Originally posted by gestalt11

Its a trick.  Get an axe.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxFOVtr9fbk

yeah bro is a trick ther are from south koreans and ther hungry I been playing NCSOFT games since guild wars 1 the first game launch and they havent change I will say Avoid Monthly Fee Games they want you to play them and are the Most grindy Games you will ever play why becouse they want you to play them, thats is smart comparing EA to NCSOFT well NCSOFT will give you more content then EA and EA will Give you less content how they make money NCSOFT makes more then EA and EA just Lost allot of Money With Star Wars The Old Republic trying to play with the big boys. Dont Be Suprice the Secret World Fallows this becouse they havent deveop a MMO Engine yet into EA Makes ther own MMO engine they will profit from MMO's and went Skyrim Makes ther MMO is possible they can be like Guild Wars 2 Or Good Or Bad Depends how the engine was develop and from the signs of me playing Elder Scrolls I think onlest they take ther time making the game they will be alright but thats like a 1/10 to suceed I am crossing my fingers on that one.

Box sales pay for the development cost, payed by NCSoft, so they claim most of the money from there.

Depending on the flow of cash, extra money may be giving for future content.

Cash Shop pays for future updates. Other depend on subs. And some, use both, like WOW. No trick or anything, just really simple.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

 

No more then 'we need a cash shop' is. Both are simply ways to monetise a service.

If a sub is not needed then neither is a cash shop.

 

If you are arguing for a B2P game with no further means of monetising or making a profit past the intial sale then your OP starts to make more sense.

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

 

Of course it is a risk. Every game is a risk, cash shop or sub.

Look at all the cash shop shut downs and failings we are seeing. The track record is growing worse almost daily.

I feel the only way to minimise the risk for yourself, whatever rev model, is to make a good game.

I feel ANet believe this as well with GW2

 

I agree every MMO is a risk.  But it is like as if Anet is doubling that risk..or maybe it isn't a risk at all and Anet know something that other companies don't.?

I really feel stupid for paying monthly fees for lesser content and quality in comparison to GW2 for all these years.

I know that cash shop too faciliates and provides for development of future content but monthly fee is something you 'have' to pay to get access to the game on the other hand 'cash shop' is up to the will of cutomers. So if a company makes a very good and fun MMO like GW2 they would milk us through and through but nope not ANET.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

 

No more then 'we need a cash shop' is. Both are simply ways to monetise a service.

If a sub is not needed then neither is a cash shop.

 

If you are arguing for a B2P game with no further means of monetising or making a profit past the intial sale then your OP starts to make more sense.

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

 

Of course it is a risk. Every game is a risk, cash shop or sub.

Look at all the cash shop shut downs and failings we are seeing. The track record is growing worse almost daily.

I feel the only way to minimise the risk for yourself, whatever rev model, is to make a good game.

I feel ANet believe this as well with GW2

 

I agree every MMO is a risk.  But it is like as if Anet is doubling that risk..or maybe it isn't a risk at all and Anet know something that other companies don't.?

I really feel stupid for paying monthly fees for lesser content and quality in comparison to GW2 for all these years.

I know that cash shop too faciliates and provides for development of future content but monthly fee is something you 'have' to pay to get access to the game on the other hand 'cash shop' is up to the will of cutomers. So if a company makes a very good and fun MMO like GW2 they would milk us through and through but nope not ANET.

I think ther secret is that they where the ones that sold gold and now they have a cash shop that has Gems Converted To Gold WTF is like buying Game Currency With Real Life Currency I think they got busted haha :) Plus ArenaNet [Boss] is NCSOFT and ther from South Korea they all about Business ArenaNets is For Western Gamers that dont spend hours and hours and hours on grinding ther brains off they play like World Of Warcraft MMO game thats how ArenaNet is Love ther company is on America I believe. Is All About The Business and partnership fellows.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Anet makes a MMO, AAA in quality. Jam packed with content. All the features that one would expect from a themepark MMOS and more. And yet it is not asking customers 15 bucks a month for it? what is it that Anet knows and rest don't? 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

I keep thinking about it and i just can not explain this. If Anet can do it (they are surely not going bankrupt now are they)...so why does other companies need monthly fee for? and for what i have been paying 15 bucks a month for last 10 years? and where did all that money of you and me go? was it really used in the development of those games?

So many questions. Please tel me i am not the only one who thinks about this and feels a little stupid for spending all that money for monthly access to MMOS. Were we just conditioned into thinking all these years that monthly fee is 'necessary' for long life of a MMO? were we being fooled?

p.s English isn't my first language so bear with me ;)

YES!!!!  ... the "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS" is a greedy and lame excuse used by publishers to cash players.... specially companies that dont know how to run an mmo properly (everything sub based after WoW, and nowadays even WoW is included, but he got the crown already since 2004 so...)

like i said in other post somewhere, you dont need a greedy subscription excuse to maintain a GOOD mmo alive and kicking... you just need the right company behind it. ARENANET is giving that vision to the blind.

I do think about it a lot and feel stupid for paying monthly subs when i already payed full price for a box and am willing to pay for expansion and DECENT cash shop. Again, YES, we have been conditioned into thinking all these years that monthly fees are necessary for long life of a MMO.... we were fooled and fooled... and fooled.......and fooled.

I respect people's decision if they want to pay subs, that doesnt mean i respect the subscription model and cow milking scam from greedy companies.

B2P for life.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

 

No more then 'we need a cash shop' is. Both are simply ways to monetise a service.

If a sub is not needed then neither is a cash shop.

 

If you are arguing for a B2P game with no further means of monetising or making a profit past the intial sale then your OP starts to make more sense.

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

 

Of course it is a risk. Every game is a risk, cash shop or sub.

Look at all the cash shop shut downs and failings we are seeing. The track record is growing worse almost daily.

I feel the only way to minimise the risk for yourself, whatever rev model, is to make a good game.

I feel ANet believe this as well with GW2

I agree every MMO is a risk.  But it is like as if Anet is doubling that risk..or maybe it isn't a risk at all and Anet know something that other companies don't.?

The simple truth is that a good game that appeals will succeed.

The revenue model is actually irrelevant to this.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

 

No more then 'we need a cash shop' is. Both are simply ways to monetise a service.

If a sub is not needed then neither is a cash shop.

 

If you are arguing for a B2P game with no further means of monetising or making a profit past the intial sale then your OP starts to make more sense.

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

 

Of course it is a risk. Every game is a risk, cash shop or sub.

Look at all the cash shop shut downs and failings we are seeing. The track record is growing worse almost daily.

I feel the only way to minimise the risk for yourself, whatever rev model, is to make a good game.

I feel ANet believe this as well with GW2

I agree every MMO is a risk.  But it is like as if Anet is doubling that risk..or maybe it isn't a risk at all and Anet know something that other companies don't.?

 

The simple truth is that a good game that appeals will succeed.

The revenue model is actually irrelevant to this.

 

I agree making good game is first thing to do otherwise what payment model you use means a little... but what do you really think about all the money that you paid fin monthly fee for years? you really think it was really needed to keep servers up and developing future content? not to mention revenues of cash shops on top that + money from expansions? i don't know but for me there is new level of admiration for Anet now.

EXTREMELY simple..... Who ever has the money makes the rules. As a former business owner for many years I can tell you this. If one has a lemonade stand, and makes $10.00 a week, but it costs $15.00 to operate..... Well, the end result is obvious.

Game till you bleed....

P.S. My son of course was one of the first in line to get this game. I have watched him over the years buy every new online game and basically stop play after a month or two. I have tryed to tell him, all these games are just like each other. There is nothing new under the sun, and if it is ever put out there, I will be so there.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Warjin

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Anet makes a MMO, AAA in quality. Jam packed with content. All the features that one would expect from a themepark MMOS and more. And yet it is not asking customers 15 bucks a month for it? what is it that Anet knows and rest don't? 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

I keep thinking about it and i just can not explain this. If Anet can do it (they are surely not going bankrupt now are they)...so why does other companies need monthly fee for? and for what i have been paying 15 bucks a month for last 10 years? and where did all that money of you and me go? was it really used in the development of those games?

So many questions. Please tel me i am not the only one who thinks about this and feels a little stupid for spending all that money for monthly access to MMOS. Were we just conditioned into thinking all these years that monthly fee is 'necessary' for long life of a MMO? were we being fooled?

p.s English isn't my first language so bear with me ;)

Anet is making loot from there shop, not only that they will most likly add expacs every 6-8 months for $50 a pop to pretty much be on par with a monthly sub game.

That is what i am surprised about,. other MMOS charge monthly fee + cash shops.

So is Anet merely being nice? generous? honest? doesn't like more money? because after all its business and NCSOFT has a reputation of being 'profit oriented' maybe not to the extent of EA..but still what suits in these companies don't like more money?

So is Anet sitting on some 'board room statistical secret' which it is not sharing with other companies? or other companies already knew it and they just kept fooling us for all these years?

Every cash shop do not necessarely look the same and  generate the same amount of income. 

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

Was "15 bucks a month is needed for development and maintenance of MMOS"   merely an excuse?

 

No more then 'we need a cash shop' is. Both are simply ways to monetise a service.

If a sub is not needed then neither is a cash shop.

 

If you are arguing for a B2P game with no further means of monetising or making a profit past the intial sale then your OP starts to make more sense.

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

 

Of course it is a risk. Every game is a risk, cash shop or sub.

Look at all the cash shop shut downs and failings we are seeing. The track record is growing worse almost daily.

I feel the only way to minimise the risk for yourself, whatever rev model, is to make a good game.

I feel ANet believe this as well with GW2

I agree every MMO is a risk.  But it is like as if Anet is doubling that risk..or maybe it isn't a risk at all and Anet know something that other companies don't.?

 

The simple truth is that a good game that appeals will succeed.

The revenue model is actually irrelevant to this.

 

I agree making good game is first thing to do otherwise what payment model you use means a little... but what do you really think about all the money that you paid fin monthly fee for years? you really think it was really needed to keep servers up and developing future content? not to mention revenues of cash shops on top that + money from expansions? i don't know but for me there is new level of admiration for Anet now.

I think it was needed in order to generate a profit for the company, excatly the same way a cash shop is needed.

Like I keep saying, they are different approaches to exactly the same thing, to generate profit on an ongoing basis. If one is 'greedy' then so is the other.

You simply cannot defend a cash shop while attacking a sub in terms of profit generation. Both do the same job.

What do I really think about a monthly fee? I honestly think that over the years that £2.50 a week has delivered me hundreds of hours of entertainment for an incredibly cheap price. I consider it a transparent and honest model that places all honest players on an even field. I consider it the very best model in terms of influencing core game design.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

 

I agree making good game is first thing to do otherwise what payment model you use means a little... but what do you really think about l althe money that you paid fin monthly fee for years? you really think it was really needed to keep servers up and developing future content? not to mention revenues of cash shops on top that + money from expansions? i don't know but for me there is new level of admiration for Anet now.

Well, yeah. Go talk to Trion and ask them where all those updates that people praise came from?

Yes, companies like Blizz leave their costumers with empty hands, but that's a dev thing, not business model thing.

Originally posted by Vesavius

 

I think it was needed in order to generate a profit for the company, excatly the same way a cash shop is needed.

Like I keep saying, they are different approaches to exactly the same thing, to generate profit on an ongoing basis. If one is 'greedy' then so is the other.

You simply cannot defend a cash shop while attacking a sub in terms of profit generation. Both do the same job.

 

What do I really think about a monthly fee? I honestly think that over the years that £2.50 a week has delivered me hundreds of hours of entertainment for an incredibly cheap price. I consider it a transparent and honest model that places all honest players on an even field. I consider it the very best model in terms of influencing core game design.

I am actually not defending one over the other, that would be hard to do when MMOS have been using cash shop + monthly fee for quite some time now ;)

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Well, yeah. Go talk to Trion and ask them where all those updates that people praise came from?

Yes, companies like Blizz leave their costumers with empty hands, but that's a dev thing, not business model thing.

 

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

 

I agree making good game is first thing to do otherwise what payment model you use means a little... but what do you really think about l althe money that you paid fin monthly fee for years? you really think it was really needed to keep servers up and developing future content? not to mention revenues of cash shops on top that + money from expansions? i don't know but for me there is new level of admiration for Anet now.

Well, yeah. Go talk to Trion and ask them where all those updates that people praise came from?

Yes, companies like Blizz leave their costumers with empty hands, but that's a dev thing, not business model thing.

 

Trion is subs done right IMO.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

 

What i know or have been told all these years is that MMO companies need continuous stream of money to keep servers on and develop furutre content. So i am just wondering if Anet is taking a risk here? or it has always been like this and we were just taken for a ride by other MMO companies.

if an mmo needs continuous streams of money to keep servers on and develop future content, why do they need a 300 people team? After the game is launched, keep a small team focused on servers and another small team focused on new content. Box + Expansion makes a lot of money and will be enough to pay for these people's jobs. Even with the full team they still can keep the game going up and kicking and ANET have shown that with GW1 and is doing it again with GW2.

The right people making the game the right way dont need a sub.

Even if it sounds a bit contradictory to my own comments, i can agree with Vesavius that the model is irrelevant if the game is well done. So far nothing after WoW's launch is worth a sub so..... yeah.... we gotta keep that in mind when buying an mmo.

@Visavius

I think it was needed in order to generate a profit for the company, excatly the same way a cash shop is needed.

Ok my Engish isn't that good so maybe i am having hard time to explain myself but what i am trying to say is that yes both cash shop and monthly fee is needed to generate profit but monthly fee is something you 'have' to pay and cash shop is not must or necessary in terms of GW2. So you can play a MMO by ignoring cash shop but you can't do the same when it comes to monthly fee. So there is a big difference in both ways to increase profit.

That is why i wonder if companies really need all that fixed amount of money they know customers 'will' pay to access the game compared to cash shop like GW2 which players may or may not use. 

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by Vesavius

 

 

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Well, yeah. Go talk to Trion and ask them where all those updates that people praise came from?

Yes, companies like Blizz leave their costumers with empty hands, but that's a dev thing, not business model thing.

 

And what if Anet does the same and even better in terms of updates with no monthly fee and minimlastic cash shop? which is not even 'necessary' for players to use in order to play the game? what then? GW2 already dwarfs Rift in content and world size at release.

GW2 is bigger than Rift when they released, yes, but we're talking about speed and size of content updates. We don't know how fast Arena Net will deliever. Until then, we can only assume.

Lots of F2P games use cash shops and don't see any of updates. And honestly, i don't think the pure sucess of a game means everything. WOW makes tons of money and Blizz is huge, but they don't update because they're lazy and don't care. If they wanted, they'd peobably roll out huge content every month.

Like i said, it's a company thing aswell.

Originally posted by evilastro

 

The cash shop for GW1 was very minimal compared to GW2 and it has lasted 7 years now. They dont need the cash shop to survive, it is just icing on the cake for them. Making extra cash off things that dont impact on the game and wont piss players off.

GW2 is not F2P, people need to get over that, it is B2P like every single console game and non subscription game out there. Not having a subscription does not mean free. Instead the content updates will primarily come with paid expansions. Just like in GW1. Its a good model, and keeps the companies honest about what they are spending their time on.

I have paid subscriptions for games where the amount of content delivered in 6-12 months did not even come close to that of an expansion for GW1. ArenaNet knows they can deliver, so they dont need to get that monthly sub to leech of the loyal players.

Havent had any reason to fork out any cash on the cash-shop yet by the way. The amount of bag room and bank room has been sufficient even while crafting two professions (just upgrade your bags as soon as you can). Only thing I can see myself buying is extra character slots when I get my 5th character to 80. 

I never played guild Wars 1, only Guild Wars 2 and I am stunned with the effort that Arena Net made with the world and the game.

How is the investment cost for GW2 compared to GW1?

Perhaps they have sold enough boxes now to cover the initial investment, they even had to close the webshop.

(I tried to google for an article I read a few days ago, perhaps more than a week, that described the risk I am trying to talk about concerning that ArenaNet needs an income to continue develop the game.)

I expect, that with subscription, plus revenue form expansions, plus the nowdays usual cosmetic cash-shop you make more profit, than without subscription. Even if there should be more box-sales if B2P, because this attracts more players, than a P2P game. I also expect, that a lot of players will buy gems worth a 1 month subscription in the cashshop for bags, bank and charslots and such stuff. 

So, looking to the first 2-3 month, the revenue of GW2 compared to the revenue of a P2P game should be at least equal.

The subscription starts to shine after a few months. But this is also the timeframe, where all these game-hoppers quit the game. The question is, what is more revenue: the fewer sustained subscribers of a P2P game after 3 months, or the obviously more players staying in a B2P game and spending a bit money in the cash-shop?

A B2P game should also launch expansions with a higher frequency than a P2P game, in order to compensate partially for the missing subscription fee. So I expect expansions rather every 6-9 months than the usual 12-18 months. This is a challenging schedule and should just be profitable, if the overall software architecture is optimized about expansions and adding new content. One key-factor here could be dynamic events. Of course we expect new races, weapons, items and more zones in an expansion. But ArenaNet could also bring a lot of new content by just expanding existing DEs additionally. More branches and additional stages means a new experience and more complexitiy and more virtual world with every expansion in the existing world. This is not really doable in a quest-based world without downscaling. And it should be a bit cheaper, than brand new continents from scratch. I expect expansions wiill be a mix of new zones and enriched existing zones. And this should be overall cheaper and faster.

So i guess, the revenue of GW2 is not so bad compared to any P2P game (except WoW, which is special). However, it seems ArenaNet is very careful with ongoing datacenter costs. They stopped selling the game online. It would have been easy to have better SLAs with the datacenter-provider. This enables you to launch servers on an hourly basis if needed. Unfortunately such SLAs are expensive, so they dont have them. It would also be easy to separate the infrastructure for forums and stuff from the game-servers, in order to avoid overload from one to the other. But again they dont have that, because this cost more money. It seems, ArenaNet decided for a very cost-effective but rather unflexible datacenter-infrastructure. Thats one tribute to the limited and rather smaller and more unpredictable revenue-stream in future. 

However, i am very convinced, that after years of GW1, they have a very solid financial plan, how to stay in profitable business with this game for at least 5 years and more.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

And what if Anet does the same and even better in terms of updates with no monthly fee and minimlastic cash shop? which is not even 'necessary' for players to use in order to play the game? what then? GW2 already dwarfs Rift in content and world size at release.

Sub fee pays for a lot of content updates in most games. TSW is aiming for monthly content updates and Trion has bi-monthly. Afaik you need to purchase the individual content updates in GW2. In the end, the result is the same. They money to pay the programmers has to come from somewhere.