I primary PnP over MMO whenever possible. Lets face it, even in a sandbox game you CANNOT match the freedom of PnP. MMO's have specific goals and outlines, its a pretty obvious statement because you cant program everything. On top of that im pretty sure there are things you can do in PnP that are Illegal to program.

so MMO will never hold a candle to what is possible in PnP. Sadly as the imagination dies more and more in each generation So too will PnP.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Souldrainer
I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

No crap.  That's because you can't listen to 10 people talk and respond to them all.  Smaller groups mean you can give each person more attention.  Heck, movies with 10 main characters are always worse than ones with just a handful and some side characters here and there for flavor.  It's a similar principle.  There are limits to our ability to give things proper attention.

It's part of why it is crazy to expect a PnP experience from an MMO.  They have fundamentally different approaches.

Game of Thrones would like to have a word with you, although it isn't a movie :D:

Originally posted by NorseGod

From SWG(pre-CU), I moved to EVE. This was also my first time using TS/Vent. As soon as I logged in, I get shouted at by some game general toughguy telling me what to do the second I logged in everyday.

I hated TS/Vent even more later playing other games and the sounds of some people's voices made me question why I bother playing games at all. They don't sound like anyone I would ever talk to IRL. Definately nobody I would take orders from. So, I avoid TS/Vent and anything that requires me to use it.

Wow, that's what I call a really shitty experience. I was in several guilds that used Vent/TS and though I never borthered to buy a mike I kinda enjoyed listening to the banter from time to time. Can't recall anybody giving me orders. Except raidleaders and warband leaders but that's how teams work and it was more about directions than orders anyway.

Funny because this paper-pencil fuddy duddy is having all kinds of conversations with old and new folks, focusing on a single guild has helped me. Also, grouping isn't necessary for my fun, since nothing is taggable in this game (a mistake I've seen in every mmo since the beginning) it's very much more fun.

I don't have to compete the game gives me the drops from what i kill, no one is gonna troll my attempts at farming mats or getting resource nodes. It's quite brilliant.

Sorry you had this experience, the seven days isn't up yet maybe you should transfer to a friendlier server.

Originally posted by Syno23
Did you forget Dungeons, WvW, Dynamic Events, and what not. They all REQUIRE a group. So I dont know what you're talking about buddy.

Themepark games have been on trend for a long time of removing the need to group up just to play, which is what the OP is complaining about. The reason for this is because the vast majority of people cannot dedicate the time required for simply finding a group. I'll use FFXI (best PvE experience I've had until GW2). Once you hit level 35+ you could spend hours just looking for a group to level. That is hours of wasted time. Players demanded a change and developers answered with things like LFG systems, instant dugeon ques, etc. It has detracted from the social experience outside of guilds and it is a shame.

To the OP. Your hope for the idustry is in the wrong type of MMO. I think you'll be happier in a Sandbox MMO. Give EvE a try, ArchAge when it comes out, WildStar (looks like a good Sandbox Hybrid), and World of Darkness when its out.

Originally posted by teakinator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

>>>

So, to those that I have played with online (Dairith, Qen, Nicci, Windbear, Xerios, Windbear, and Maxpain) thank you for the memories from the EQ and WoW franchise.  As of an hour ago, I have decided that GW2 was the last MMO I will ever play.  I have deleted the game from the computer and actually pulled out my paper and pencil PATHFINDER books and am forming a local group of adults (have 4 so far) and we are going to have the interaction that we hoped could have been achieved from videogames.   So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players.  Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships.  I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons.  Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players.  So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper.

Teak Dharan

Ahh Pathfinder, the true (and last) version of the AD&D RPG.

You dont happen to be in the Pacific NW are you? LOL

Although I am enjoying GW2 a lot, nothing, and I mean nothing compairs to a well designed and run AD&D, now Pathfinder campaign.

I know you'll have fun, and I envy you the great times ahead.

GW2 can actually be very social and there are tons of things one can do together as example:

- I went to a pets taming tour with guildies and friends

- WvsWvsW with friends as also guildies

- DEs with guildies and friends

- Dungeon runs with guildies and friends

- gathering materials together

There are a lot of activities one can share with each other, you just need to get together with people that like to group and do things together instead of soloing.

What makes me wonder about your post is the following:

- why didn't you tried to play a roleplay guild?

- did you join any active guild at all?

- did you make any suggestions for activities to do together with your friends/guildies or did you waited till others did?

There is even a guild database for GW2 with all the servers and their guilds in it you could pick a roleplay guild from:

http://www.gw2guilds.org/

Of course playing a MMO is different than playing with pencil, dice and paper but GW2 gives you lots of roleplay possibilities you could utilize with a roleplay guild and have fun with.

For that you don't really need to be a classical cleric/priest/monk and stand there spamming heals either.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide and have fun with your real life group! :)

Originally posted by teakinator

Originally posted by StanlyStanko

If you're going PnP, dig up some Shadowrun!

Break from the cartoony high fantasy for awhile.

I also DM Traveller Pencil and Paper too!

Wasnt Traveller the predecessor to Star Frontiers?

Ive always heard about Traveller but could never find the sourcebooks for it.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Souldrainer
I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

No crap.  That's because you can't listen to 10 people talk and respond to them all.  Smaller groups mean you can give each person more attention.  Heck, movies with 10 main characters are always worse than ones with just a handful and some side characters here and there for flavor.  It's a similar principle.  There are limits to our ability to give things proper attention.

It's part of why it is crazy to expect a PnP experience from an MMO.  They have fundamentally different approaches.

Game of Thrones would like to have a word with you, although it isn't a movie :D:

And as such you'd have to judge it episode by episode.

I've never watched the show, but I wager they don't have a single episode that gives focus to 10 characters at once.  Rather they have episodes focus on a smaller subset of the whole cast (which doesn't mean that other people aren't present, merely that they aren't the focus of a particule ep).  A large cast doesn't mean they are focusing on all the members of it in any given time frame.  That's simply not possible.  Humans can't really pay attention to more than one person speaking at once, for instance.  Which means people have to talk one at a time, which means there are limits to how much character development can happen to X characters in a particular 40 minutes or two hours.

But that's all rather off-topic.  The point is the OP is being unrealistic by expecting MMOs to be like pen and paper games for a lot of reasons.  Part of it is that PnP games are a tighter niche of people working together (games with 7+ rapidly become unwieldy, and 4 or so players is generally best).  Another large part is that PnP games just provide a huge number of options for dealing with everyone.

The premise that any MMO was EVER like a PnP game is laughable.  EQ?  UO?  Bah!  They weren't up to snuff in PnP credentials.  They didn't limit you by your imagination, but rather by the very, very narrow set of what the game allows.  Talk to the big bad?  Not possible and that's just one avenue of an unlimited number of options pen and paper games allow.  Measure any MMO in this manner and it will come up short.

Personally, when I see other players around fighting a mob i'll always go help out. Maybe I'll chat with them but most likely not:

- I'll do an emote (/wave for example). 20% chance

- I'll talk to them and say a few words (for example, cool place here, thanks for rezzing, have fun). 5% chance

- I'll whisper them and have a small conversation, or ask to join a group with them. 1% chance

- I'll add them to friends list. Probably a 0.5% chance

But I could have like 20 to 50 times I interact with a player or a group of players totally unknown to me each evening I'm playing GW2. I'm not chatting more or trying to find new friends more because I already have my friends ingame. I'm always on voice chat with my party and my guild while i'm playing and that wasn't the case when I played MMO's 8 years ago. I'm already sharing experiences and growing memories with my friends. On top of that, most of my friends in GW2 are real life friends and we get together in the same room of my friends place when we play.

I like the fact that I can play with other people but don't have to chat all the time to form groups. I'll help them, they help me, and maybe we will meet again and maybe we will build a new friendship. It's like in real life... you meet plenty of people every day but that doesn't mean you have to get up close and personal to everyone.

Originally posted by aSynchro

Though i agree that MMORPG, especially themeparks, will never give you as much freedom than p&p, you can still have fun with them.

Let's be honest, Sandboxes are literally no better.  They might provide more ability for you to decide what to do, but such game worlds are lacking in proactive big bads that change things.  A good Pen and Paper game has a world that not just reacts to the players but also has people that continue to act on their own.  The GM also works to ensure each session is interesting, fun, etc.

If we wanted to try to compare to to Sandboxes verses Themeparks, really it is a blend of both and more.

But fundamentally an MMO can't deliver a Pen and Paper experience.  A game that has to cater to thousands or more players is going to have drastically different dynamics from one that caters to a just a few people.

I don't understand the OP's angst even though I'm an old PnP RPG player as well as avid boardgame collector.

Look mate, computer games are NOT PnP games.

Believe it or not, these are two completely DIFFERENT MEDIUMS.

When I go to a theater to see a play I don't expect breathtaking CGI and car chases. When I go to see a movie I don't  get pissed off because it's not interactive enough. Dig?

PnP RPG is a different way of spending time with your friends and having fun than online games are. No, you still cannot drink beer and pretzels and throw dice on the people via internet. That's why PnP RPGs and boardgames in general are going through a revival in popularity right now. People used to think that computer games are an "improvement", an "evolution" of boardgames while now they realize that these two are really different things altogether. Computer games have their own entertainment niche and boardgames have another and if you consider them separate forms of entertainment then there should be no reason to get pissed off at one or the other.

So, if you expected a beer guzzling, pretzel devouring and dice throwing experience from a game that you play by sitting alone at your PC then there is no one else to blame for your disappoinment than yourself.

That being said, there is no reason not to enjoy MMORPGs in their own right. If it's social side that you're missing, you can invite those four friends of yours for a relaxing romp through GW2 with your headsets on, or better yet, invite them over like you would for Pathfinder but tell them to bring and setup their gaming rigs. I play online games with my wife in the same room and they are really fun and social when enjoyed that way. However, when me and the missus want some beer/pretzel/dice throwing we invite friends over for a nice game of WHFRPG or some Ticket to Ride/Risk/Dominion/whatever... we don't berate GW2 or TF2 for lack of something these games are not supposed to have in the first place.

Again, a MMORPG is NOT a PnP RPG with 1000s of players sitting at your "virtual gaming table." It is not, just like the street in front of your house is NOT equivalent to your bigger living room with 100s of good friends strolling by. Start the MMO with RL friends you know. Set up a guild and invite people you come across that seem fun and cool enough to accept them into your inner circle. Basically do the same thing you would when forming a RL gaming group and you'll do fine social-wise. Just don't ever expect beer/pretzes/dice throwing - you won't get those no matter how hard you try.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

[on comparing PnP with MMO's]

sadly it is much like looking for that same enjoyment you get from reading a good book from your tv. it's just not the same, one stimulates your immagination and the other captures your attention. it's just 2 different things.

[...]

Well said!

Originally posted by teakinator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have been playing MMOs since Everquest and I have noticed a disturbing trend.  Prior to EQ, those of us that loved the fantasy genre played roleplaying games with dice, paper, pencil and a group of friends.  The game was best enjoyed with a group, all contributing both through their charaacters skills but probably even more importantly through their wit and roleplaying.  The memories of those years of paper and pencil gaming will last me a lifetime and I think of them fondly.

Of course, as technology allowed our paper and pencil games to move to computer (i.e., Bards Tale, Ultima and Wizardry) and ultimately the internet (Everquest) the games at the beginning of the computer version of the fantasy genre were very similar to paper and pencil gaming as they placed a huge emphasis on grouping for EVERYTHING.  I have played every major MMO since EQ1 and while the game play and graphics are always improving, the PvE part of the games is not in my opinion.  Quests in EQ were hard and long.  EQOA had questlines that took weeks to complete and you needed a group for basically every part of the quest.  EQ2 came out and added a solo-element to the game.  While for me at first this was a welcomed change and allowed me to enjoy the genre without the time sink necessary to have a regular group, I didn’t realize until Guild Wars 2 how much I have missed grouping as a requirement and how much MMOs have changed, negatively in my opinion, since EQ1.

I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.  As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons.  Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter,  which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. 

So, to those that I have played with online (Dairith, Qen, Nicci, Windbear, Xerios, Windbear, and Maxpain) thank you for the memories from the EQ and WoW franchise.  As of an hour ago, I have decided that GW2 was the last MMO I will ever play.  I have deleted the game from the computer and actually pulled out my paper and pencil PATHFINDER books and am forming a local group of adults (have 4 so far) and we are going to have the interaction that we hoped could have been achieved from videogames.   So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players.  Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships.  I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons.  Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players.  So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper.

Teak Dharan

I hear where you're coming from and I sympathise with you, I'm from an older generation of gamers too. But I play LOTRO now and while it's perfectly easy to solo your way through that game, there is still a very active and chatty community attached to it - much more so than most of the other games I've looked at recently. So perhaps the answer to greater community doesn't lie in forcing people to group - after all, it's more difficult for older people like us to find the time these days. Perhaps you just need to provide a mature gaming environment with lots to do and talk about and lots of reasons for voluntary grouping/communication, and the rest will come. Just a thought...

Originally posted by teakinator

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have been playing MMOs since Everquest and I have noticed a disturbing trend.  Prior to EQ, those of us that loved the fantasy genre played roleplaying games with dice, paper, pencil and a group of friends.  The game was best enjoyed with a group, all contributing both through their charaacters skills but probably even more importantly through their wit and roleplaying.  The memories of those years of paper and pencil gaming will last me a lifetime and I think of them fondly.

Of course, as technology allowed our paper and pencil games to move to computer (i.e., Bards Tale, Ultima and Wizardry) and ultimately the internet (Everquest) the games at the beginning of the computer version of the fantasy genre were very similar to paper and pencil gaming as they placed a huge emphasis on grouping for EVERYTHING.  I have played every major MMO since EQ1 and while the game play and graphics are always improving, the PvE part of the games is not in my opinion.  Quests in EQ were hard and long.  EQOA had questlines that took weeks to complete and you needed a group for basically every part of the quest.  EQ2 came out and added a solo-element to the game.  While for me at first this was a welcomed change and allowed me to enjoy the genre without the time sink necessary to have a regular group, I didn’t realize until Guild Wars 2 how much I have missed grouping as a requirement and how much MMOs have changed, negatively in my opinion, since EQ1.

I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.  As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons.  Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter,  which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. 

So, to those that I have played with online (Dairith, Qen, Nicci, Windbear, Xerios, Windbear, and Maxpain) thank you for the memories from the EQ and WoW franchise.  As of an hour ago, I have decided that GW2 was the last MMO I will ever play.  I have deleted the game from the computer and actually pulled out my paper and pencil PATHFINDER books and am forming a local group of adults (have 4 so far) and we are going to have the interaction that we hoped could have been achieved from videogames.   So my departure from GW2 (and retirement from MMOs) should not be taken as a reflection on the gameplay, but instead a fundamental flaw in the MMO market--- the lost art of meaningful and longer term interaction with other players.  Prior to my retirement, I choose to play MMOs over Single-player RPG because I desired the company of other individuals to create shared memories, experiences, and friendships.  I have been playing GW2 since beta and found that there is very minimal chatting…. People are just too busy smashing buttons.  Quests are short and travel distances are short… it seems that others who are playing this game just don’t have the same need that I do for the connection with other players.  So farewell MMOs….. I will be slaying my dragons with 4 friends in the same room, a number of cold beers, plastic dice, metal miniatures and graph paper.

Teak Dharan

So, if you liked Everquest, and you like grouping and long quest lines with meaningful rewards, why are you not playing Vanguard? After F2P conversion, the population went up significantly. That's the game with the best community, helpful and willing to group up, mostly consisted of ex-everquest 1 players.

The only way to get a such close community as in pen and paper in a MMO is to have a small guild and turn off the general chat and see all other players as NPCs.

In P&P you usually are 4-6 guys in the same room and you cant beat that social aspect in a computer game.

But for GW2 we have put up a lan at a friends house and play a few friends there when we have time, I can only recommend you to do the same. While it still aint P&P since you are more limited in actions we do have the same group sense and it is a lot more fun than just sitting at our own place with Vent.

Some beers helps as well. :)

Originally posted by Loke666

The only way to get a such close community as in pen and paper in a MMO is to have a small guild and turn off the general chat and see all other players as NPCs.

Though even that doesn't work, since your interactions are limited and they'll break character.  Really, it is just ludicrous to be interested in MMOs for a PnP experience.  You'd do better with a game like Neverwinter Nights (the Bioware one), but even that had severe limits.  Honestly, I don't understand the OP at all.

As a fun grouping activity where you can make some online friends and play with pre-existing friends.  As you say, it can work quite well there.