Originally posted by Chrisbox
If your level 80 already Im sure you have plenty of time on your hands to "grind all of this gear".

Hahah, well said. 

And besides, the exact same thing is in Guild Wars 1. But the difference with Guild Wars and other MMO's are, you can do all other content without the gear (otherwise you would get; gear -> dungeon -> gear -> next dungeon -> etc. -> expansion -> everything done for nothing and starting over again. Basically the old raid model). 

Do people want everything for nothing these days? Because MMORPGs to me equals time consuming. It's part of the genre. They can't create  unique new content ALL THE TIME. Tell me about one game which has no repeating PvE content at end game. All PvE content at end game is repeating in every game, not only MMORPGs.

I'd rather spend 400 hrs (like the Hall of Monuments) on beautiful gear and be one of the few who can walk around with it rather then spending 30 hrs, see everyone with the same gear and wait for new content. And I understand, I don't have all the time in the world, so it will take me a while. And so far, GW2 has been amazing for me since their gear mechanic is different. I can still spend lots of time with my friends who are at a higher level then me only because GW2 is very cleverly designed in terms of gear and level.

A lot of apples and oranges in this thread, it seems to me.

In GW (1 or 2), you grind for cosmetic reasons -- you want the cool-looking gear.  This gear is not stat-enhanced.  So it is not, in itself, a gatekeeper to content as it is in virtually every single other themepark MMO.  It *does* look cooler (much cooler) than standard gear, and if you want that look you need to grind for it, but the content isn't locked away behind a gear check that *requires* you to grind gear in order to "advance" to be able to play the content.  That is what the "fanbois" were talking about, and it is very much the case with GW2, unlike most other themepark MMOs. There is grind here, but it is cosmetic grind.  Skinnerites don't like that, but it is what it is, and it's what GW1 had as well.

Whilst there is a gear grind for cosmetic reasons, I actually think the cultural gear you get from your main city is much better looking than anything that comes from the dungeons.

Also, keep in mind that GW2 is very heavily focused on PvE compared to GW1. In the first game you stayed and played largely for the PvP, but unless they plan to add a lot more scenarios and WvW, GW2 isn't going to have that same kind of hook.

I don't mind it taking time to get cosmetic rewards.  I am a bit concerned about the grind.  There's a difference.  Though I'm not sure if the 60+ figure is accurate just for the cosmetics.  Someone mentioned before on another thread that there is a standard stat version of dungeon armor and one with more stat extremes (though the same overall power, just say all +condition rather than +condition + power or whatever).  They said the latter was more expensive and had the 60+ figure for that.

If you need 60+ runs for cosmetics, I think that is too much.  Because it is going to get old, I'd think.  On the other hand, if they do content updates and tweaks to how things work, they could potentially spice up explorable dungeons with more options.  So it wouldn't be bad if they made things change.

In any case, it certainly isn't as bad as WoW.  Let's say a dungeon run takes 2 hours and the 60-run figure is accurate.  Then that's 120 hours for a full set.  Sounds like a lot, right?  If I did it in a month, that's 4 hours per day.  Eep!

Here's the thing though.  There's no time limit here.  It isn't like WoW or other gear progression games.  I don't need that cosmetic stuff to do other things.  I can spend 6 months getting it.  Which is a little more than 2 runs a week.  I could spend 2 YEARS getting it, which is less than one run per week.  I can do a lot of other things while I slowly build up a set at a pace I enjoy.

Sure, other people said such things about TOR and other games.  Stop and smell the roses, etc, etc.  But with GW2 there really is nothing that you can't do if you take your time about acquiring a cosmetic appearance.  So it is worth it to consider that you might enjoy it more if you went about it more slowly.  There's no rush.  New content isn't going to come out that requires you to look a certain way.

Originally posted by Beacker
I am so sick of the grind QQ. Everyone has to whine and cry about it. Get over it. Every freakin MMO is going to have one. One persons definition of a grind differs from the next. Stop playing MMO's if you don't like it. That is just how the genre is. Some games more than others. Go find something else productive to do in the game or in real life for that matter. Obviously a lot of you never played EQ1 or Lineage or other games. You have to work towards things in an MMO. People shouldn't just get max level and be handed everything I am sorry but that is just stupid. You want something put the time in. If not then don't. MMO's are a time sink investment period. Suck it up and play the game or quit MMO's altogether end of story.

I was being looked upon as a hater when I said this months ago to many friends who jumped hype and kept telling me how GW2 is going to be "grind free" and inovative.

Originally posted by littleXuro

Originally posted by Beacker
I am so sick of the grind QQ. Everyone has to whine and cry about it. Get over it. Every freakin MMO is going to have one. One persons definition of a grind differs from the next. Stop playing MMO's if you don't like it. That is just how the genre is. Some games more than others. Go find something else productive to do in the game or in real life for that matter. Obviously a lot of you never played EQ1 or Lineage or other games. You have to work towards things in an MMO. People shouldn't just get max level and be handed everything I am sorry but that is just stupid. You want something put the time in. If not then don't. MMO's are a time sink investment period. Suck it up and play the game or quit MMO's altogether end of story.

Originally posted by Weretigar

I don't understand you want to look super amazing with many different tyles and variety, but you dont want to work for any of it? Running dungeons 60+ times might get repetative but I ran dungeons on Swtor like 200 times on the same one just to farm rep for my companions. 

This is the price you pay for fashion and looking amazing in video games, and it always has been. anyone remember the Doppleganger card drop rate 00.01% it meant you could kill him over 1,000 times and never get his card which was the best card in the gme for agi fighters.

Also the dungeon gear stats only go up so high so the only real reason you would want thema ll is for braging rights, since you can only wear one at a time. You'll apreciate it more if you have to work for it. You already made to lvl lvl 80 so I know you have the time.

 

Like I stated before, there are people with fulltime jobs, if I can play only 2-3 hours a day, it means I either have to run a dungeon every day without doing anything else, or skip them entirely as I cannot obtain them at this rate.

This is a very flawed game design, having a few unique sets for hardcore players isn't bad, but having them only for them is very bad.

So you're trying to tell me you reached level 80 with that playing time in less than a week?

"Grinding" is a part of most MMO`s, always been.  

So you want to look fancy but don`twant to work for it? Then I just call you lazy right now and be done with it. And don`t come here with an excuse like "I have a household - I have a job - I have a life" because that is not going to work buddy.

Anyone remember Baron Rivendare and his Deathcharger? Everyone wanted it, so everyone farmed the hell our of Stratholme. Some were lucky to have it drop in a week or month, but some had to farm for MONTHS if not YEARS (I played Vanilla WoW and I had mine drop in Burning Crusade, just to give you an idea!). A thousand runs was nothing. 

And now you come here complaining because collecting your 50 sets of awesomeness takes too long? lol

When Diablo 3 came out Blizzard said that nobody ever will manage to beat inferno on hardcore. Yet it happened mere weeks after. Than people started leaving because there was only 60 levels.

On the end Blizzard solved it by adding 120 aditional levels that actually do nothing (almost) at all.

Why ?

Without grind on the end there is nothing to do int the game anymore.

The insane end game grind is not there for you (that complain about lack of time) Its there for player that lives in his moms basement and only plays for hundreds of hours a week.

He must be fed or he will go on rampage.

And when Anet feeds him , it gives him something that will really set him apart. And that is dungeon set.

For us normal players , you have easily attainable sets. And next to zero grind.

Originally posted by rdrpappy

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by Shodanas

Originally posted by Beacker
I am so sick of the grind QQ. Everyone has to whine and cry about it. Get over it. Every freakin MMO is going to have one. One persons definition of a grind differs from the next. Stop playing MMO's if you don't like it. That is just how the genre is. Some games more than others. Go find something else productive to do in the game or in real life for that matter. Obviously a lot of you never played EQ1 or Lineage or other games. You have to work towards things in an MMO. People shouldn't just get max level and be handed everything I am sorry but that is just stupid. You want something put the time in. If not then don't. MMO's are a time sink investment period. Suck it up and play the game or quit MMO's altogether end of story.

Your arguments are valid. However, i remember various posts with GW 2 fanboys jumping on people's throats when the grind issue came forward. "GW2 has no grind whatsoever", "GW2 does things completely different", "You won't have to do the same thing twice" etc..

 

No, that's not true.    The claims were:

 

1.   There is no mandatory-stats-gear grind-cycle to support ever (marginally) increasing dungeon difficulties in 'end game.' This remains true.

 

2.  Not even close to the way you're  implying.  It is not a linear-rush-to-end-on-a-fixed-path game.  It is not a fixed, static game where you complete an event (quest) and nothing changes, not even slightly.     The world changes and your parth through the world changes.   Somethings will be the same.  Some will be vastly different.   And you, the player, have a great deal of control over that.   Unlike fixed-path, linear games like SWTOR.

 

3.  That also wasn't said that way.   What was said that there will be different DEs, 100's per area, each that will be on a very long cycle so that when rolled up a second character you wouldn't be repeating 100% the same material like in SWTOR, where every class (Jedi, Consular, Imperial Agent, etc) has 100% the same character story with no meaningful deviations, and 80% of what you do over-all is identical across all characters in a faction.   Every Jedi Knight does 80% of the same story as every Consular, Trooper or Smuggler.

 

 Wrong, this is absolutely the same way, you can choose to look at it differently, but the story works out with as little deviation from person to person as SWTOR.

My favorite new excuse is "slow down and enjoy the game" it's all the rage now that objective players can clearly see that this game has the same play and feel as every other themepark.

Of course when it was SWTOR it was I hate the planet quests, I space bar through the content, I got to endgame in a week, this horrifies GW2 fanboys because then they have to come up with an excuse for GW2s endgame.

I really enjoy the game.......for what it is, another well made themepark mmorpg, but SWTOR has every bit as much content and was butchered for what you all clammer over at light speed.

Fair is fair, this game is good, but not better than anything else out there. Exept it's F2P at launch, that is the truth.

 

Sorry, I can't agree with your view. While personally I'd rather play SWTOR slowly (I enjoy questing and story-driven stuff), there is a similar design between SWTOR and EQ/WoW, which is endgame gear progression. There is a point to "rushing to endgame" in SWTOR because there's a different type of game waiting for you at level cap. While its true that content is there in the form of multiple story paths, endgame type players aren't simply interested in that.

GW2 by design does not favor a player rushing to level cap. A player level in GW2 is next to insignificant. I think it just serves as a label. There's no new type of gameplay that opens up to a player at level cap. Things may be a bit different, but they're still the things you do at level 1. A person who rushed to 80 presumably has only a portion of his map points discovered. If he's not interested in vistas, DEs, hearts, exploration then what the hell did he buy the game for?

Also, the people you described are not objective. It takes real objectivity to understand that the game is designed with a different approach to things. It's simply different, else we wouldn't be talking about "endgame stuff" and "rush to 80".

And for your last line. Meh. Talk about stating opinion as fact.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Wookieebob

Originally posted by Deolus
Is the bank big enough to hold all those equipment sets?

Cash Shop to the rescue!

Not neccesarily. Yesterday I exchanged silver for gems, 10 silver have 33 gems. I am level 30 now and I been blowing off a lot of money, anyone at 80 must be able to fill all the bankslots in a few hours tops.

But yes, if you want all armorsets in the game at the bank you need to upgrade it and you need to spend a long time grinding but that is hardly surprising, thry to get all armorsets in Wow...

But buying stuff for real money is a noob thing.

I'll explain my cash shop experience so far. I don't even call it a cash shop, it's the ingame gold shop. Here is a list of everything I have bought from the ingame gold shop so far:

• Deluxe Edition Upgrade (2000 gems)
• 4 Bank Upgrades (600 x 4 = 2400 gems)
• 2 Bag Slots (400 x 2 = 800 gems)

That's 5200 gems.

 

I have not bought any gems with real money, earned all the gold myself (only a little trading involved when the trade post was working) and my total hours played is about 120 hours.

 

Cash shop comments are void. 100% void. I have proved it.

That's roughly 0.54 dollars per hour. It is indeed believable and it will only get harder and harder since Arenanet artificially introduced a very low gem price for those who wanted to buy it with gold. As server life goes on, and more gem-sellers sacrifice themselves, the prices will eventually reach the high levels they should have in a regular free market.

Originally posted by sargey123
Yea why not grind for awsome looking armor ,its too hard.. mabe they should add all armors in ITEM SHOP so u will get everything easily and have no grid :? and then after u have EVERYTHING what will u do :P?  nothing. Thats why if u want something you are required to do SOMETHING.

You are equating time and effort with grinding, and the two aren't the same.

The concern would be that doing the same dungeon even on exploration 60 times would get boring.  At least, I think that's the underlying concern.  If doing it 60 times would not get boring and still stay fresh, then I don't think people would complain about how long it would take to do that.  This is certainly my only concern about it.

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Wookieebob

Originally posted by Deolus
Is the bank big enough to hold all those equipment sets?

Cash Shop to the rescue!

Not neccesarily. Yesterday I exchanged silver for gems, 10 silver have 33 gems. I am level 30 now and I been blowing off a lot of money, anyone at 80 must be able to fill all the bankslots in a few hours tops.

But yes, if you want all armorsets in the game at the bank you need to upgrade it and you need to spend a long time grinding but that is hardly surprising, thry to get all armorsets in Wow...

But buying stuff for real money is a noob thing.

I'll explain my cash shop experience so far. I don't even call it a cash shop, it's the ingame gold shop. Here is a list of everything I have bought from the ingame gold shop so far:

• Deluxe Edition Upgrade (2000 gems)
• 4 Bank Upgrades (600 x 4 = 2400 gems)
• 2 Bag Slots (400 x 2 = 800 gems)

That's 5200 gems.

 

I have not bought any gems with real money, earned all the gold myself (only a little trading involved when the trade post was working) and my total hours played is about 120 hours.

 

Cash shop comments are void. 100% void. I have proved it.

Im level 50 atm. Just how did you get all this gold?

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by sargey123
Yea why not grind for awsome looking armor ,its too hard.. mabe they should add all armors in ITEM SHOP so u will get everything easily and have no grid :? and then after u have EVERYTHING what will u do :P?  nothing. Thats why if u want something you are required to do SOMETHING.

You are equating time and effort with grinding, and the two aren't the same.

The concern would be that doing the same dungeon even on exploration 60 times would get boring.  At least, I think that's the underlying concern.  If doing it 60 times would not get boring and still stay fresh, then I don't think people would complain about how long it would take to do that.  This is certainly my only concern about it.

Of course thats the only problem here then... cause yes each time u do something that repetable it gets boring.. we are humans we want something new all the time... thats why we want more updates,more fixes,more new armors and we always wanna get what we dont have.. especiall if its new s; well yes doing that dungeon 60 times would be very boring and taking lots of time to complete... but to solve this u can always call some friends on skype and try to do 1 time at a day jus for fun and get rewarded for it.If all u gonna do is dungeon after dungeon after dungeon after dungeon non stop its gonna get really boring and tiring.. my advance dont overdo it,try take it slow and easily and try to do other things that make u fun ,exploring,spvp , heart quest ,DE and when u get a bit bored go and try the dungeon 1-2 times to get some fun so it wont bore u so much...

Originally posted by MikeJezZ

Originally posted by Vannor

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Wookieebob

Originally posted by Deolus
Is the bank big enough to hold all those equipment sets?

Cash Shop to the rescue!

Not neccesarily. Yesterday I exchanged silver for gems, 10 silver have 33 gems. I am level 30 now and I been blowing off a lot of money, anyone at 80 must be able to fill all the bankslots in a few hours tops.

But yes, if you want all armorsets in the game at the bank you need to upgrade it and you need to spend a long time grinding but that is hardly surprising, thry to get all armorsets in Wow...

But buying stuff for real money is a noob thing.

I'll explain my cash shop experience so far. I don't even call it a cash shop, it's the ingame gold shop. Here is a list of everything I have bought from the ingame gold shop so far:

• Deluxe Edition Upgrade (2000 gems)
• 4 Bank Upgrades (600 x 4 = 2400 gems)
• 2 Bag Slots (400 x 2 = 800 gems)

That's 5200 gems.

 

I have not bought any gems with real money, earned all the gold myself (only a little trading involved when the trade post was working) and my total hours played is about 120 hours.

 

Cash shop comments are void. 100% void. I have proved it.

Im level 50 atm. Just how did you get all this gold?

exploit,hacker or something lol D; ahem *thief* ahem ahem

Originally posted by littleXuro

To obtain 1 mere set of all available dungeon sets, you need to run explorable mode 60+ times atleast. Assuming you want to obtain several sets to have unique looks for all your characters, you have to do a few hundred runs, all lasting 2+ hours on average.

Last time I remember, ArenaNet said you would get a reward each run to prevent this kind of grind.

Words cannot describe how dissappointed I am, waited 4 years for it and again it's just another grind if I want to build unique characters.

 

Anyone else feels the same?

 hmmm lemme see, so you grinded your way to 80 (witch you realy didnt like because you hate grinding right?).

Why did you rush to the endgame then ?(witch is always a grind, no matter what game you look at)

I presume you secretly like grinding because you are doing it 80 lvls to get to the gear grind that is endgame...right?......that is YOUR kinda fun i presume? (you know, getting to the endgame ASAP just because then the REAL game starts right?)

So i cant realy tell what your problem is.......are you mad at Anet there isnt enough content for you?, are you mad at yourself for not taking your time to explore the game?, are you mad that the game didnt live up to your vision of this game?, do you want your ubers gear to drop from the first run? what?

Anyways, realy sad for you that the game didnt turn out the way YOU wanted it........but on the bright side.....i am enjoying myself still at lvl 19 today......so i guess they made one person sad (you) and they made one happy (me).

Maybe you need to look out for the next hypetrain?

ps: realy on topic......EVERY encounter with a boss up untill now gave me at least one item i could use to improve my character, so i guess the rewards are there after all.

@ the instigator of this thread.

How would you design an MMORPG with:

1. Sufficient PVE endgame content to keep you busy until the next expansion?

2. Goals to strive for (gear sets)?

3. Without any form of grinding involved?

Exactly, that's impossible, especially since the hard core gamers will be lvl 80 within a week regardless of how difficult a game is.

So stop whining fgs and go enjoy yourself, else go back to playing Call of Duty on your Xbox. I find GW2 the best MMORPG that has been released since a long long time.

Originally posted by rogiel

@ the instigator of this thread.

How would you design an MMORPG with:

1. Sufficient PVE endgame content to keep you busy until the next expansion?

2. Goals to strive for (gear sets)?

3. Without any form of grinding involved?

Exactly, that's impossible, especially since the hard core gamers will be lvl 80 within a week regardless of how difficult a game is.

So stop whining fgs and go enjoy yourself, else go back to playing Call of Duty on your Xbox. I find GW2 the best MMORPG that has been released since a long long time.

ELO-based PvE competitions where the goal to strive for is as high ELO as possible.

this thread seem like DeJa Vu

lets go back a few months into prebeta threads.

I remember people saying there is no grind.

lots of the arguments I am reading in this thread, defending the grind, could also apply to the defense of the idea of having Raid Dungeons in the game, like many suggested.

the argument against Raid Dungeons has been the grind, yet it seem to be the defense here...

maybe that should get its own thread. sorry OP.