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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Faith in MMORPGs: Restored

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65 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/12 4:15:42 AM#21
Originally posted by Incomparable

Does GW2 have open world pvp in it's questing areas?

It's being called World versus World and it's separate from the pve areas. This was most likely done to appease the pvp pacifists and to make the game less hardcore.

There is pve content in world vs. world like dynamic events, secrets, and monsters.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2588

9/04/12 4:18:59 AM#22
Originally posted by Incomparable
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

What will keep GW2 playable for years is its goodgame play and build/combo depth, especailly in dungeons and Orr (basically a huge raid).

I'm amazed how people keep disregarding the gameplay of a game as one of the main factors that will keep people hooked in favor of "goals" and "content size".

New content will just be the icing.

 

The difference is being an online game versus single. Single player games have different expectations which are more relative to the company developing them compared to the genre as a whole. So mmos, an online game, sets expectations which can be grouped as sand box or themepark and something in between.

So in mmos that want to have pvp in the open world, while being a themepark mmo are mixing expectations and creating content that has yet to be fine tuned to an epic scale of having both sand box and themepark mechanics in one mmo. So pvpers will want more immersion and simulated realities than a limiting themepark will provide.

And it seems the genre itself makes people set up expectations which are never developed towards.

For example open world pvp, that has pve content which can relate to housing, construction and destruction as well.

By avoiding that, the mmo is just a themepark of a journey to beginning to end and making it as enjoyable without making it simulate any kind of pvp reality in the open world.

Does GW2 have open world pvp in it's questing areas? I enjoyed the game but I am too experienced with MMos to continue any kind of grind without getting the content I wish to play as a pvper mostly or whatever high quality content a game may offer. In gw2 case the only content worth playing is DE, story, raids. However without enough DE, and no open world pvp to make it interesting for me, I had to stop.

That's just me though. I stopped at lvl 15. And maybe the experience does get better. Correct me if i am wrong.

Basically if you stopped at level 15 you stopped at very easy AI.

The level 30 story mode dungeon (which is the easy mode) is something like hard AI.

Do you know why I talk about AI?

Because your point of views come exactly from this long line of MMORPGs that have no difficulty curve during their levelling phase.

In GW2, the challenge grows with level, not just the levelling phase/end-game divide.

Now, GW2 doesn't have world PvP (or even any kind of open world player competition) - they want people to play together as as a big team.

Stil, sPvP is available at level 2, fully balanced - you are bumped to level cap and given every piece of equipment. WvW is also available at level 2, but to be true, even though you are bumped to level 80, you aren't a real level 80 and so much weaker. Additionally, WvW is much more enjoyable with organized groups, either small or massive.

I understand the need for distractions from very easy AI, like housing, open world PvP, etc, in MMORPGs where AI is dumb ad stays dumb until some raid - but GW2 is much more akin to a single player game in terms of its difficulty curve.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Lawlmonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 945

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

9/04/12 4:30:15 AM#23
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Lawlmonster

No? I'm not talking about the product staying online, the original fucking Everquest is still online. I'm talking about retaining interest and providing longevity, long term goals to work toward or some hint that this isn't as shallow as the mechanics read on paper. What is there for MMO players who aren't just looking for "fun"?

What are you looking for in a video game if not "fun"?  If you mean a pointless gear grind, there are games with that, and games on the horizon with that.  Is it logical to inherently doubt the success of something because it's different?  I don't know, seems like foggy crystal ballin' to me.

The doubt doesn't stem from the product being different, but rather too much of the same. Also, I play single player games for fun. I play lobby based multiplayer games, or FPS's with friends, if I want to have fun. Fun is fleeting, and it doesn't last. The reason I play MMO's is for the competitive nature of the environment, and knowing that I have something to attain for a long period of time. That doesn't necessarily distill strictly into a gear grind, but could come in the form of territorial control, politics or the economy, and countless other mechanics I'm sure exist but I'm not imaginative enough to come up with. PvE and realm vs. realm simply isn't enough for me, which is why I originally asked the question: where's the longevity, and what mechanics specifically from GW2 do you think gives the product a chance to stay relevant?

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/12 4:33:33 AM#24
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Additionally, WvW is much more enjoyable with organized groups, either small or massive.

Almost everything in GW2 was designed with anarchy in mind - like a sandbox - so lone wolves are perfectly viable. Spontaneous order and all that. The minimap displays friendlies as green dots within a certain limited range so players can easily find where their team is.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

9/04/12 4:37:30 AM#25
Originally posted by Plasmicredx
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Additionally, WvW is much more enjoyable with organized groups, either small or massive.

Almost everything in GW2 was designed with anarchy in mind - like a sandbox - so lone wolves are perfectly viable. Spontaneous order and all that. The minimap displays friendlies as green dots within a certain limited range so players can easily find where their team is.

Just because GW2 allows for people to work together without talking in a lot of areas doesn't mean that the experienced isn't enhanced with communication.  We are social creatures after all (to say nothing of the superior level of planning communication provides).

  Fozzik

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/03
Posts: 543

9/04/12 4:48:53 AM#26

I totally agree with the original poster. My faith in the genre and its initial promise is being restored. It's still possible to make a world that's huge and that feels alive and has depth and tons of things to do (with REAL cities). It's still possible to create visuals and music that leaves me in awe, even after 13 years. It actually is still possible to surprise me with elements that I never thought I'd see, and little details that nobody else has bothered building into their game.


I loved EQ, but it was my first love, and a lot of people said there would never be another feeling like that because everything was new back then. They said it wasn't as good as I remembered, because I was seeing it through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. In some ways I was beginning to believe those people...beginning to think that the genre had strayed to far down a single path towards games that I didn't enjoy and would never move in any other direction.


But I'm falling in love again, and it feels like the first time. :)

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/12 4:52:08 AM#27
Originally posted by Drachasor

Just because GW2 allows for people to work together without talking in a lot of areas doesn't mean that the experienced isn't enhanced with communication.  We are social creatures after all (to say nothing of the superior level of planning communication provides).

We'll agree to disagree. This goes off topic into if the government should allow internet anonymity and free speech, among other freedoms that is going to get some people's britches in a bundle.

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/04/12 4:54:49 AM#28
Originally posted by Fozzik

I totally agree with the original poster. My faith in the genre and its initial promise is being restored. It's still possible to make a world that's huge and that feels alive and has depth and tons of things to do (with REAL cities). It's still possible to create visuals and music that leaves me in awe, even after 13 years. It actually is still possible to surprise me with elements that I never thought I'd see, and little details that nobody else has bothered building into their game.


I loved EQ, but it was my first love, and a lot of people said there would never be another feeling like that because everything was new back then. They said it wasn't as good as I remembered, because I was seeing it through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. In some ways I was beginning to believe those people...beginning to think that the genre had strayed to far down a single path towards games that I didn't enjoy and would never move in any other direction.


But I'm falling in love again, and it feels like the first time. :)

You have my emote /cheer.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2588

9/04/12 5:06:19 AM#29
Originally posted by Plasmicredx
Originally posted by Drachasor

Just because GW2 allows for people to work together without talking in a lot of areas doesn't mean that the experienced isn't enhanced with communication.  We are social creatures after all (to say nothing of the superior level of planning communication provides).

We'll agree to disagree. This goes off topic into if the government should allow internet anonymity and free speech, among other freedoms that is going to get some people's britches in a bundle.

I didn't say you can't enjoy WvW solo or with randoms, but it is one of those areas, alongside dungeons, where having a coordinated team able to tackle bigger and more diverse objectives enhance the experience.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/04/12 5:14:06 AM#30
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
what exactly is the op trying to say?

Suspect it's a backhanded WoW insult combined with some mild GW2 fanboy.

It was clear the two games were destined to be natural enemies...well, provided the Fan Camps followed the normal behavior, anyway.  

On a strictly not-competing basis, you have to wonder why the fans feel compelled to behave as normal.  :shrug:

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

9/04/12 5:19:35 AM#31
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Hey OP you do know EQ2 came out before WoW right?

Uh, 19 days, was it?  This distinction is somehow important?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

9/04/12 5:25:05 AM#32
Originally posted by Lawlmonster

The doubt doesn't stem from the product being different, but rather too much of the same. Also, I play single player games for fun. I play lobby based multiplayer games, or FPS's with friends, if I want to have fun. Fun is fleeting, and it doesn't last. The reason I play MMO's is for the competitive nature of the environment, and knowing that I have something to attain for a long period of time. That doesn't necessarily distill strictly into a gear grind, but could come in the form of territorial control, politics or the economy, and countless other mechanics I'm sure exist but I'm not imaginative enough to come up with. PvE and realm vs. realm simply isn't enough for me, which is why I originally asked the question: where's the longevity, and what mechanics specifically from GW2 do you think gives the product a chance to stay relevant?

It might not ever be the game for you but trust me there are a lot of players that feel differently.

Server/Realm Pride will exist (it is already starting) and "rivalry matchups" against other servers are already developing, so those (eventually 2-week-long) WvW matches will have a lot of meaning for many.

I no longer need to jump into TF2 to get "my fix" of hot-join PvP fun - I just hit "Go to the Mists" and get the same experience right in GW2 (also if I feel like a good sports game Keg Brawl is one of the best I've ever played!).

When I feel like raiding or group activities there are numerous events throughout the world for me to participate in with others and I don't need to set my schedule around 24 other people to do it (and even better when my friends are on I can go and do a variety with them without dealing with a stupid lockout).

Unlike "gear grind/progression" enthusiasts I've hated Themeparks for all the content they completely trivialize and discard as I level up. GW2 offers a much larger and preferable play experience to me (and it seems many others). I don't need new gear or to chase "more powerful shineys" to have fun - but there are "shineys" to chase as 400-600 Skill Points for the uber-legendary Greatsword should keep me quite busy for a long long time.

Also, considering I spent every BWE and Stress Test in Queensdale (the Human starting area) and every time I found new events I'd never seen before, I rather trust ANet to keep injecting new DEs to keep adding more spice and variety to the world. Their plan is to double the number of DEs in the game from 1500 to 3000 over time so the zones will continue to evolve and the experience will continue to feel fresh and different after many, many playthroughs - and I feel comfortable saying that because Queensdale feels that way to me already.

Even Blizzard was well aware that there were far more "casuals" playing their game with no interest in progression based gear grind raiding or PvP than people at the opposite spectrum. I think GW2 is going to much more strongly appeal to that 80-90% of the player base which gives it potentially a very large pool of people to keep Tyria populated and alive for a long time too come.

  DoomsDay01

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/08
Posts: 786

9/04/12 6:18:29 AM#33

I come from a long line of MMO history dating back to M59 and muds before that. I am one of those "old and obsolete" mmo gamers that the young crowd likes to make fun of. So right off the bat I am going to disagree with the OP. This game, like GW1 is not what I would consider an MMORPG so there is no way it can restore faith in them. With that said though, This IS a very good game!

This is the first game that I have played in a long time that gives me the feeling of just being lost, having no idea what you are supposed to be doing and just general chaos and I love it! I am almost level 30 now and the game has really hooked me. This is the first game in years that I want to blow off my daily real life duties and actually play more of. That is a rare feeling in todays games and I give them big kudos for that! I have not even touched on the PVP or WvW aspect of the game, this is just purely from a pve experience.

I think the world they have created has been pretty interesting thus far. The under water areas are amazing and I must say, almost breathtaking and I don't know if they took this from EQ1 but they actually seem harder then when on the surface world.

I played GW1 and must say that the only real thing that I liked from it was the story itself. With that said, the personal story in GW2 has been absolutely fantastic and I couldn't be happier. I still don't know if I like the story board feel of the cutscenes but I do enjoy the whole plot and it is what drives me to level. I just can't wait to see what is next in my story!

 

Now that is not saying there are not some serious issues that really bug the crap out of me. The absolute biggest issue is the overflow queue. WTF was they thinking when they designed this queue. It has to be the worst queue system in the history of gaming! Not only are you thrown into this overflow area, but once you do get back into your "real world" and you decide to warp to another waypoint in the same area, you are thrown back into the overflow queue, even though your still in the same area! Seriously, this has been one of the worst experiences I have had in a game in a long time. That entire overflow system needs to be reworked and fixed ASAP. In some ways it reminds me of what I really hated about GW1 and that was if your in a group and someone gets disconnected, well, everyone is screwed. there was no way to get back to your group without them starting the entire instance over again. It was the biggest reason I quit playing GW1, because gaming with friends was almost impossible. Thus one of my reasons of keeping this game as NOT an MMORPG.

There are other things that annoy me in the game but the overflow thing is the biggest for me.  Has the game restored faith for me? No, but it has brought me out of the funk that has been online gaming for a while now. That is not to say that a month down the road, I will still be playing. I honestly dont know! But for now, I am having fun again and I think that does deserve some type of recognition to arena net for their efforts.

  Tawn47

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 515

9/04/12 6:50:42 AM#34
Originally posted by Plasmicredx

My timeline.

Dark Age of Camelot releases some time in 2001. Awareness to the existence of MMORPGs for the first time is formed. Immediately fallen in love.

Dark Age of Camelot releases Trials of Atlantis in 2003. Game turns into a raid-a-holic atmosphere. Faith in MMORPGs begins to diminish. Quit playing.

World of Warcraft releases in 2004. Hopes begin to rise. Hits 60 and realizes the game is about an end game gear grind. Quit playing except for new expansions.

Faith in MMORPGs dies in 2005.

Many MMOs come out using the same gear grind systems between 2004 and now.

Arenanet says they will make an MMORPG that fixes common MMORPG problems with Guild Wars 2.Guild Wars 2 releases. Faith in MMORPGs (and humanity) is restored.

Nail. On. Head.  

This is pretty much my story too.  The WvWvW is amazing and a great evolution of DaoC's warfronts - although about 7 years too late!  Hopefully GW2 is the model future games will aspire to.

  gurugeorge

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/08
Posts: 472

9/04/12 8:20:19 AM#35
Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I come from a long line of MMO history dating back to M59 and muds before that. I am one of those "old and obsolete" mmo gamers that the young crowd likes to make fun of. So right off the bat I am going to disagree with the OP. This game, like GW1 is not what I would consider an MMORPG so there is no way it can restore faith in them. With that said though, This IS a very good game!

This is the first game that I have played in a long time that gives me the feeling of just being lost, having no idea what you are supposed to be doing and just general chaos and I love it! I am almost level 30 now and the game has really hooked me. This is the first game in years that I want to blow off my daily real life duties and actually play more of. That is a rare feeling in todays games and I give them big kudos for that! I have not even touched on the PVP or WvW aspect of the game, this is just purely from a pve experience.

I think the world they have created has been pretty interesting thus far. The under water areas are amazing and I must say, almost breathtaking and I don't know if they took this from EQ1 but they actually seem harder then when on the surface world.

I played GW1 and must say that the only real thing that I liked from it was the story itself. With that said, the personal story in GW2 has been absolutely fantastic and I couldn't be happier. I still don't know if I like the story board feel of the cutscenes but I do enjoy the whole plot and it is what drives me to level. I just can't wait to see what is next in my story!

So given all that, what about it makes you not consider it an MMORPG?  What box isn't it ticking?  Are you thinking that only sandboxes are "true MMOs" or something like that?

Because your description makes it sound like an MMORPG to me.

  DoomsDay01

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/08
Posts: 786

9/04/12 8:33:47 AM#36
Originally posted by gurugeorge
Originally posted by DoomsDay01

I come from a long line of MMO history dating back to M59 and muds before that. I am one of those "old and obsolete" mmo gamers that the young crowd likes to make fun of. So right off the bat I am going to disagree with the OP. This game, like GW1 is not what I would consider an MMORPG so there is no way it can restore faith in them. With that said though, This IS a very good game!

This is the first game that I have played in a long time that gives me the feeling of just being lost, having no idea what you are supposed to be doing and just general chaos and I love it! I am almost level 30 now and the game has really hooked me. This is the first game in years that I want to blow off my daily real life duties and actually play more of. That is a rare feeling in todays games and I give them big kudos for that! I have not even touched on the PVP or WvW aspect of the game, this is just purely from a pve experience.

I think the world they have created has been pretty interesting thus far. The under water areas are amazing and I must say, almost breathtaking and I don't know if they took this from EQ1 but they actually seem harder then when on the surface world.

I played GW1 and must say that the only real thing that I liked from it was the story itself. With that said, the personal story in GW2 has been absolutely fantastic and I couldn't be happier. I still don't know if I like the story board feel of the cutscenes but I do enjoy the whole plot and it is what drives me to level. I just can't wait to see what is next in my story!

So given all that, what about it makes you not consider it an MMORPG?  What box isn't it ticking?  Are you thinking that only sandboxes are "true MMOs" or something like that?

Because your description makes it sound like an MMORPG to me.

 

Well it is and it isn't. If you compare it to the originals, its not, simply because of instancing. Since instancing has become popular in todays society, most will consider it as an MMORPG. The problem in GW2's game is that instancing is also the downfall for the party system. It is very difficult to be in a party and do any traveling what so ever. The overflow queue is proof of that failure. Mostly for me, it depends on how instancing has been implemented in the game. GW1, not an MMO. DDO, not an MMO. City of heros, not an MMO. Basically anytime you have more than 1 instance of a world it has now become a hybrid if you will. So in other words, any game I have to ask my group, what world or zone number are you in, it has lost its MMORPG status in my opinion.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

9/04/12 8:41:38 AM#37
Originally posted by Jeff7477
You are going to be quite disappointed.

And your information is from? I have played a feww MMO's and the only 2 I have been disappointed in were TOR and TSW.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Lawlmonster

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 945

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

9/04/12 10:05:15 AM#38
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by Lawlmonster

The doubt doesn't stem from the product being different, but rather too much of the same. Also, I play single player games for fun. I play lobby based multiplayer games, or FPS's with friends, if I want to have fun. Fun is fleeting, and it doesn't last. The reason I play MMO's is for the competitive nature of the environment, and knowing that I have something to attain for a long period of time. That doesn't necessarily distill strictly into a gear grind, but could come in the form of territorial control, politics or the economy, and countless other mechanics I'm sure exist but I'm not imaginative enough to come up with. PvE and realm vs. realm simply isn't enough for me, which is why I originally asked the question: where's the longevity, and what mechanics specifically from GW2 do you think gives the product a chance to stay relevant?

It might not ever be the game for you but trust me there are a lot of players that feel differently.

Server/Realm Pride will exist (it is already starting) and "rivalry matchups" against other servers are already developing, so those (eventually 2-week-long) WvW matches will have a lot of meaning for many.

I no longer need to jump into TF2 to get "my fix" of hot-join PvP fun - I just hit "Go to the Mists" and get the same experience right in GW2 (also if I feel like a good sports game Keg Brawl is one of the best I've ever played!).

When I feel like raiding or group activities there are numerous events throughout the world for me to participate in with others and I don't need to set my schedule around 24 other people to do it (and even better when my friends are on I can go and do a variety with them without dealing with a stupid lockout).

Unlike "gear grind/progression" enthusiasts I've hated Themeparks for all the content they completely trivialize and discard as I level up. GW2 offers a much larger and preferable play experience to me (and it seems many others). I don't need new gear or to chase "more powerful shineys" to have fun - but there are "shineys" to chase as 400-600 Skill Points for the uber-legendary Greatsword should keep me quite busy for a long long time.

Also, considering I spent every BWE and Stress Test in Queensdale (the Human starting area) and every time I found new events I'd never seen before, I rather trust ANet to keep injecting new DEs to keep adding more spice and variety to the world. Their plan is to double the number of DEs in the game from 1500 to 3000 over time so the zones will continue to evolve and the experience will continue to feel fresh and different after many, many playthroughs - and I feel comfortable saying that because Queensdale feels that way to me already.

Even Blizzard was well aware that there were far more "casuals" playing their game with no interest in progression based gear grind raiding or PvP than people at the opposite spectrum. I think GW2 is going to much more strongly appeal to that 80-90% of the player base which gives it potentially a very large pool of people to keep Tyria populated and alive for a long time too come.

Great response. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

9/04/12 10:07:27 AM#39
Originally posted by Plasmicredx

My timeline.

Dark Age of Camelot releases some time in 2001. Awareness to the existence of MMORPGs for the first time is formed. Immediately fallen in love.

Dark Age of Camelot releases Trials of Atlantis in 2003. Game turns into a raid-a-holic atmosphere. Faith in MMORPGs begins to diminish. Quit playing.

World of Warcraft releases in 2004. Hopes begin to rise. Hits 60 and realizes the game is about an end game gear grind. Quit playing except for new expansions.

Faith in MMORPGs dies in 2005.

Many MMOs come out using the same gear grind systems between 2004 and now.

Arenanet says they will make an MMORPG that fixes common MMORPG problems with Guild Wars 2.Guild Wars 2 releases. Faith in MMORPGs (and humanity) is restored.

You reach GW2 endgame in Fall of 2012.  Realize there isn't shit to do.  Faith in MMOs once again crushed.  

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

9/04/12 10:09:32 AM#40
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Hey OP you do know EQ2 came out before WoW right?

Uh, 19 days, was it?  This distinction is somehow important?

19 days is a lot of time for Blizzard to steal every single concept from EQ2 and incorporate it into their game.  Or so I'm told by EQ2 fans.  ;)

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