Originally posted by MadKing

Any one else got a email survey from Funcom about TSW asking what would make you purchase it? 

I just did the survey and the questions they asked I found was pretty sad. 

Yeah I got that survey last night and filled it out right away. It came off as desperate, "WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO MAKE YOU LOVE ME!?"

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

55.5% of that poll are people choosing a "No Sub" option of some form.

 

Guess we know the answer hm?

Yep, this site is full of freeloaders :)     But that's not anything new.  Pretty much every MMO that's come out in the past 5 years has had the "i would play it if it didn't have sub or was free" reaction.

 

I guess I just have a different mentality.  I rarely like a game enough to want to play it but not enough to pay.  I either like a game and am willing to pay for it or i don't like it and woulnd't play it regardless of cost.   That's just me though.

 

I guess this makes everyone that plays any single player game a free loader too ? Given they only pay a the box price and no sub . Where is set in stone that an mmo should have a subscription fee ? Its not but your just to limited in your thinking and dogmatic in your attitude to see it . The  markets changing and the developers need to evolve or die .

Releasing TSW as not only a subscription based game ( higher subs in the EU as well than any other mmo ) with a cash shop was an unbelievably effing stupid move . It was bound to fail big time and it did . Now had they had the sence to realise the game would have greater appeal as buy to play there would be huge numbers playing it now and we would all have been calling it a success .

I really hope you dont go into buisness for yourself you wont survive long before you go bankrupt . Maybe try and apply some common sence to your arguements in future before you call people freeloaders for liking a buy to play buisness model .

After all they will pay 50 dollars upfront for such games . They are not playing for nothing on a private/pirate server .

Originally posted by roo67

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

55.5% of that poll are people choosing a "No Sub" option of some form.

 

Guess we know the answer hm?

Yep, this site is full of freeloaders :)     But that's not anything new.  Pretty much every MMO that's come out in the past 5 years has had the "i would play it if it didn't have sub or was free" reaction.

 

I guess I just have a different mentality.  I rarely like a game enough to want to play it but not enough to pay.  I either like a game and am willing to pay for it or i don't like it and woulnd't play it regardless of cost.   That's just me though.

 

I guess this makes everyone that plays any single player game a free loader too ? Given they only pay a the box price and no sub . Where is set in stone that an mmo should have a subscription fee ? Its not but your just to limited in your thinking and dogmatic in your attitude to see it . The  markets changing and the developers need to evolve or die .

Releasing TSW as not only a subscription based game ( higher subs in the EU as well than any other mmo ) with a cash shop was an unbelievably effing stupid move . It was bound to fail big time and it did . Now had they had the sence to realise the game would have greater appeal as buy to play there would be huge numbers playing it now and we would all have been calling it a success .

I really hope you dont go into buisness for yourself you wont survive long before you go bankrupt . Maybe try and apply some common sence to your arguements in future before you call people freeloaders for liking a buy to play buisness model .

After all they will pay 50 dollars upfront for such games . They are not playing for nothing on a private/pirate server .

 You would be right ..If it wasn't for the existence of piracy..

No...The new breed of gamers are FREELOADERS for sure..

Spoiled bratz that wants everything for free...

Free betas, most kids do all the betas, and if they can't play for free, they won't buy..Most wont buy because by the 2 weeks of open beta is over it's time for the next beta in some other game,

Free to play

and Torents and piracy.

If you think you are not going to pay more than 60 $ for GW2..Well think again..the average gamer will spend hundreds in the online store, and if not, then there will be some other player that spends "for you"..

Nothing, was in Beta (Closed and recieved Invite to Open as well).

Couldn't get the Game to launch, [machine is above min specs - graphics card is only thing not at recommended and even that wouldn't prevent game launching].

Have downloaded the retail client [due to Beta access] and still couldn't launch it. Issue was thoroughly reported and remains unresolved.

Beyond that I couldn't say what the game is 'Worth'.

BTW I voted Nothing for the above reason.

Originally posted by roo67

Releasing TSW as not only a subscription based game ( higher subs in the EU as well than any other mmo ) with a cash shop was an unbelievably effing stupid move . 

Every single successful AAA MMO ever released was released with a purcahse price and monthly sub.  So I have a hard time calling a AAA publisher "stupid" for following a proven model of financial success.   It may be safe rather than "progressive", but it's certainly far from stupid.

But let's take commercial success out of the equation.  I always say that commercial success is a crappy indicator of how good a game actually is.  That being said, even taking all the commercial flops into account, so far, I've not played a single decent  MMO that did not launch with a subscription.  

Every MMO I've played that was either B2P or Cash Shop from the start has been massively substandard.   So to me, any publisher that launches a game without sub is basically saying:  "hey, our game is trash and not worth it in the long term, so have it free".  

The world is changing and microtransactions will probably destroy the subscription model within a couple of years.  But, until at least a couple of decent games launch without a sub and prove that developers can provide the same sort of entertainment value, quality and support as sub games, I'll just go with my experience and consider those subpar, since that's what they've always been.  

And as far as calling people "freeloaders", I'm sorry if you were offended.  But if you tell me that you actually like a game and want to play it, but then tell me that you don't want to pay for it, well, i don't know what else to call you.   I too would like everything in the world to be free.  I just don't expect it to be.

Originally posted by roo67 I guess this makes everyone that plays any single player game a free loader too ? 

Please. A single player game doesn't cost anything for the developer after release. According to the crowd here, an MMO should constantly deliver new content, refine old content and have a huge staff in CS, advertizing, tech help, GMs, pluss the obvious server maintanence.  Freerider2P gamers are parasites on paying customers by definition.

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by roo67

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

55.5% of that poll are people choosing a "No Sub" option of some form.

 

Guess we know the answer hm?

Yep, this site is full of freeloaders :)     But that's not anything new.  Pretty much every MMO that's come out in the past 5 years has had the "i would play it if it didn't have sub or was free" reaction.

 

I guess I just have a different mentality.  I rarely like a game enough to want to play it but not enough to pay.  I either like a game and am willing to pay for it or i don't like it and woulnd't play it regardless of cost.   That's just me though.

 

I guess this makes everyone that plays any single player game a free loader too ? Given they only pay a the box price and no sub . Where is set in stone that an mmo should have a subscription fee ? Its not but your just to limited in your thinking and dogmatic in your attitude to see it . The  markets changing and the developers need to evolve or die .

Releasing TSW as not only a subscription based game ( higher subs in the EU as well than any other mmo ) with a cash shop was an unbelievably effing stupid move . It was bound to fail big time and it did . Now had they had the sence to realise the game would have greater appeal as buy to play there would be huge numbers playing it now and we would all have been calling it a success .

I really hope you dont go into buisness for yourself you wont survive long before you go bankrupt . Maybe try and apply some common sence to your arguements in future before you call people freeloaders for liking a buy to play buisness model .

After all they will pay 50 dollars upfront for such games . They are not playing for nothing on a private/pirate server .

 You would be right ..If it wasn't for the existence of piracy..

No...The new breed of gamers are FREELOADERS for sure..

Spoiled bratz that wants everything for free...

Free betas, most kids do all the betas, and if they can't play for free, they won't buy..Most wont buy because by the 2 weeks of open beta is over it's time for the next beta in some other game,

Free to play

and Torents and piracy.

If you think you are not going to pay more than 60 $ for GW2..Well think again..the average gamer will spend hundreds in the online store, and if not, then there will be some other player that spends "for you"..

Yeah... but the difference is I'm not being forced to pay for something I already paid for... and if I don't pay a sub, then the 50 or so bucks I spent on the game itself is wasted.  It's a game I purchased that can't be used.  That's why I don't like subscription games.

Call people freeloaders all you want, but the sad fact is that I might still pay a sub for a game I find fun and engaging or that has decent combat.  TSW isn't that game.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Yeah... but the difference is I'm not being forced to pay for something I already paid for... and if I don't pay a sub, then the 50 or so bucks I spent on the game itself is wasted.  It's a game I purchased that can't be used.  That's why I don't like subscription games.

Call people freeloaders all you want, but the sad fact is that I might still pay a sub for a game I find fun and engaging or that has decent combat.  TSW isn't that game.

I don't find anything sad about the fact that you're willing to pay for a product that entertains you.   I personaly do it on a daily basis and am quite proud of it.  Somewhere out there, a group of people has made something that brings joy to my life.  I'm happy to give them some money - both for doing it and in the hope that they do more of it in the future.  

As far as being forced.. you're never FORCED to pay.  You paid for 30 days of gaming.  You got 30 days of gaming.  If you still find the game fun - pay and play.  If you don't - you got what you paid for.   The reason that the first 30 days tend to cost $60 rather than $15 is that generally, you get a lot more out of your first month with a video game than out of any other month.  (Plus there are business reasons in terms of recouping investment, etc.)

There are about 20 different MMOs that i "bought" (as in "paid for box and 1 month")  that i can't play anymore if i don't pay the monthly fee.  Well.. i played them, i had fun in them, i got something out of the money i spent.  I decided they weren't worth playing anymore.  So i don't pay anymore.  I'm not forced to do anything.  If I change my mind and decide that "hey maybe it's worth playing after all", then I'll pony up the sub fee and play again.  But chances are, if i stopped playing the game, it's because i no longer found it fun.  And if i no longer find it fun to play, i don't really care that i can't play it anymore.

IMHO, the payment model for MMOs is becoming a big factor in holding back these games.

I don't believe that any of the models works well. Because of the aversion to anything that reeks of Pay2Win, F2P generally deals in cosmetic/low-bonus perks that are real easy to avoid. I know I wouldn't pay money to get a fancy looking house/mount/clothes. This drives the percentage of those who pay down, and I think really skews the demographics.

Also, most of the AAA F2P games out there were not designed that way. If they were, they most certainly would not be the games they were initially. You just can't afford the budget without the box sale to help amortize a large development cost.

B2P is at least straightforward, but I question its long-term sustainability. The most famous of these, GW1, from my understanding was able to do this because the content was largely instanced, and run Peer2Peer between those in the instance. This kept their infrastructure costs down. GW2 seems less instanced from what I've read, so I'm not sure how they expect to expense the server costs as game sales go down, unless they go to a much rapid expansion cycle, which ends up almost being a sub.

But neither do subs work, except for one company out there. The problem isn't evident to those of you who spend every day in the game. But I don't have that MMO fever any more, and neither do a lot of non-MMO players out there. Would $15/month be worth it if you only played 5 hours?

WoW, in my opinion, managed to cross the line into the "Facebook" effect (or was it the other way around?...) In any case, WoW is a good enough game that one plays with ones friends, and if they all happen to be there, makes it hard to switch unless you pay for two subs or decide to leave old friends behind. So while people might experiment with another game, odds are they go back.

I'm beginning to think that MMOs should develop a new model, maybe calling it a "micro-sub" where you buy access in small, non-time based increments. For example, you buy the box, and that gives you an N-level/XP/AP/SP/CR/whatever cap. You can buy and increase, and it persists forever. So play as much as you want, or a little--your paid limits remain. If you reach your cap, fine. You can still login and chat with friends (it shouldn't kick you out, as that would decrease the likelihood that you'd pay for a bump up.)

I'm not sure if the above would work, but personally, it's a more straightforward and scalable (to the player) way to pay for access.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by thark

Originally posted by roo67

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

55.5% of that poll are people choosing a "No Sub" option of some form.

 

Guess we know the answer hm?

Yep, this site is full of freeloaders :)     But that's not anything new.  Pretty much every MMO that's come out in the past 5 years has had the "i would play it if it didn't have sub or was free" reaction.

 

I guess I just have a different mentality.  I rarely like a game enough to want to play it but not enough to pay.  I either like a game and am willing to pay for it or i don't like it and woulnd't play it regardless of cost.   That's just me though.

 

I guess this makes everyone that plays any single player game a free loader too ? Given they only pay a the box price and no sub . Where is set in stone that an mmo should have a subscription fee ? Its not but your just to limited in your thinking and dogmatic in your attitude to see it . The  markets changing and the developers need to evolve or die .

Releasing TSW as not only a subscription based game ( higher subs in the EU as well than any other mmo ) with a cash shop was an unbelievably effing stupid move . It was bound to fail big time and it did . Now had they had the sence to realise the game would have greater appeal as buy to play there would be huge numbers playing it now and we would all have been calling it a success .

I really hope you dont go into buisness for yourself you wont survive long before you go bankrupt . Maybe try and apply some common sence to your arguements in future before you call people freeloaders for liking a buy to play buisness model .

After all they will pay 50 dollars upfront for such games . They are not playing for nothing on a private/pirate server .

 You would be right ..If it wasn't for the existence of piracy..

No...The new breed of gamers are FREELOADERS for sure..

Spoiled bratz that wants everything for free...

Free betas, most kids do all the betas, and if they can't play for free, they won't buy..Most wont buy because by the 2 weeks of open beta is over it's time for the next beta in some other game,

Free to play

and Torents and piracy.

If you think you are not going to pay more than 60 $ for GW2..Well think again..the average gamer will spend hundreds in the online store, and if not, then there will be some other player that spends "for you"..

Yeah... but the difference is I'm not being forced to pay for something I already paid for... and if I don't pay a sub, then the 50 or so bucks I spent on the game itself is wasted.  It's a game I purchased that can't be used.  That's why I don't like subscription games.

Call people freeloaders all you want, but the sad fact is that I might still pay a sub for a game I find fun and engaging or that has decent combat.  TSW isn't that game.

 Who is forcing you ? 

You did get a "free month" didn't you ?

The 50 $ you spend on ANY game is "always" spent or  wasted if  you  like the game or not..

Why is it a sad fact that you would pay for some other game you like?

This is how it should be under normal circumstances..If you like it pay , If you don't, well then don't !!

49.99 and NO sub. Hell, if the game is good i would pay even $80 for a digital deluxe edition (i did with Swtor) but remove the sub.

Years ago a subscription meant the mmo was good. Today, subscription means "we will make an incomplete AA mmo, call it AAA and charge a sub before it fails.... and dont forget to add a cash shop for extra moneys. When it fails then we make it hybrid and milk the free players"

GW2 is the best example that a high quality mmo dont need a sub / hybrid model anymore. The game just needs to be developed and published by the right people to succeed with no sub.

Ave B2P!!!

The problem is that the game isn't an mmo.  It has 8 tiny, instanced, static worlds, with one lobby.  The investigations are poorly done and a gimmick.  Progression is insanely fast with over 70% of the wheel being worthless skills anyway.  The writing is poor and the voice acting is cringeworthy... besides, imo, stories and voice are a waste of time in MMOs.  Completely wasted resources from the devs.

The game is a single player with occasional coop, but with less content than most single player games.  The game, especially the endgame, is a poorly done wow clone, with 1/10 the content, and disconnected instanced zones.

Originally posted by shadow9d9

The problem is that the game isn't an mmo.  It has 8 tiny, instanced, static worlds, with one lobby.  The investigations are poorly done and a gimmick.  Progression is insanely fast with over 70% of the wheel being worthless skills anyway.  The writing is poor and the voice acting is cringeworthy... besides, imo, stories and voice are a waste of time in MMOs.  Completely wasted resources from the devs.

The game is a single player with occasional coop, but with less content than most single player games.  The game, especially the endgame, is a poorly done wow clone, with 1/10 the content, and disconnected instanced zones.

 Haha..Good for you.. I do not believe one word you say..

But If it somehow was true regarding TSW,  you are in a very very small minority that thinks this way ..:)

I like TSW a lot. 

What's hurting it is the sub, especially in competition with GW2 right now. If they did a p2p + cs, I think there would be more players in a month or so after the GW2 hubub dies down a bit.  

I bought a lifetime sub to TSW, which I don't regret, so I don't have any dogs in this fight. I'm just saying what I think. If they did a cash shop like GW2 with bag space, cosmetics, bank tabs, xp boosts, etc., I think that would work  for the people who don't want to play the typical fantasy-type game. 

From my own point of view, I don' t like gear grinds and endgame raiding either, because it breeds a kind of elitism.  I think GW2 can avoid this with its current design. I hope so. But I see TSW heading down the endgame gear grind path, and I think the days for those kinds of games are over. Most people who want  to do that are probably in WoW getting ready for MoP.

After seeing what GW2 is giving with no sub , just a box fee + shop , I find it ridiculous I even put in CC infor for TSW.

It was fun initially , but quickly became painfully evident not worth a sub fee.