Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

(...)

There is no source. It was speculation. I believe Vannor made the post describing the way the gem store works.

 

Also, your logical deduction ignores another option. They may have set a price for gems manually without adding any gems to the system. They then based the future price of off future sales. You never need to put a single gem in the stockpile for that to work. It is, in my opinion, the most likely way they are handling it.

Problem is: how would the first trade work? Keep in mind that trades deduct one resource and increase another practically simultaneously.

I paid 50 bucks. Originally, it was to buy character slots and bank slots. Now, I am focused on my one class I'm not feeling the need to buy the slots yet, but I have that option. I will get the bank slots when crafting bags isn't enough. I'm using 4 alts as bank space for the moment.

Other than that, I intend to sell gems to make some gold to buy mats to keep my crafting on par with my level.

Not sure what else I need yet.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

As I said earlier: Arenanet artificially put a certain amount of gems in the market from start. Once they announce that those gems have been bought, sure, your argument holds, but not until then.

Can you post a link to your source for that? I was unable to find info on that.

Logically, you can deduce it by noting that already from the very start of the Gem-for-Gold system there was a buying price., which means that there was a supply. Do you think players were behind that supply? If so: how was the first buying price set? 

As for a source: the information has been around here in the forum for quite a while about how Arenanet would "kickstart" the gem-for-gold economy through artificial supply. I don't have a direct link at the moment, but when I do I'll update it, given that I have time to find it and post. Perhaps other users remeber where the original source came from?

All gems that players purchased during beta carried over to launch. So if someone bought 2,000 gems during beta, those gems were given back to them when the game was released.  (source)

"until then" is now. Cheers! o7

 

I am temporarily back and did a few minutes digging trying to find at least one official statement that supports the notion of Arenanet providing initial supply of gems.

 

I quote from http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/gamereport/everything_you_wanted_afraid_know_4xOMW7P9b03RSigxUazMXO :

 

William: No pay-to-win is very good to hear. And you said that the players determine the economy to a certain extent. Does that mean that there’s a player-based economy? Does that mean the gem conversion shop prices are gonna be determined by the players? Do you have an initial set price at the gem conversion shop?

Matt: I know, basically, that players can purchase gems and they can place them up for sale and the gold price will fluctuate and a different amount of players buy those gems. So that’s what I meant in terms of a player-controlled market. I don’t know the specifics of the implementation on that so I can’t really comment.

(NOTE: Full answer provided in follow-up email sent after the interview: ArenaNet will set the initial exchange rate for gems to gold when the servers first open for headstart, but after that the rate will fluctuate based on supply and demand of the players using the Currency Exchange. The gems and gold players get from the Currency Exchange are supplied by other players, not ArenaNet. As supply of gems goes up, the price will go down and vice versa. While we do not expect prices to fluctuate wildly, smart traders will be able to get good deals by watching the exchange rate closely and waiting for it to favor gems or gold, whichever they are looking to purchase.)

 

Now the question is: how on Earth do they introduce that "initial exchange rate"? One simple possible answer is: Arenanet provides a  supply of gems and gold at start; the comparison of the supplies dictactes the exchange rates. When a player buys gems, he obtains gems from the gem supply and his gold is transfered to the gold supply and the exchange rates change accordingly; the converse happens when a player buys gold i.e. his gems is transfered to the gem supply while he obtains gold from the gold supply.

 

If you can suggest another method for how they introduce "initial exchange rate" I am all ears. 

Obviously you were wrong about your source. And now you are just speculating like was stated earlier.

First of all, following your logic, how would they decide how many gems to put on the market if they did it your way? It's just as arbitrary as setting a starting price. Which is what they are describing in red. In plain english for you to read , no less.

In other words, they arbitrarily choose a number they think will come relatively close. Next, the market fluctuates based on an algorithm based on supply and demand. Over time, the market finds a relative equilibrium. You don't NEED to stock anything like you suggest. And what you quoted there would suggest that they didn't do that at all.

Originally posted by Loke666

You do know that Black lion keys drop, right? And that you can get them from the personal story?

Yeah, not as much as the chest but I got enough to lock up 3 chests from a drop by that lvl epic schaman in the norn starting area with my alt yesterday.

Might be worth farming, I think selling unlocked chests in the AH will be a lucrative business for me. :)

Unfortunately, I haven't had a single key drop on any of my characters.  I've gotten 2 from the personal story so far on my highest level character.  I have 18 chests now and no keys.  Fortunately, the chests don't seem that great so I haven't felt a need to open the remaining 18.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

As I said earlier: Arenanet artificially put a certain amount of gems in the market from start. Once they announce that those gems have been bought, sure, your argument holds, but not until then.

Can you post a link to your source for that? I was unable to find info on that.

Logically, you can deduce it by noting that already from the very start of the Gem-for-Gold system there was a buying price., which means that there was a supply. Do you think players were behind that supply? If so: how was the first buying price set? 

As for a source: the information has been around here in the forum for quite a while about how Arenanet would "kickstart" the gem-for-gold economy through artificial supply. I don't have a direct link at the moment, but when I do I'll update it, given that I have time to find it and post. Perhaps other users remeber where the original source came from?

All gems that players purchased during beta carried over to launch. So if someone bought 2,000 gems during beta, those gems were given back to them when the game was released.  (source)

"until then" is now. Cheers! o7

 

I am temporarily back and did a few minutes digging trying to find at least one official statement that supports the notion of Arenanet providing initial supply of gems.

 

I quote from http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/gamereport/everything_you_wanted_afraid_know_4xOMW7P9b03RSigxUazMXO :

 

William: No pay-to-win is very good to hear. And you said that the players determine the economy to a certain extent. Does that mean that there’s a player-based economy? Does that mean the gem conversion shop prices are gonna be determined by the players? Do you have an initial set price at the gem conversion shop?

Matt: I know, basically, that players can purchase gems and they can place them up for sale and the gold price will fluctuate and a different amount of players buy those gems. So that’s what I meant in terms of a player-controlled market. I don’t know the specifics of the implementation on that so I can’t really comment.

(NOTE: Full answer provided in follow-up email sent after the interview: ArenaNet will set the initial exchange rate for gems to gold when the servers first open for headstart, but after that the rate will fluctuate based on supply and demand of the players using the Currency Exchange. The gems and gold players get from the Currency Exchange are supplied by other players, not ArenaNet. As supply of gems goes up, the price will go down and vice versa. While we do not expect prices to fluctuate wildly, smart traders will be able to get good deals by watching the exchange rate closely and waiting for it to favor gems or gold, whichever they are looking to purchase.)

 

Now the question is: how on Earth do they introduce that "initial exchange rate"? One simple possible answer is: Arenanet provides a  supply of gems and gold at start; the comparison of the supplies dictactes the exchange rates. When a player buys gems, he obtains gems from the gem supply and his gold is transfered to the gold supply and the exchange rates change accordingly; the converse happens when a player buys gold i.e. his gems is transfered to the gem supply while he obtains gold from the gold supply.

 

If you can suggest another method for how they introduce "initial exchange rate" I am all ears. 

Obviously you were wrong about your source. And now you are just speculating like was stated earlier.

 

First of all, following your logic, how would they decide how many gems to put on the market if they did it your way? It's just as arbitrary as setting a starting price. Which is what they are describing in red. In plain english for you to read , no less.

 

In other words, they arbitrarily choose a number they think will come relatively close. Next, the market fluctuates based on an algorithm based on supply and demand. Over time, the market finds a relative equilibrium. You don't NEED to stock anything like you suggest. And what you quoted there would suggest that they didn't do that at all.

You still have the problem with the first trade. The first trade needs to work, and given the current system how can you "buy" something if there is no supply of it? Your first trade will not happen in the system you suggest  since there is no supply.  Keep in mind that the trades are done with the system rather than directly to a player: if the system has no supply, and players have supply, how can the first trade happen?

Edit:

Also, no, it isn't as arbitrary as setting a starting price, because with the system suggested the system would never run out of supply, because as the gem supply approaches 0, the gold requirement for buying remaining gems would go towards infinity if designed that way. In a regular free market system, supply can run out. It is actually a quite beautiful system.

Furthermore, if the system is like the one I am guessing, the amount of gems in system would dictate how fast the prices change. 

Too much. I'm addicted to collecting dyes and minis. Its my playstyle though, im a big collector in MMOS. Plus buying sets before ANET raises the prices to astronomical heights. Already got my order and cultural wpns before they raised those pricess. Just grabbed some cultural armor before they raise the prices for THOSE!

But usually im a market guy so the fact the TP is down is killing my gold. Just hope its up for good soon.

Zero. So far :)

I am only level 30 though.

I'm stock piling chests so I need some keys soon... and some bank slots, inventory, etc...

then eventually some extra character slots.

Will likely buy my bank slots with gold though, since I have enough already.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

 

You still have the problem with the first trade. The first trade needs to work, and given the current system how can you "buy" something if there is no supply of it? Your first trade will not happen in the system you suggest  since there is no supply.  Keep in mind that the trades are done with the system rather than directly to a player: if the system has no supply, and players have supply, how can the first trade happen?

I'm trying to figure out what you're missing. I think it's this:

The market can have 0 gems on it and people will still be able to trade gold for gems. The price is BASED on supply and demand. If there is no supply or demand, the system does not stop working. People with gems can still get gold and people with gold can still get gems.

From there, you can hopefully see that they are able to fix a starting price and let the algorithm go. 

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

 

You still have the problem with the first trade. The first trade needs to work, and given the current system how can you "buy" something if there is no supply of it? Your first trade will not happen in the system you suggest  since there is no supply.  Keep in mind that the trades are done with the system rather than directly to a player: if the system has no supply, and players have supply, how can the first trade happen?

I'm trying to figure out what you're missing. I think it's this:

 

The market can have 0 gems on it and people will still be able to trade gold for gems. The price is BASED on supply and demand. If there is no supply or demand, the system does not stop working. People with gems can still get gold and people with gold can still get gems.

 

From there, you can hopefully see that they are able to fix a starting price and let the algorithm go. 

Yes, but from where do they get the gold and gems? From the system, right? Which is equivalent with the system having a supply of gold and gems.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

 

You still have the problem with the first trade. The first trade needs to work, and given the current system how can you "buy" something if there is no supply of it? Your first trade will not happen in the system you suggest  since there is no supply.  Keep in mind that the trades are done with the system rather than directly to a player: if the system has no supply, and players have supply, how can the first trade happen?

I'm trying to figure out what you're missing. I think it's this:

 

The market can have 0 gems on it and people will still be able to trade gold for gems. The price is BASED on supply and demand. If there is no supply or demand, the system does not stop working. People with gems can still get gold and people with gold can still get gems.

 

From there, you can hopefully see that they are able to fix a starting price and let the algorithm go. 

Yes, but from where do they get the gold and gems? From the system, right? Which is equivalent with the system having a supply of gold and gems.

No. Not from the system....... ok, how else can I explain this...

They are recieving data about how many people are buying gems and how many people are buying gold. The price fluctuates based on this information.

The gold I spent on gems disappears. The gems they traded for gold disappear. What I get is actually the amount of gems the algorithm has decided a person gets for the amount of gold I pay. And vice versa.

2x 20€

Bank slots, bag slots.

I regret taking up cooking.

If anyone was interested, I calculated the average that people are paying according to this poll.

As of 289 votes, people have spent an average of $14.60 +.

I have bought nothing.

I might buy more bank slots though.

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by Loke666

You do know that Black lion keys drop, right? And that you can get them from the personal story?

Yeah, not as much as the chest but I got enough to lock up 3 chests from a drop by that lvl epic schaman in the norn starting area with my alt yesterday.

Might be worth farming, I think selling unlocked chests in the AH will be a lucrative business for me. :)

Unfortunately, I haven't had a single key drop on any of my characters.  I've gotten 2 from the personal story so far on my highest level character.  I have 18 chests now and no keys.  Fortunately, the chests don't seem that great so I haven't felt a need to open the remaining 18.

I've had one dropped myself, and an other one from personal story (only 36 by now ;). I think the drop-rate is very low for the keys though...