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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Will we ever see a non-solo oriented mmo again?

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247 posts found
  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1127

8/30/12 11:00:31 AM#21

Before EQ2 got turned into another SOE WoW clone you couldn't progress through that game solo. Even from the Starter Isle they got you to group up several times and then the last quest objective you needed a group. Then once you got into the city quest zones half the mobs were grouped and you needed to group for most of it. Once you got to CL and Antonica you needed a group, unless you liked grinding for days waiting for solo mobs to get one level then you HAD to group. It was an amazing experience and one of the best grouping games out there and most of the quests were more than just "kill 10 rats" which for it's time when WoW basically invented quest based levelling, that was a really kool thing. 

I spent every moment of the beta in a group and because regenerating health and mana from potions was so slow you had to have downtimes a lot and you'd just sit there for 5 mins chatting and being social. Just to get to your dungeon or quest objective you needed to be alert because you could get wiped easily and then you'd have xp debt and gear damage. I had some nights where I just went backwards because I had a poor group. 

However after launch SOE released like 40 odd servers even though they could clone each zone over and over and then WoW came out like a week or two after and the game died. By December you couldn't get a group because everyone who was still playing was in the mid to high levels so it became so boring for new players. I still don't get why SOE went from the amazing 1 beta server that cloned every zone over and over until you'd have like 8 instances of the same zone even in beta. Then on release they released too many servers and basically killed off the game because it was group based and the population was spread too thin.

Then instead of fixing the issue they dumbed the game down and turned it into WoW. The Ironic thing is now all the voice acting stuff they were doing and super kool immersive RPG quests they were doing has all gone. Now it's like playing WoW from years ago "kill 10 of these!" and "collect 5 of these" and it's even easier than WoW too, I solo'd every single thing in the game without any threat of dying and could tank like 10 mobs at once with my SK lol.

 

Such a sad demise for a game that had such potential, really though the biggest mistake was in beta they announced it was releasing in 2 weeks as SOE always does and the community went mad. Everyone was saying it's not ready, so many features were missing and SOE didn't listen, they released it and oh look it tanked and got beaten by the better and more polish gamed.

 

The other sad thing is even WoW from 2004/2005 is more group focused than any MMO today. I went back to play a classic WoW server and I died quite a lot, I forgot how tough these games used to be and how I'm not used to it any more. 

 

I wish someone made EQ2 classic servers, would be amazing. Even the stuff they were trying to do with the boat ride, the first thing you see in the game was trying to be ground breaking. Instead of building upon that though, SOE took the option to just dumb it down, not focus on the RPG immersive aspect and just turn it into a WoW clone.

 

 

/spit SOE.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

8/30/12 11:04:32 AM#22

Your only hope is an indie developed niche game.The masses have spoken in many forums and with their wallets,they don't wnt forced grouping and don't want to sit aroudn waiting to find a group to do anything at all.

I myself feel there's notihng wrong with having solo content to do whislt waiting to do group cotnent but that group content shoudl be the main meat of an MMO.

  trenshod

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/11
Posts: 129

8/30/12 11:06:18 AM#23
Originally posted by slowpoke68

The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server.  Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together.  We actually chatted and socialized while doing it.  No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on.  People actually went out of their way to group.  As a result you actually saw a community forming.

Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back,

Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again?  Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level.  No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.

 

 

Isn't that why you join a guild? I'm sorry but the social expect of gaming I'm just not into. So as far that goes I could really care less. If i wanted to chat with people I would visit a forum like this or hit up a irc channel. The less typing in game the better, most people don't have anything good to say anyways.

  sirphobos

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 608

8/30/12 11:08:38 AM#24

I loved Everquest, but I will not play another game with forced grouping to level up.

That being said, I wish games at least would promote grouping as the preferred way to level.  In most games it's actually slower to level up as a group, which is just dumb, in my opinion.

  Vegetto

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/04
Posts: 854

8/30/12 11:13:32 AM#25


Originally posted by trenshod

Originally posted by slowpoke68 The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server.  Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together.  We actually chatted and socialized while doing it.  No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on.  People actually went out of their way to group.  As a result you actually saw a community forming. Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back, Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again?  Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level.  No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.    
Isn't that why you join a guild? I'm sorry but the social expect of gaming I'm just not into. So as far that goes I could really care less. If i wanted to chat with people I would visit a forum like this or hit up a irc channel. The less typing in game the better, most people don't have anything good to say anyways.

If that is the case, is a MMO purely played purely as a pissing contest like FPS games, just in a competitive manner? Without grouping, chat or social aspects, all it is, is a medievil Battlefield 3?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

8/30/12 11:26:34 AM#26
Originally posted by Vegetto

 


Originally posted by trenshod

Originally posted by slowpoke68 The most fun I have had playing an MMO over the last couple of years was playing on the EQ1 time lock progression server.  Got in on launch day...found a group of people, went some where, and killed mobs together.  We actually chatted and socialized while doing it.  No worrying about what quest everyone had and what step they were on, and you didn't see people running by ignoring each other because they were so caught up in whatever solo goal they were working on.  People actually went out of their way to group.  As a result you actually saw a community forming. Had a blast for about a month, then SOE had the massive server hack problem, and by the time the servers came back up I got busy irl and never went back, Anyway, my point is, will we ever see this game design again?  Every MMO since WoW seems to be a leveling experience of running around solo and occasionally grouping to do whatever instance happens to be on level.  No real need to interact with others except for end game raiding.    
Isn't that why you join a guild? I'm sorry but the social expect of gaming I'm just not into. So as far that goes I could really care less. If i wanted to chat with people I would visit a forum like this or hit up a irc channel. The less typing in game the better, most people don't have anything good to say anyways.

 

If that is the case, is a MMO purely played purely as a pissing contest like FPS games, just in a competitive manner? Without grouping, chat or social aspects, all it is, is a medievil Battlefield 3?

You don't need the social aspects to group. Just group through LFD.

And i don't recall Battlefield 3 has small group co-op dungeon crawl with scripted boss mechanics.

I also don't play MMOs for the social aspects. If i want to chat, i go chat, NOT play a MMO. I play MMOs for small group co-op pve content, which is NOT available in FPSes (except may be Borderlands 2 .. which of course i will play).

 

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

8/30/12 11:40:42 AM#27

When they stop using the broke ass holy trinity formula for grouping, punishing people that aren't withing a few levels, get rid of group cap, stop making grouping such an elitest "learn to play" douche bag fest I'm sure we will see more group oriented games.

 

I'd like playing with people but the way grouping is set up no thank I'll stick with the solo friendly games.

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

8/30/12 11:44:32 AM#28
Originally posted by Venger

When they stop using the broke ass holy trinity formula for grouping, punishing people that aren't withing a few levels, get rid of group cap, stop making grouping such an elitest "learn to play" douche bag fest I'm sure we will see more group oriented games.

 

I'd like playing with people but the way grouping is set up no thank I'll stick with the solo friendly games.

There's nothing wrong with the holy trinity formula.  Some of the best group-oriented games have used it.  The problem is the current incarnation of it has been dumbed down because they've done away with the "control" part of the dps arm of the trinity.  There used to be a time when crowd control specialists were as important to the group as healers and tanks...you simply couldn't function effectively without one. 

  arctarus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/06
Posts: 2590

8/30/12 11:49:31 AM#29

1) We wont, because those times happens when we were young,  we have the time to spend hours per day on mmo.

Now? all grown up and having real life that requires more and more of our time, and we being the generations that start mmo, and now have the spending power but no time, only way the devs gona grap our money is to make games thats able to cater to our timetable.

Thus more solo centric , easiler end-game mmo is being make.

2) New generations also demand more instant gratifications, thats why we have things like fast food, faster connections etc..

So another No.

 

Ultimately, imo,  for a mmo to be able to survive, it needs not only to break free from the countless of drones we've seen and yet be able to balance between solo and easy grouping, yet at the saem time brings back those sandbox elements .

I.E a themepark/sandbox mmo...

 

 

RIP Orc Choppa

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

8/30/12 12:17:49 PM#30
Hopefully, as I'm far more interested in Group/Cooperative based play. I certainly think we will AT SOME POINT....as tastes seem to go in cycles. I'm sure at some point a significant title will decided to try to appeal to those that enjoy group/cooperative oriented play more....the simple question is WHEN.
  Kraylor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/05/12
Posts: 95

8/30/12 12:21:46 PM#31

Check out The Repopulation

 

It is an Indie game, and I know there are a lot of people who don't believe an Indie developer can create anything good, but at least check out the videos and the forums. 

 

1.  Open world, only instancing is the starting tutorial.  No BGs, no instanced dungeons.  There will be open world dungeons.

2.  Open world Housing with city sieges

3.  Player economy, not a gear treadmill.  People can be full time crafters if they want to.

 

I can't say for certain how solo friendly it will be, but the developers have old school MMO in mind and taking many many design cues from those games.

Waiting on: The Repopulation

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1127

8/30/12 12:38:25 PM#32
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Venger

When they stop using the broke ass holy trinity formula for grouping, punishing people that aren't withing a few levels, get rid of group cap, stop making grouping such an elitest "learn to play" douche bag fest I'm sure we will see more group oriented games.

 

I'd like playing with people but the way grouping is set up no thank I'll stick with the solo friendly games.

There's nothing wrong with the holy trinity formula.  Some of the best group-oriented games have used it.  The problem is the current incarnation of it has been dumbed down because they've done away with the "control" part of the dps arm of the trinity.  There used to be a time when crowd control specialists were as important to the group as healers and tanks...you simply couldn't function effectively without one. 

 

Thing is I never remembered any of that in MMOs I played because I don't do high level raid content. Every MMO I've played in the past gear never mattered, your class combo never really mattered as long as you had at least one tank and one healer and your spec never mattered. Even in PVP when I play I never feel like I need the uber purples to compete or my class sucks.

The only people who seem to complain are whiners who will always complain about PVP balance even though there might not be anything wrong and raiders. I just think if you don't like raiding then don't raid lol. I've done one or two in the past and had a blast but I've never felt like I've missed out by not doing one because if I don't have the will or the time to do it then it's down to me and I get over it.

Dev's shouldn't listen to forum whiners because they just want everything right away and not have to play the game achieve something. I bet most players don't care if they're not raiding, they never get to that point to even care. 

  Nadia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11575

8/30/12 12:42:39 PM#33
Originally posted by tixylix

Before EQ2 got turned into another SOE WoW clone you couldn't progress through that game solo. Even from the Starter Isle they got you to group up several times and then the last quest objective you needed a group. Then once you got into the city quest zones half the mobs were grouped and you needed to group for most of it. Once you got to CL and Antonica you needed a group, unless you liked grinding for days waiting for solo mobs to get one level then you HAD to group. It was an amazing experience and one of the best grouping games out there and most of the quests were more than just "kill 10 rats" which for it's time when WoW basically invented quest based levelling, that was a really kool thing.

i agree w you that EQ2 should have stayed more "group orientated" for fun

I still enjoy EQ2 but i miss the Launch version of the game

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

8/30/12 12:59:01 PM#34

groupsize is the problem.

change it to 3 from 6-8 and youll find this highly agreeable to players these days.

it also doesnt hurt that 2-3 man content could probbally be soloed by skilled players.

 

  Ban_Khaeros

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/12
Posts: 27

8/30/12 1:51:44 PM#35

LF QL8 tank for Hell Fallen, pst

 

Necro MM 4/4 t1 w/ t1 weapon for AM

 

r7 LF r-spike

 

Need healer for vault, be geared, pst

 

3 dps for NM Ankh be 2000 ap+

 

 

Now take that, and multiply it by however many quests you have in your game.

 

Then answer the title question.

 

inb4 'But the trinity is causing it!'  Wrong.  I'll just switch my requirement to having a certain amount of attack power, or [insert stat here].

 

inb4 'But gear disparity is causing it!'  Then I'll base it around some value that determines someone's experience with the content.  Link achievement, what tier / quality level / level / skill level / whatever.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

8/30/12 2:42:05 PM#36

I'll also note something "Group Oriented/Cooperative Play" does NOT have to equal the same way that EQ or WoW have traditionaly done Group Content.

"Group Oriented" does NOT mean you have to take a specific limited number of players out of the main world and off into thier own little world to "do content". It does NOT even mean you have to have a mechanical association of players in the game called a "group"...one that you are invited to and exclude other people from participating in.

It simply means that in order to succeed in the game and do well, you must coordinate your activities with other players and work/interact with them.

If you look at them, most multi-player FPS (Battlefield, etc) games are actualy highly "Group Oriented". To the point that they even have vehicles that require multiple players to fully control. Sure you can spawn in, ignore everyone else on your side,  don't communicate with anyone and go off and do your own thing.  However, if most of the people on your side are doing that and the other side isn't...you are going to get rolled and rolled badly.

In order to do well, you have to play as a team, communicate with those on your side and work together to achieve common goals (defeating the enemy). The more you communicate, coordinate your actions and work together...the better you are likely to do. Even if you aren't part of a "squad" or any such thing in the game and aren't actively communicating with other players, you are generaly basing your own actions off what your team-mates are doing and trying to work with them to some degree in an unspoken fashion. The guys who actively communicate, do even better. The guys who try to coordinate so they have a good mix of soldier types and equipment for the situation do even better. The guys who actualy play together on a repeated basis so they know how each other reacts and possibly even have some sort of formal organization (guild, clan, etc) do yet even better.

Guess what multi-player FPS games ARE widely popular....probably even more so then MMO's. Thier players seem to have no problem with the idea that teamwork and playing cooperatively with others is an important key to success in those games. Many of them do it on a regular basis and they have alot of fun doing so. An MMO which emulated those aspects of group oriented play from FPS games definately has the potential to do well.

The idea that "group oriented" play can't be popular or mass market is pure bunk. It's sold based on a particular concept or style of "group oriented" play that people have come to associated with traditional MMO's.....a style that isn't even all that "group oriented" or "cooperative" to begin with in fact. It's also sold because it's FAR EASIER for developers to design solo based games rather then work out good mechanisms for cooperative play...so it's what they try to push, whats EASY FOR THEM TO MAKE.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for MMO's in terms of cooperative play....especialy ones that feature significant PvP. Clearly games like EvE or PS2 can have an effect on the gamespace.

 

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2776

8/30/12 2:45:09 PM#37

huh?

 

Solo friendly is not the same as solo oriented.  The only solo oriented content of GW2 is the story mode. 

 

All I know is if someone makes an MMO that doesn't let me reach the end level through solo play, I almost certainly won't try or buy it.  It would have a huge population with quick group finders, otherwise I'm not wasting my time sitting in a game waiting for a group.  

  Loktofeit

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

8/30/12 2:46:49 PM#38
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Guess what multi-player FPS games ARE widely popular....probably even more so then MMO's. Thier players seem to have no problem with the idea that teamwork and playing cooperatively with others is an important key to success in those games. Many of them do it on a regular basis and they have alot of fun doing so. An MMO which emulated those aspects of group oriented play from FPS games definately has the potential to do well.

Classes and level disparity are the two walls to achieving such a goal. GW removes both in their PVP.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kost

Newshound

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 2017

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.

8/30/12 2:48:14 PM#39
God I hope not.
  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/30/12 2:50:31 PM#40

Sadly, GW2 is probably as close as we'll get to seeing a AAA MMORPG embrace being an MMO again.

Even though all singleplayer styled MMOs have failed over the years, more publishers will keep trying them.

Vanguard was the last AAA MMO to embrace it.

 

Originally posted by Kost
God I hope not.

Go play a singleplayer game, troll.

 

Originally posted by maji
MMORPGs are for the masses. The masses don't want to be forced to look for other people to team up with.

You say that, but games like SWTOR, Rift, AoC, are all horrible failures mainly BECAUSE they're solo oriented.

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