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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » With the Failure of New AAA Titles, Why Not Just Re-Skin. Re-Boot One of the Classics?

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87 posts found
  SethiusX

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 169

8/29/12 12:33:42 PM#21
Originally posted by Serignuad
Originally posted by Purutzil
Originally posted by Serignuad
Originally posted by Purutzil
Because, if that happened, even if they were brand new today they would fail. None of the classics would do any good today, heck, I'd bet a lot of them would be considered failures no matter how much we loved them. 

And yet people are still playing them 13 years later.

Its called Nostalgia. It allows us to come back and play even the worst game just since when we use to play it, we found such joy in playing it. Its something humans have that will make us come back to watching movies over and over. 

 

Take a look at the movies. So many remakes have come out over time. I'll bet you someone who had seen the original will likely find preference in the original, while another who never was around for the original will claim the newer version was better in most cases.

 

Take a look at silent films. With sound being around, do you really feel like you can like a silent movie so much more then one with sound? 

I absolutely loved the remake of True Grit and 3:10 to Yuma and I payed Box Office prices and bought popcorn and a soda at  concession stand prices ;)

The fact that Hollywood thinks that it can make money off remaking movies that whole generations have already seen, seems like a bit of proof that there would be merit to the idea of re-skinning and re-booting one of these classic MMOs.

 

 

I think re-makes like they do in hollywood would work well, which is that they take the original and attempt to improve upon it (this doesn't always work in hollywood either).

Re-skins, which would be just upgrading the graphics and nothing else would probably not work. One reason is because those games are actually better in our memories than they actually were.

Another reason is because the mmo market is much bigger today than it used to be and nostalgia alone would only apply to a smallish percentage of current mmo players, which would be a very small number compared to what companies want to achieve now days.

Remember, players like us that played and loved the old classics are not the mmo makers main target. We are the minority. MMO companies that hope to get millions and millions of players are looking at attracting the post-WoW crowd more than us, simply because their isn't millions and millions of us that played the classics. And frankly, you can't blame them, they are companies and making money is their primary reason for existence, regardless of what they say.

EQ1 had around 450k subs at its peak, so if they re-skinned EQ1 for example, nostalgia would only apply to those players, and even then many of them might not want to replay the same game for long. I believe this is a risk game makers don't want to take. It's a sad world for mmo players that long for the old days.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18934

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/29/12 12:40:03 PM#22

I missed most of the classic MMO's, joining in time to catch DAOC in its prime and missing out on the rest.

I'd gladly pay to play them all in a more modern setting, but I suspect I'm in the niche market once again.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Serignuad

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/05
Posts: 86

 
OP  8/29/12 12:48:09 PM#23

I definitely agree with the idea of making improvements. It's why I use the phrase re-boot as well. There are a lot of features that MMO players, including myself, just have come to expect as standard.

 

Still, you don't want to be completely innovative and "improve" everything, else you are just be making the next Asherons Call 2 or Everquest 2... not necessarily a bad thing, but too much and you aren't re-making the original, you are writing the sequel. 

 

  Hodo

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/08
Posts: 559

8/29/12 12:48:49 PM#24
Originally posted by firefly2003
I would like to see a reboot of Star Wars Galaxies with updated graphics and none of the features removed that made it great.

Wont happen because the title is still out there and being run by another group of individuals.   I cant talk about it here becuase they have rules against mentioning it.   But if you cant figure it out you shouldnt be playing online anyway. 

 

To the OP, there is no point in reskinning old games and rereleasing them.   EA did that with UO a few years ago and its been trundling along poorly for the past few years, other versions of the game pre-tramel are doing well but EA doesnt own those. 

 

IF you want to play an old game then all you have to do is look most of the hugely successful ones ended up being run on indipendant servers around the world.   Most are bugged to no end and barely have anyone who play but they are out there.  

 

The best thing that can happen to the MMO market right now is that 95% of these fly by night games die, and we see some developers with some balls step up and start taking chances again.  

 

Everquest, Asherons Call, and Ultima Online were all gambles, and they worked.  

So much crap, so little quality.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2434

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

8/29/12 12:51:13 PM#25
Originally posted by Serignuad

With the failure (relative to their expectations) of several recent AAA titles where companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into brand new and untested products, when will someone finally have the gumption to try re-skinning and re-leasing one of the first generation of MMO classics?

 

1. Asherons Call

2. EQ

3. DAOC

4. UO

5. AO

6. Others

 

I for one would pay the usual AAA prices for re-skinned versions of 1-3 and I fully believe there are probably millions of people that would do likewise.

 

Yes, re-skinning the first-generation of hard-coded games would involve new engines and a lot of work, but I also remain convinced it can be done much quicker and cheaper than starting up a new MMO.

 

Sure, maybe we first generation MMOers are remembering the trials and tribulations of our first loves through rose-colored glasses (or bulky CRTs if you want to be literal:) but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't flock to hand over our money to find out the hardway that our expectations have moved on. But I actually think that membership retention would be far greater than the current generation(s) of water-treading MMO titles despite reality not living up to nostalgia.

 

Everyone has their Lottery dream, I buy a Power Ball ticket every week in the hopes of calling up Turbine and asking how much they would sell me Asherons Call for. I'd be glad to put my as-of-yet unwon money where my mouth is ;)

 

 

EDIT:  By re-skin I also include updating animations to modern expectations (or beyond). Even AAA titles seem to put a strange lack of emphasis on animations, TSW for example.

 

I'd love a reskin of UO, if they could do it right. They tried once with 3d and it was so terrible. AC1 would be another dream. These two would definately be good if they were redone.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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Dark Age of Camelot

  trenshod

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/11
Posts: 129

8/29/12 12:54:44 PM#26
I don't think making a old game look prettier is a solution. There is a reason why people left the game and to just push out the same game but nicier looking isn't going to change that. WoW is living proof that a game is based more on content than looks alone.
  Serignuad

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/05
Posts: 86

 
OP  8/29/12 12:56:31 PM#27
Originally posted by Hodo
The best thing that can happen to the MMO market right now is that 95% of these fly by night games die, and we see some developers with some balls step up and start taking chances again.  

 Everquest, Asherons Call, and Ultima Online were all gambles, and they worked.  

 

And yet, not a single company has had the balls to step up and take the chance on re-skinning one of the original games.

Would Turbine make money if they spent 50 million dollars re-booting Asherons Call with modern graphics? 

Theres your gamble.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/29/12 1:16:10 PM#28

We've been asking for that, for a long long time.

 

Problem is, publishers are too stupid to realize how to make a good MMO and they currently control the genre.

Mythic was working on a DAoC classic server and a DAoC 2. EA canned it.

EA also canned work on UO2.

SoE made an EQ classic server, and its their most populated and popular server.

AC... Turbine lost almost every staff member with a brain in the transition between AC2 and MIddle Earth Online to LotRo and DDO.

 

All the great minds that made these games have left. Now publishers are in charge, and if they tried to reskin the old games, they'd "tinker" and "improve".

It's best that they're left dead.

  Serignuad

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/05
Posts: 86

 
OP  8/29/12 1:17:23 PM#29
Originally posted by trenshod
I don't think making a old game look prettier is a solution. There is a reason why people left the game and to just push out the same game but nicier looking isn't going to change that. WoW is living proof that a game is based more on content than looks alone.

 

Wow's graphics are still "modern".

I'm not a big fan of the cartoony look, but in choosing to go with that style, Blizzard showed its genius. Those types of graphics age very well.

But then again, I'm the first to acknowledge Wows use of color and landscaping design is simply gorgeous, even today. They had or have some real talent in that department. They also do a stellar job in creating atmosphere by various means, music, design look etc..

But I dare-say that even Wow wouldn't be successful if it was using EQ graphics. 

 

And don't make the mistake of thinking that Wow is that much more content rich than some of these aging Classics we are talking about ;)

  Vrika

Elite Member

Joined: 10/03/05
Posts: 2019

8/29/12 1:19:17 PM#30

Minecraft.

If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

8/29/12 1:20:18 PM#31
WHile i would love the idea happening. it wouldnt work, The casual crowd now has majority rule and would likely ruin the game. We are part of the few who havent left yet, it sucks i know if you look at the posts asking for DAOC its usually the same people. the current MMO market has shown that when freedom is given freely. Chaos Ensues.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  lathaan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/04
Posts: 475

8/29/12 1:22:01 PM#32
There were no Mmo's prior to GW2 - only crap. We just learned that the last days ;)
  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/29/12 1:34:57 PM#33
Originally posted by Vrika

Minecraft.

If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

 

But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

 

Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

8/29/12 1:39:33 PM#34
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Vrika

Minecraft.

If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

 

But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

 

Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

I cant blame the companies though. you have to blame the community. Imagine one of these game being released with the current community. They would ruin the game, Too many people went from Call of Duty to this who think that just because you have a sword in your hand everything that crosses you must die.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2332

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

8/29/12 1:48:33 PM#35
Originally posted by Kyleran

I missed most of the classic MMO's, joining in time to catch DAOC in its prime and missing out on the rest.

I'd gladly pay to play them all in a more modern setting, but I suspect I'm in the niche market once again.

 

I also never got to play a few of the classics (UO and DAoC).

So I'd gladly try them out as remakes.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1089

8/29/12 2:32:17 PM#36
Originally posted by Tibernicus

We've been asking for that, for a long long time.

 

Problem is, publishers are too stupid to realize how to make a good MMO and they currently control the genre.

Mythic was working on a DAoC classic server and a DAoC 2. EA canned it.

EA also canned work on UO2.

SoE made an EQ classic server, and its their most populated and popular server.

AC... Turbine lost almost every staff member with a brain in the transition between AC2 and MIddle Earth Online to LotRo and DDO.

 

All the great minds that made these games have left. Now publishers are in charge, and if they tried to reskin the old games, they'd "tinker" and "improve".

It's best that they're left dead.

This.  This exactly.

 

This is what i've been trying to articulate for so many years when i talk about artistic integrity within the gaming industry.

The problem is at some point making money hand over fist became priority number 1.  Now, people talk about "well they're a business, thats what they're supposed to do",  and frankly thats a load of shite.  There are plenty of examples where very succesful business (that are still successful) refuse to make changes to their practices on the basis of integrity, despite the fact that it would increase their profits.

There is a great interview with a prominent old school developer where he is talking about how he was at a meeting and was messing with a small game he was writing for android that he was doing just for fun, and the guy sitting next to him saw it and wanted to play it.  So he let the guy mess with it for a few minutes and the guy said basically "wow, this is great, lots of fun... whats your monetization strategy?"  He basically said to the guy "I dont have one, im making the game, and if other people like and buy it, cool!"

Back in the day of the original MMO's those guys set out to make a game first, and money second.  Hell, the entire gaming industry with the exception of things like Madden or FIFA or something like that where they release a rehashed one every year was like that.  You made a game that you wanted to make according to your principals, and then you hope that the gaming community agrees and resultantly buys your product.

Now, they try to pull the same shit the recording industry or movie industry does and try to follow "formulas" that are "proven revenue streams", etc.   Thats why they're pushing F2P so hard, they think its going to make them a crap ton of money.  The worst part is that gamers have drank the koolaid and read the proaganda and think that F2P is a good thing for them.  It literally makes me sick to my stomach.  SWTOR is basically the MMO equivalent of Justin Bieber.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/29/12 3:08:54 PM#37
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Vrika

Minecraft.

If a game is good enough, it does not need re-skinning or re-launching. Fact is, those old classics are not good enough for today's audience.

They don't need to be good enough for "today's audience". Today's audience in many ways seems smaller than the old audiences. No AAA MMO has managed to retain subscriptions as long as the older MMOs. There's millions of veteran MMO gamers that'd happily return to the old MMOs, if they were still there.

 

But that's the thing most people don't seem to realize. Classic DAoC is gone. Classic UO is gone. Classic EQ is gone.

We can't access them. The games have changed over the years,and each one of them has introduced some big change that drove away their core players (DAoC, SWG), or gradually changed the game to the point it didn't look like itself anymore (UO, EQ)

If DAoC launched a classic server that rolled back the rules to the SI days (which they were planning, called DAoC Origins, and had a couple hundred thousand signed up for it, but EA canned it) I'd be there right now.

 

Those old MMOs are far FAR better than most modern day garbage.

I cant blame the companies though. you have to blame the community. Imagine one of these game being released with the current community. They would ruin the game, Too many people went from Call of Duty to this who think that just because you have a sword in your hand everything that crosses you must die.

I will absolutely blame the companies. They haven't put out the game, so we can't really see if modern gamers would "ruin" the experience. There are enough MMO vets around anyway to the point where you don't need any modern coD kiddies to stay afloat.

  Quirhid

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5506

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

8/29/12 3:10:05 PM#38

Like some have already said, it wouldn't work. Mainly because these games do not exist in a vacuum. They are affected by their times and made for the players of their time. We are not the same people anymore and the market is far from what it was.

Many of the old MMOs were popular simply because players had very little options. Rose-tinted glasses have a strong effect when looking back too.

I'm quite confident that if any of the old MMOs was reskinned and released again, they would "fail" as you say. But people say  "fail" just because some games didn't meet their preferences. I say fail in the meaning: it would be a  financial disaster.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3728

RIP City of Heroes!

8/29/12 3:11:28 PM#39
Originally posted by Loke666

It wouldnt work. We are not really the same people as we were back then and frankly do I think they could do all those games a lot better.

I think a lot of old players are wearing rose colored glasses when they think about those old games. Sure, I had a great deal of fun back then and I loved the sense of community but just reskinning them would not be good.

If you on the other way took one of those gams (like AC) and thought how you would improve it and make it more fun you might get a winner. Stop looking just on what everyone else are doing right now and actually think out new fun mechanics for yourself.

Those games were so great because they all did their own thing. Reskinning old stuff would be the opposite of what needs to be done.

I would go further back and start where CCP is right now: back to translating a P&P game to a MMO (and not just stealing a little of the world but implementing mechanics as well). 

The genre started with new thinking devs, reskinning old stuff is so far from what made games like M59, UO and AC great as you can get.

Not to forget that UO didn't have to compete with many other mmorpg choices that players have today.  I think it would sell based on the glory of it's name but not much beyond that.

  centkin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/10
Posts: 785

8/29/12 3:28:01 PM#40

I don't know -- I mean if someone came out with an asheron's call three with very similar mechanics to what they had in AC1 along with better graphics etc and followed it up with true monthly updates like they used to have, I think it would do well -- not WoW well, but I think that kind of sandbox done right could hit the million mark in today's market.

I always cringe when I see someone use AC3 and they mean assassin's creed.  It is trampling on memories.

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