:19 PM#10

Some people won't be able too get past the non-holy-trinity. Their mindset is so made up on healers/tanks/dps that they will not be able to get past those 3 roles. 

Thos are also the people who will come here and complain that these builds are the only build viable. You know what really kicks ass? A light combo field based Gaurdian with any blast finisher class. Those 2 classes can mitigate and return half the dps put on them all the time.

Last night one of my deahts in SPvP was 33k dps from retaliation. (This is on my Necro). I went into DS around 4 enemies, hit #4 (life transfer), and one of them got retaliation off on all of them, holy shit i've never seen DS drop so fast.

33k dps from a boon. A Boon. There may not be a "trinity" but holy shit does team-work pay off. I mean come on Look at THIS combo field, and how much the gaurdian gets it. finish it with a blast and boom, AREA retaliation, AREA. dps returned is also fixed with power, so lets say you make a middle of the line build, half power 1/4 vitality 1/4th toughness. 

That's some decent health, decent toughness, and you're constantly returning dps back to sender. So if you pop off AREA retaliation in WvW, and the enemy spams an AoE on you, tehy will die FAST, becuase their own dps spell hitting those 30 people, is also sending dps back on them.

 

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7324

9/04/12 12:39:50 PM#11
After coming from TSW and loving EvE for the same reason. I do feel that character customiztion is lacking terms of weapon choices and abilities. There is still a lot more than what swtor and WoW at this point.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  SlyLoK

Elite Member

Joined: 7/04/08
Posts: 1045

9/04/12 12:42:06 PM#12
Originally posted by grimm6th
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Have you had any issues with any specific specializations other than dps-oriented ones?

No.

I play a guardian, and I feel that defensive specs on guardian are quite viable.

 

What build are you using? Everything I have tried on my Guardian ( outside of stacking conditions ) has been rolled right over..I mainly wanted to play a Guardian for the Tank/Support type of being in melee range and supporting but the range and strength on those abilities are terrible causing 99% of the to do nothing for my teammates.

At least with the trinity you have players that enjoy being the tank , enjoy being the healer/support and enjoy being the DPS. WIth GW2 often times its DPS DPS DPS and I can understand why people find that lacking.

  Valador_TERA

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/09
Posts: 39

9/04/12 12:42:27 PM#13
Remake classic UO. Then you'll truly have freedom....
  chaintm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 979

"Shutting down threads sense 2004"

9/04/12 12:47:15 PM#14

To be honest, the only differance between guild wars 2 no trinity aspect is having a no healer class. In the end, we got tanks, dps melee, backstabbers, casters, crowed control, range damage and utility. The only class NOT in the game is a healer. So for me at least, the trinity is here without one class in the game. If you spec healing you will be a better healer, if you spec any other line other then dps playing solo well good luck, you will run into exactly what you have just mentioned.

Nice thing is thou, you can have your skills all dps till your guilded and grouping or go pvp, you can change on the fly as needed so meh, in the end it really doesn't matter much. I agree however that as a solo player, dps is the only way to really go about leveling and questing in the game.

"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2542

9/04/12 12:56:29 PM#15
Originally posted by chaintm

To be honest, the only differance between guild wars 2 no trinity aspect is having a no healer class. In the end, we got tanks, dps melee, backstabbers, casters, crowed control, range damage and utility. The only class NOT in the game is a healer. So for me at least, the trinity is here without one class in the game. If you spec healing you will be a better healer, if you spec any other line other then dps playing solo well good luck, you will run into exactly what you have just mentioned.

Nice thing is thou, you can have your skills all dps till your guilded and grouping or go pvp, you can change on the fly as needed so meh, in the end it really doesn't matter much. I agree however that as a solo player, dps is the only way to really go about leveling and questing in the game.

There really is not tank in GW2 - one that just absorbs damage  - because some of the mobs mitigate your boons, etc. All classes need to dodge although some more than others.

 

There are other viable builds - one just needs to test and understand them well. It is not about mashing 1,2,3 and death occurs - it is about following the skill with the appropriate follower skill.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/04/12 12:56:37 PM#16
Giving boons, applying conditions, summoning pets and using cc is the new healing and tanking.

Prevent the damage in the first place.

Easy concept if you've played say cox, where using shields and crowd control was often more effective than heals and taunts
  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

 
OP  9/04/12 12:57:27 PM#17
Originally posted by Gargola

When you have more "freedom" it is often easier to see how to "succeed" thru a narrow path, even if the actual choices are plenty.

 

Likely it will take some thinking and trying to find the advantages of different ways over the more cookie cutter oriented, but that also might make it all more interesting.

 

It's not the only game where this perception exists.  We have been spoiled into narrow paths and when presented with multiple options it might condition us to see the same narrow paths, instead.

One of the major problems at the moment is that the choices are no where near "plenty".

 

I'm used to having 1300 something skills to choose from in GuildWars, and I'm used to complexity of classes as per DAOC, SWG, EQ (complexity here was AA specs, and how you played your class), etc etc.

 

Heck, I think it's strange that GW1 has more complexity today than GW2 will have for the next 5years, and that saddens me.

 

To be clear, the skills for weaponsets, number of weaponsets, and utility skills are lacking in almost every class I've tried.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3741

RIP City of Heroes!

9/04/12 12:59:31 PM#18
Originally posted by ScorpionOne

This reply is not meant to be condoncending.  This is my view as what I'm taking from your post, Fadedbomb.

Guild Wars, in my eyes, was a thinking man's game.  It wasn't like WoW were you could run in, throw down the AOE and just spam one button (and yes, I'm overexaggerating a bit on the one button bit).  But WoW was made to be "easier" as it were.  Guild Wars on the other hand, you had to base what you did on what conditions you had, the right set up, the proper skills, the right henchmen/heroes.  And you had to know the fight you were walking into.  Factions missions were a mix of henchmen to use.  But best done with real people who were Minion Masters or were really on top of their game.  It was alot of trial and error.

Guild Wars 2 takes a little bit of that into account.  Sometimes you have to know the right group set up.  Some builds are built for groups alone.  Others not.  There may not be a dedicated healer, but you still have to be careful and think. Choose the right skills for your particular situation.  Don't go running in.  Pathing of roaming mobs is definately a consideration like it was in Guild Wars.

Again, this is how I'm seeing Guild Wars 2.  And I'm loving ever bit of it.  For me on my Guardian, if I'm soloing, I use my hammer.  Because it is effectively better than running with Sword and Board.  I would use those weapons and the appropriate skills if I was with a group of friends.  As I said, it is a thinking man's game.  Or woman's if you want to be politically correct.  :)

How much of that "thinking mans game" is really just you patting yourself on the back?

  Krytycal

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/06
Posts: 527

9/04/12 1:02:44 PM#19
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Giving boons, applying conditions, summoning pets and using cc is the new healing and tanking.

Prevent the damage in the first place.

Easy concept if you've played say cox, where using shields and crowd control was often more effective than heals and taunts

Blasphemy. Controllers and defenders buffing/debuffing instead of healing is too complex for anyone other than ANET to implement. I'm betting the only thing Cryptic developed was a time machine to go into the future and copy GW2.

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

9/04/12 1:03:37 PM#20
I switch all the time in dungeons and WvW with my ele between fire, earth, and water. I'm glad to have the points I do in water for additional healing/cleansing. So can't say I just focus on dps myself. Seems to do the ones around me and myself a lot better that way rather than simply focusing on dps.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

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