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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will we ever see a non-solo oriented mmo again?

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247 posts found
  Mushii77

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 8

8/31/12 1:13:56 AM#81

I think what the OP  needs to remember wa that social networking was very limited at the time of EQ1 and part of the enjoyment of EQ1 was the social side of it. There was no Farcebook or Twatter, IM was in its infancy and MMOs did not support Teamspeak or similar so your EQ1 world was your social networking. This social aspect was designed into the game and hence people in and out of groups 'chatted'. Some evenings I would log on and do nothing but chat to friends, update my trader in Bazaar and throw out the odd buff to a Newbie (which was not a derogatory term at the time, but Llama certainly was).

Anyway the whole interwebs has moved on since EQ1, we have anti-social networking sites (full of chavs and liars bragging at their latest conquest or acquisition) we have voice comms built into games, to listen to annoying 12 year olds whining about not owning the latest uber-leet Sword of Dobber or similar and then we have Blizzard. The company who destroyed the MMO genre.

EQ1 generally pandered to the highest commo denominator, forcing grinding, hell levels, slogs, quests that neeed 48 hour camps and TRAINS!! Levelling in EQ1 was hard and time consuming, sitting grinding one camp for four hours, required coordination between team members and hell, it was boring if you did not chat, specially night after night.

Along came Blizzard with WoW and gave the world EZ mode MMO - WoW. Millions flocked to it, because you didnt have to try to become L337, it was easy, and everyone could own the Sword of Dobber, and the armour of Shell Suit, and the Helmet of Chavishness, and the Boots of Nike, and the iPad spell and all of the other cr@p. And because it was easy, you didnt really need anyone elses assistance (much) and so nobody spoke anymore. And all the other wannabe MMO's and their investors flocked to the WoW model for their MMO and so now what we have is an MMO world akin to the wold of fast food, Maccie D's, the Colonel, Burglar King etc, where everything is the same instant grill cooked deep fried garbage, just with a different name. The masses dont want a bistro and restaurant anymore, where you have to wait whilst somebody crafts your food, they want Soylent Green and instantly.

I mourn the loss of my EQ1 days, but I understand things have moved on (I wont say progressed because I dont believe that they have). Vanguard could have been the new EQ1 but sadly failed to deliver and so we we are forever condemened to a world of greasy burger mmos, where nobody speaks to their group as they are too busy texting, skyping, downloading pirate movies, eating junk food and watching pr0n whilst doing a half assed job at (paper) tanking with their Wizard who now has a robe with 3 bazillion HP.

RIP Social Grouping in MMOs

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/31/12 3:50:55 AM#82
There are still a ton of people out there that like grouping and socializing. Millions. And no AAA game is catering to them. If any publisher wakes up and realizes this, they're sitting on a gold mine. Making more WoW clones isn't where the money is, catering to the hardcore, who have nowhere else to go, is what they should be doing.
  jpnz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3565

8/31/12 4:47:22 AM#83
Originally posted by Tibernicus
There are still a ton of people out there that like grouping and socializing. Millions. And no AAA game is catering to them. If any publisher wakes up and realizes this, they're sitting on a gold mine. Making more WoW clones isn't where the money is, catering to the hardcore, who have nowhere else to go, is what they should be doing.

This logic doesn't make sense at all.

Name one MMO that doesn't let you group up?

Most games gives players a choice and tries to get them to group up via loot/gold/exp.

Whether the players group up or not is up to the playerbase.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Mushii77

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 8

8/31/12 5:44:51 AM#84

The problem is that much of the player base are lazy, antisocial acne ridden teens who have no wish to communicate with the outside world if they are not in their posse.

Many of the  original EQ1 players were geeks who had previously played  D&D, which is a very social past time, EQ1 was nothing more than an extension of this society. Today's player base is a different breed, the geeks are the minority  as MMOs have come to the masses.

Personally I'd love to see EQ1 run on the EQ2 engine, but that is my pie in the sky  dream.  What the MMO industry needs is another Smed / Brad combo with sufficient vision to break the mold  of the current fast food MMO  cycle.

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2167

8/31/12 6:31:26 AM#85


Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Tibernicus There are still a ton of people out there that like grouping and socializing. Millions. And no AAA game is catering to them. If any publisher wakes up and realizes this, they're sitting on a gold mine. Making more WoW clones isn't where the money is, catering to the hardcore, who have nowhere else to go, is what they should be doing.
This logic doesn't make sense at all.

Name one MMO that doesn't let you group up?

Most games gives players a choice and tries to get them to group up via loot/gold/exp.

Whether the players group up or not is up to the playerbase.



I don't think you play enough MMO games, there are ALOT of players that just simply don't group at all, games like SWTOR where you can go completely solo from level 1-50, solo queue pvp, solo dailies, etc. Games like SWG (pre NGE) there wasn't much solo'ing other than grinding professions on fambaas, Jantas and whatnot but it took alot to be able to solo a Nightsister Elder, Giant Dune Kimogila and Krayt dragons but they were better off hunted in a group (of up to 20 people), games like that just hardly exist anymore. However solo'ing in Guild Wars 2 is very difficult, mobs take for freaking ever to kill by yourself and you definitely can't solo pvp effectively since it's team-objective based, so ArenaNet is doing something right with GW2.


  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12970

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/31/12 7:22:05 AM#86
Originally posted by Tibernicus
There are still a ton of people out there that like grouping and socializing. Millions. And no AAA game is catering to them. If any publisher wakes up and realizes this, they're sitting on a gold mine. Making more WoW clones isn't where the money is, catering to the hardcore, who have nowhere else to go, is what they should be doing.

Since you stated that as fact, you should send a developer the data you have that supports that because tht could really go a long way toward getting investors to throw millions of dollars at such a project.

 

Cool Crowfall info and speculation - http://www.thewulfden.com/search/label/Crowfall

  faxnadu

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/08
Posts: 959

playing games that you don't have to.

8/31/12 7:27:17 AM#87

non solo orented games are for weak players and who is to say nobody will enjoy playing in group for random peoples?

as i see it you only play in groups and raids if thats the only way to go forward ingame . if you are doing that cause you want to chat and talk to other maybe then its gone to level where you are friends and more than just random nobodies. and usually you are in your guild and have been years and you move game to game. 

  slowpoke68

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 403

 
OP  8/31/12 7:57:37 AM#88
Originally posted by Muerte_X

You can really tell from the replies who has played old games and who has not... A lfg finder does not make a game less solo centric. It puts you in with random strangers whom usually do not talk to each other and most likely will never see each other again because it pulls from across servers. In older games, group play had a different connotation. You would find some buddies, get in or form a guild together, and would develop long lasting relationships with them through playing and socializing. In most everything prewow, there were no quests so the burden of being on different rails in questing was not there. It freed people up to group and socialize.

I pose this question: if you want play almost entirely solo, why are you playing an MMO? They have worse graphics and storyline than SPRPGs. So you are playing an inferior product to not capture the only strength of that product... does not make sense to me.

To the OP: We will have to wait and see. The Repop might be, but it does have a questing system that might discourage group play in the "leveling" (no actual levels, skill system) process, but afterwards with city building/sieges will be the social aspect.  I have the same thoughts on AA; I think it will be a solo run to cap then castle building/warfare fun at the end.

Edit: sp

Thank you.  Was about to address LFD as grouping but you did it for me.

 

LFD is not what I am talking about.  It could not be less like old time grouping. 

 

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1834

8/31/12 1:22:44 PM#89
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by MMOwanderer

I never played EQ1, but, if you're refering to AAA, high budget game, then, extremely unlikely.

The mmo playerbase nowadays wants to play with the people they know. Family members, RL friends and guildies. People prefer to be in this comfortable position of isolation from other with those they trust,a nd put all those they don't know afar.

This si because most casual players want to play it like a co-op game with others around the, but not with them.

Only change of something that isn't just a co-op leveling adventure is probably in indie mmos. Maybe EQ, TITAN, or, lookign at CCP's history, WOD.

This!

I love MMO's, but I love them primarily because I can play with close friends and keep playing beyond the limits of what a typical console-type co-op game can provide.   l love seeing other people around me and even interacting with them...when I choose too.  I even like reading some of the general chat.  It makes me feel like I'm with others as opposed to true solo games like Skyrim.  I also like crafting and interacting with others via buying and selling items.

However, do not FORCE me to play with people in order to get things done.  If there are certain side quests that require groups, that's fine, so long as me skipping those doesn't make my character weaker because of it.  Just let me play how I want to play.  If I want to group up then let me do that, but if I don't then let me do that as well.

Exactly why we won't ever see the group oriented MMO again, the majority of the market thinks like this.

The rest of us are firmly in the niche and no major Dev house will ever be able to cater to that, the economics just don't make sense.

 

Sad but True Kyleran.

I'm not understanding what' sad about it or why it's such a dificult concept for many to accept?  Many of us want to be around other people, have the 'option' to interact with other people, actively group and play with close friends, talk to other people, trade crafts with other people, and yes even group up and make friends with new people and play with them....we just dont' want to be FORCED to do it.  Pretty simple concept really. 

Plaing Devil's advocate, for a moment. I don't want to be FORCED to hit a ball over a net with a raquet either. However, I don't demand or expect that the rules of Tennis be modified to suit that desire. No do I complain that Tennis exists as a sport for people who enjoy it. I'm never FORCED to play Tennis, there are plenty of other games out there that I can choose to play instead, that don't involve hitting a ball over a net with a raquet. When I'm actualy in the mood to play Tennis, I can do that too.

What's SAD is the idea that ALL MMO's must be designed to suit your individual tastes and play-styles (i.e. solo freindly) and that there seems to be no room to build games around mechanics where grouping and player interaction is CENTRAL to game-play and that experience. I don't believe anyone is advocating you not be able to pursue your prefered play-style (I know I'm not) it's just that your doing so in the same game as ours, prevents us from being able to PURSUE OURS.

I think that's the one thing that "soloers" really fail to appreciate. Playing in a game where grouping is simply OPTIONAL rather then a central and expected function of the game qualitatevely and DRAMATICALY alters the game-play experience for GROUPERS because the mechanics of and environment of the game have to be drasticaly altered to do so. It's kinda like trying to pretend that playing both football and baseball on the same field at the same time doesn't have any effect on the players of either game. It'd be really nice if it were true, but it's simply not realistic. I don't think the football players have any real right to look down on the baseball players but it should be completely understandable to everyone that they desire thier own field where thier game experience doesn't have to be dramaticaly altered to account for the fact that someone else is trying to play baseball on it at the same time.

Now I get market forces and all that...that's just the unfortunate side of the free market. Though I do think there are enough folks who like group/cooperative play to support thier own products. Fact is, market forces and peoples tastes change all the time...and whats old one day is suddenly en vogue again the next. So I'm not convinced the pendulum isn't going to swing back in favor of grouping some day again. What I'm not getting is why it's so difficult for people to understand and accept in this case that one persons prefered play style actualy effects the others when you try to combine them in the same game/product/design. That wouldn't be so hard to conceptualize if we replaced "grouping" and "soloing" with the terms "classic fantasy" and "Sci Fi" would it?

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2167

8/31/12 1:29:31 PM#90

MMO = massively multiplayer online, I've been in a few games where it's completely solo and it sucks to pass dozens of players without them saying anything hence there's hardly no social atmosphere, asking for help or whatever it is. When SWG had the NGE happen, the social aspect of the game was killed.


Believe me, I find grouping far more fun, unfortunately I was unable to find many people to level up with in SWTOR although I was getting along fine but when I managed to group up with some people, I had a blast. You don't know what you're missing if you're spending too much time alone in MMO games. Last night in GW2, I grouped up with some people and we were wrecking things left & right.


If you want to solo in an MMO, a single player RPG is better suited for you.


  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1834

8/31/12 1:30:56 PM#91
Originally posted by EllieAnne
The problem you have with group oriented MMOs would be what do you do if no one is on?  There were many time I had to run around as the squishy healer unable to finish a quest because no one was around.  OK, so now you make the characters multipurpose enough to do a little of everything so now loners go out and do the quests alone.  So now you make it harder to solo with harder mobs or requiring a party of 2+ to finish a quest and we're right back where I started with what do you do if no one is around?

Well you are making some basic assumptions there...

1) That you even have quests.

2) That accomplishment of the quests is tracked to you as an individual (i.e. "Ellie has killed 10 rats and retrieved that wand of the flaming monkey")  rather then your faction/group (i.e. "The Kingdom of Nod has cleared the Black Castle of foes and reclaimed it as thier own")

3) That many quests involve instancing or taking you out of the general game world into some seperate space with your group.

While those assumptions are pretty accurate for your standard "WoW-esque" MMO of today....there is nothing inherent about them that an MMO has to revolve or be designed around them. I mean it's pretty rare that litteraly no one else is around on the same server you are on in an MMO (i.e. you do a WHO command and you are the only name displayed). If a game is ACTUALY built around the concept of character interaction as a central design concept of the game itself...then it's likely to be pretty rare that there is NOTHING for you to do that involves other players (even strangers) wanting to interact an coordinate with you (see my FPS examples in previous threads). It's just that traditional MMO's, even ones that involve significant "Group/RAID content" aren't really built around character interaction and cooperation as a central design concept of the game.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

8/31/12 2:08:24 PM#92
Originally posted by Grimlock426

Sad but True Kyleran.

I'm not understanding what' sad about it or why it's such a dificult concept for many to accept?  Many of us want to be around other people, have the 'option' to interact with other people, actively group and play with close friends, talk to other people, trade crafts with other people, and yes even group up and make friends with new people and play with them....we just dont' want to be FORCED to do it.  Pretty simple concept really. 

I don't understand what you don't understand.

People who want group and community oriented mmorpg's want a game for themself.

They don't want to take your solo oriented games and turn them into games you don't like.

They just want some diffrent games for themself and are sad cause they don't get them. That's why they are sad - because devs cater to your group only.

Preety simple thing really.

 

============

Btw.   doing solo quests with a group is NOT group content.

It is doing solo content with a group.

 

Nor is scalable DE from GW2.  Bit better than solo quests, but kinda moot if  'ogre mage from DE' is as easily killed by 3 people as by 30.  They also don't NEED cooperation and grouping. GW2 is even more solo oriented than classic themeparks.

Still can be fun.  Just not fun kind some people want.

Eating really good strawberry icecream cannot really replace chocolate if you crave for chocolate.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3882

8/31/12 2:47:20 PM#93
Originally posted by gaugemew

No one is wiling to fail because of someone else.  A side result of this is that the content difficulty is being scaled to the least common denominator.  Since it has to be soloable.

Our society is becoming very solo, even beyond video games.  No one cares about anyone else.  It's a cultural shift more than anything.  We need to get back to a time when we stop blaming people for failing and start helping them not fail.  On the other side of things, people who fail need to recognize they have failed and except help.

THIS..  ^^

     As you said, it's a cultural shift in life generally.. LOOK at our politics today in the US.. Everyone is blaming everyone else for the troubles we are having.. instead of "working" together..  Sickening if you ask me.. I will have to say I did like the direction GW2 took with "soft" grouping.. it's not exactly what I want, but I like how so far people do jump into dynamic events and I have recieved plenty of "revives" as I have revived others numerous times..  I hope this will foster more community interaction that it is US the community uniting, then being devided.. 

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

8/31/12 4:23:34 PM#94
Originally posted by slowpoke68
Originally posted by Muerte_X

You can really tell from the replies who has played old games and who has not... A lfg finder does not make a game less solo centric. It puts you in with random strangers whom usually do not talk to each other and most likely will never see each other again because it pulls from across servers. In older games, group play had a different connotation. You would find some buddies, get in or form a guild together, and would develop long lasting relationships with them through playing and socializing. In most everything prewow, there were no quests so the burden of being on different rails in questing was not there. It freed people up to group and socialize.

I pose this question: if you want play almost entirely solo, why are you playing an MMO? They have worse graphics and storyline than SPRPGs. So you are playing an inferior product to not capture the only strength of that product... does not make sense to me.

To the OP: We will have to wait and see. The Repop might be, but it does have a questing system that might discourage group play in the "leveling" (no actual levels, skill system) process, but afterwards with city building/sieges will be the social aspect.  I have the same thoughts on AA; I think it will be a solo run to cap then castle building/warfare fun at the end.

Edit: sp

Thank you.  Was about to address LFD as grouping but you did it for me.

 

LFD is not what I am talking about.  It could not be less like old time grouping. 

 

Well, LFD *is* group .. and not a solo-game. If i want to play with random stranger, i canNOT do it in a SP RPG.

Sure it is different than old time grouping. It is BETTER to me .. since it is much more convenient, and i don't have to waste time chatting. You may not like it but it is obviously wrong to say it is solo-ing.

 

  nariusseldon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 21640

8/31/12 4:25:20 PM#95
Originally posted by sookster54


If you want to solo in an MMO, a single player RPG is better suited for you.

Not really.

Few solo RPGs has a auction house to trade. Few solo RPGs has as many classes and combat mechanics as MMOs. Few solo RPGs have as much quest content as MMOs.

 

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

8/31/12 4:31:14 PM#96

i dont mind interacting with other real people in a mmo..but ONLY on my terms.  sometimes even though i prefer solo play its nice to see others running around and to watch conversations.

Times have changed, the good old days are gone and the end is nigh.

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
—Lao-Tze

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

8/31/12 5:56:03 PM#97
Originally posted by fenistil

I don't understand what you don't understand.

People who want group and community oriented mmorpg's want a game for themself.

They don't want to take your solo oriented games and turn them into games you don't like.

They just want some diffrent games for themself and are sad cause they don't get them. That's why they are sad - because devs cater to your group only.

Preety simple thing really.

 

And that's all fine, but in order to get it, you have to convince developers that there are enough people who want that kind of game, who are going to pay for that kind of game over the long term, to make it worth spending millions of dollars and years upon years of development.

They don't get these games because no one is convinced that there is a financially viable market for them!

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

8/31/12 5:59:53 PM#98
Originally posted by sookster54

MMO = massively multiplayer online, I've been in a few games where it's completely solo and it sucks to pass dozens of players without them saying anything hence there's hardly no social atmosphere, asking for help or whatever it is. When SWG had the NGE happen, the social aspect of the game was killed.


Believe me, I find grouping far more fun, unfortunately I was unable to find many people to level up with in SWTOR although I was getting along fine but when I managed to group up with some people, I had a blast. You don't know what you're missing if you're spending too much time alone in MMO games. Last night in GW2, I grouped up with some people and we were wrecking things left & right.


If you want to solo in an MMO, a single player RPG is better suited for you.

Sorry, but single player RPGs don't have nearly the breadth and depth of content, nor the constant updating, patching and expansions, that MMOs have, which is what most people who solo want.  A single player game can be finished in a couple of days or weeks, with very few exceptions (like Skyrim), an MMO goes on and on and on and on.

If you can find us a never-ending succession of Skyrim-like games, hey, I'll leave MMOs forever and never come back.  Until then, the majority of people who play MMOs are like me and we've got all the financial power.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  funyahns

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/12
Posts: 317

8/31/12 6:08:27 PM#99
 Funny I consider hotbar MMO combat to be terrible. The only reason I play it is because it is live and online with other people.  Who knows maybe one day things will change, I just make sure to vote with my wallet on games that I don't like.
  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1661

8/31/12 6:11:31 PM#100
Vanguard SoH

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

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