Originally posted by Wolfenpride

 

Considering all you're doing is interacting with an NPC in this scenario, it's not all that different than vendoring crap in a single player game. The price you set and sell is inevitably the same price or slightly lower as everyone elses.

And if you decide you don't like that idea, there are plenty of single player games with fluctuating markets/prices.

If you were trading/haggling in person with the player, i'd agree with your point, that's an experience you can't really get in single player games. Short of friends/guildmates gifting stuff though, actual trading like E. Common tunnels and such is largely dead.

Of course it does .. have you ever bid snipe against another human? Have you ever find a great deal on the AH? It feels completely differently if the market is regulated by equations.

AH *is* haggling with other people .. just only in numbers without other communications.

Plus, you can't do RMAH in a single player game.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Exactly why we won't ever see the group oriented MMO again, the majority of the market thinks like this.

The rest of us are firmly in the niche and no major Dev house will ever be able to cater to that, the economics just don't make sense.

 

This is exactly the problem today.  The sense of entitlement on the people  with this mindset is appauling.   It is the instant gratification crowd who hide behind their real life time constraint excuse rather than face the facts that they want it all NOW!

 

What? Like Kyleran said, biggest devs make games for the biggest market niche - its business. It is you who is acting entitled and demanding them to make a game for you.

Absolutely. It is silly to "require" how players play their games. They are consumers ... using ENTERTAINMENT products. Of course the devs should make it convenient and assessible.

No one has to use an entertainment product. It is not like work, or necessities of life.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Exactly why we won't ever see the group oriented MMO again, the majority of the market thinks like this.

The rest of us are firmly in the niche and no major Dev house will ever be able to cater to that, the economics just don't make sense.

 

This is exactly the problem today.  The sense of entitlement on the people  with this mindset is appauling.   It is the instant gratification crowd who hide behind their real life time constraint excuse rather than face the facts that they want it all NOW!

 

What? Like Kyleran said, biggest devs make games for the biggest market niche - its business. It is you who is acting entitled and demanding them to make a game for you.

Absolutely. It is silly to "require" how players play their games. They are consumers ... using ENTERTAINMENT products. Of course the devs should make it convenient and assessible.

No one has to use an entertainment product. It is not like work, or necessities of life.

Aahhh, can I have some of that crack that you are smoking. Every gameRequires you to play by some set of rules, constraints, physics etc. It is how they are designed. If you break these rules or exploit them there are often consequences. This is for the benefi of the wider community. The problem is that the community seems to be mainly made up of people who want instant gratification all of the time and so this is how the games are made, for the lowest common denominator. If this is what the masses want and will pay for this is what the devs will spoon feed them. For me I'll stick to something a little more cerebral, like playing build-a-beetle with my four year old. 

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by slowpoke68

The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server.  Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together.  We actually chatted and socialized while doing it.  No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on.  People actually went out of their way to group.  As a result you actually saw a community forming.

Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back,

Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again?  Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level.  No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.

 

 

Regarding your first paragraph...  You've described a piece of what made early MMORPGs great. They were populated by people who enjoyed logging in to a virtual world, hanging out with other people to do "whatever". They treated it like a hobby, or a pastime, not a "second job", not an "obligation" like some people describe it these days. They didn't treat it like some race to an arbitrary, self-imposed finish line.

Like yourself, people would form parties and go out to kill mobs for a while, talking, joking around, in many cases forming unexpected friendships that could last for years - and having fun along the way. Hours could go by in what seemed like minutes and in many cases, folks were having so much fun that it was a bummer when it inevitably had to end. The killing and xp'ing became almost secondary, taking a backseat to the fun of hanging out and interacting with other players who, like yourself, weren't only concerned with "their DPS/hr", "how efficient the group was" or "how many levels they could get before they logged out". It was about the adventure and the experience, not the "payoff".

It was about the experience of being in a virtual world, not racing through and "beating it".

In Asheron's Call 2, while I played it (and from what I've seen in AC1 as well), groups would get together to go run missions, or to go through Vaults. They may have done those missions or vaults dozens of times before, and there was absolutely nothing of great value they would get at the end of it. But that didn't matter, because that's not why they were there. They were there for the fun of, again, hanging out in a group and just having fun doing whatever they were doing. They weren't concerned with whether or not they got a rare drop, or how optimally the group was configured. There didn't have to be "something in it for them" for people to help someone else out. They did it because it was fun.

When I see someone these days saying "oh people only grouped because they had to, and because there were so few other MMOs on the market", or ""people who enjoy long grinds to end-game are masochists without jobs who live in their parents basement", I see someone who simply doesn't get it and will only judge things on their own limited (and often closed-minded and incomplete) understanding of it.

People absolutely had lives, and jobs and families and even ran their own businesses back then. What was different - and this is the key part many fail (or refuse) to understand these days - is that they played for entirely different reasons than people play today. "Getting to level cap quickly" is expected, even demanded these days. Back then, "level cap" was some abstract, far-off concept; somewhere they'd get to eventually. What was more important to them was having fun with whatever they were doing "right now". If someone back then only had an hour to play, they didn't feel like their time was wasted if "they didn't gain a level" or "get a drop" or whatever. They logged in, did whatever they found enjoyable for that hour, and then logged out.

As for your last bit... We'll see it again, but not from a major developer. They're not interested in group-centric MMOs because that's not where the big money is. And the big money is what they're ultimately interested in. The player experience is driven by bean counters doing "market research". It's not decided by asking "what would provide the best all-around gaming experience for the playerbase we're targeting, even if market research shows it's not the most profitable way to go?".

If you want games that are designed around the player experience and not the bottom line - kinda like how the 1st and 2nd Gen MMOs were, you're gonna have to look to indie developers, or independently owned companies; the kind of companies led by people who still have the passion for creating an awesome game experience that drove the creation of all those original MMOs that got the genre started to begin with.

 

 Excellent synopsis.  I cuncur collectively.  To the OP, & other's looking for an experience in a virtual world with player driven economy, opvp, pve, player nations, political power,   ( with a emphasis on group)  & a dose of cerebral style of gameplay, take a look at Pathfinder Online.   This game will not cater to the WOW crowd & it's a design philosphy experience most 1st generation MMO gamers are seeking.   Read up on the thier blog and see for yourself. 

https://goblinworks.com/blog/

Both nice posts. Well thought out and articulated. Sadly unless the old school MMOers reach critical mass and get heard, I doubt anybody will want to go back to the bad old days of games that were more about the journey than the end game. Games where kicking seven shades of sh*t out of Sergeant Slate was more fun than camping Sol A. Trading goods in Commonlands Tunnel was the closest that you'd ever get über loot at lvl 12 and you didn't mind being lvl 12. Trains from hell, like pulling the whole of Kithicor whilst camping Ghoulbane, and dumping 50+ mobs on some poor sap camping at the Zone Line. And the presence of God Like GMs who could take your character to darkened rooms to interrogate you about infractions of rules, then ban your ass for a week for being rude to them. 

Today everyone is in a hurry to reach the level cap and get to end-game content, missing all oft the fun stuff along the way, stuff that meant something because it was hard. So much of my time in EQ1 I still remember, sadly I cannot say that about any other MMO that I have played. 

Maybe we should try and get some crowd source funding for an old style MMO!

90% of average MMO design time goes into pre-end game. So getting there fast means getting to where there is the least content fast. This problem has been underlined in modern exMMO's where leveling is so much faster and players seem to expect a new games worth of extra content to be added every few months.

I would not say it is impossible that we will see a group orientated AAA title again, but we have been headed in the opposite direction for years.

Originally posted by Drakxii

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Tibernicus

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by sookster54

If you want to solo in an MMO, a single player RPG is better suited for you.

Not really.

Few solo RPGs has a auction house to trade. Few solo RPGs has as many classes and combat mechanics as MMOs. Wrong. Few solo RPGs have as much quest content as MMOs. Wrong.

 

Why do you invade every thread about MMOs screaming that they should all be like mobas?

Which MOBAs have an auction house and quests?

Just wondering.  Why do you want an auction house in your game?

To start, I didn't say MMOs should have an auction house, just questioning what MOBAs have auction houses and quests to understand why Tibernicus asked such a seemingly strange question.

But to answer your question: I don't, and I never said I did.

Regional markets? Sure.

Player owned shops, Sure.

Auction houses? Not my thing.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by slowpoke68

The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server.  Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together.  We actually chatted and socialized while doing it.  No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on.  People actually went out of their way to group.  As a result you actually saw a community forming.

Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back,

Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again?  Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level.  No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.

World of darkness online.... 

I do agree, the market have room for a good group oriented game focused on social playing. I dont think we will see any new MMOs exactly like the old classics though but some games with a lot more social interaction will show up.

Seems like CCP will be first out, their social mechanics with player run cities and political backstabbing might take the genre into a new direction.

I really hope you're right.  If anyone can do it right, CCP can.  

Originally posted by Tibernicus

 

Originally posted by maji
MMORPGs are for the masses. The masses don't want to be forced to look for other people to team up with.

You say that, but games like SWTOR, Rift, AoC, are all horrible failures mainly BECAUSE they're solo oriented.

That's not even remotely true.

Just because two thing occur together doesn't mean one caused the other.

Originally posted by Opapanax
It all began when the genre and players started to take the RP out of MMO-RP-G...

You can't force people to RP. And the RP community is tiny.

Originally posted by teotius
I believe that in EQ1 something like that happened more often since it was the "new" thing currently. People have experienced that stuff so many times before that i think most of them ignores that part completely and rushes for the end-game.

You said it 100% correct. I went back to retry it. I had to ignore the horrid graphics. All eq1 is, is a grind. It seems so much better in memory. For one at the time there was no competition. It was new idea and concept as eq1 was my first mmo. It blew me away. However its like my first car was a mustang 5.0 I loved that car my friends at school would hype it so much etc etc. Now I drive a Audi A8. There is no way I would ever go back to that mustang lol. Memories can be distorted and in most cases they always are. EQ1 is not a good game by today's standards at all. The issue is we have so many choices and they all try to copy the same formula for success and in oing so we keep getting the same games with a different skin. Except for GW2 that feels some what different as did TSW.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Tibernicus

 

Originally posted by maji
MMORPGs are for the masses. The masses don't want to be forced to look for other people to team up with.

You say that, but games like SWTOR, Rift, AoC, are all horrible failures mainly BECAUSE they're solo oriented.

That's not even remotely true.

Just because two thing occur together doesn't mean one caused the other.

I don't like it but Rift is hardly a fail. Still not F2P and the dev team is HUGE for Rift. They pump out Massive amounts of content and there is a full ex pack on the way. In fact in recent memory I cant think of any MMO to be as successful

.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Opapanax
It all began when the genre and players started to take the RP out of MMO-RP-G...

You can't force people to RP. And the RP community is tiny.

I love people who don't understand that just because the letters appear in the name doesn't mean they appear in the game.

"MMORPGs are for the masses. The masses don't want to be forced to look for other people to team up with."

It's true they don't want all the negative aspects of grouping but that doesn't change the fact that social == sticky so it is still in the interests of games to *try* and make them more grouping-friendly if they can figure out a way of doing it.

Originally posted by FelixMajor
I think Everquest Next is trying to go back to it's roots of community based gameplay and group play.

If so then it will fail.