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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Good...until combat. Dumbed down so much.

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144 posts found
  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/28/12 1:47:31 AM#61
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by TheScavenger

Originally posted by heartless OP, what is the highest level character you have?
I got to level 10, before realizing I didn't like the combat at all. Usually I know if I like combat or the game within 10 levels of a MMO.   Like in WoW, I loved the combat right off the bat. Got pets right in the beginning as a hunter and warlock. Paladin smashed everything in its path right at level 1. Warrior rushed enemiees. And it only became better when there was so many abilities just at level 10. Like as a warrior at level 10, I had so many abilities to choose from.   Or a better example (because its newer). At level 1 as a Jedi Consular in SWTOR...I had so many amazing abilities (comparitevly), and just after the first area...I had so much strategy in the combat. There wasn't just pressing one key over and over.   Not to say GW2 is bad and I don't like it. Just combat isn't its strong suit. Guild Wars (the first one) was a lot better, even if it wasn't filled with many hotbars of abilities.
In other words you're basing your opinion on combat during the tutorial phase.
  Yeah, could not see you setting that argument up a mile away. btw. Your out of the "tutorial phase by lvl 2. rest is the GAME.
Are you really going to try to argue that the level 1-15 areas - IOW the starter areas - are really "the GAME"? .
  After your first inital boss fight and the leaving of that area Yes. I would also like to point out that 2 of the major arguemnts thrown around "here" are. 1. End game start at lvl 1 2. Levels don't mean much.
1.  Sure it does, you still have to learn how to play it.   2.  Levels don't mean much when compared to other players, or when going back to an area lower level than you.  But even your argument allows that they mean something.  That something is to give you time to learn the ins and outs of the game before the shit hits the fan.
  And the first (and core) part of my argument? I'm sorry mate, But nothing fundamentally changes with the combat throughout the game. Attacking someone because "there only level 10" is a weak argument, they will be going though the same basic combat motions their entire game career. Push buttons Avoid Damage Release aggro
The encounters become progressively more difficult in higher level zones, requiring a more intimate knowledge of your class and various game mechanics. I thought that it would be pretty obvious?

 

Are you disagreeing that if someone 'mitigated damage properly' they could win any encounter by bashing the 1 button?

Pretty simple logic:

While Health not 0
{
alive.
}

 

How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/28/12 1:49:40 AM#62


Originally posted by heartless
How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?

Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing.

The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  maji

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 1821

8/28/12 1:49:57 AM#63
MMORPGs that want to be successful these days have to be dumbed down. Otherwise they would make the masses they aim at feel stupid, and then they'd run off.

Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  dariuszp

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 187

8/28/12 1:50:47 AM#64
Originally posted by TheScavenger

Combat feels more dumbed down than it was in DCU.

 

Why? It isn't because you aren't standing still and using strategic key pressing (which is mentally challenging, and why I like it so much)...but...

 

Even DCU (DC Universe) had mana and stamina. In GW2...what happened to the stamina and mana bar? You press the one key over and over and over...there is no strategy. It doesn't matter what weapon(s) I have equipped, I just kill everything by pressing one key. On top of that, unlike other MMOs (like DCU) where this is possible...I don't even have to worry about stamina or mana. Which EVERY MMO has. This isn't even a real MMO. There is just no strategy to the combat. It has been dumbed down so much.

 

Anyone else find they really miss the stamina/mana bar? At least that would add strategy, instead of hitting the one key repeatedly.

Do you know sentence "Easy to learn - hard to master" ? PVE combat is easy as long as you stay around mobs of your lvl. Want something challenging ? Try to kill mobs above your lvl or some "elite mobs". For one I got around 400 or 4000 (don't remember) exp when I solo him. At my lvl I usually get 15 exp +bonus per mob so you understand right ?

How I killed that mob ? I dodge his attacks, I dealt a lot of damage and I used lot of skills that throw enemy of ballance, stun them or push them back. I used dodge when I could and when I saw hard hit comming (they usually charge very strong attacks) and when my dodge was off I used crowd control.

Same with PVP. Combine your weapon with right skills to match your oponent. You have many skills + traits and you can only choose some of them. There is a big difference. I like GW2 combat because I played a lot DCUO and TERA - both with true action oriented combat.

Trick is - game is easy on PVE just like GW2 is for me so I stay in the areas above my current lvl. And in PVP you show your true colors. In TERA I was able to take down players above my lvl. In DCUO people were thinking like you so I ended up defeating people even 12 lvl above me just because I was able to combine healing, crowd control and attacks in right way. In DCUO sometimes I won 2 vs 1 against me.

Trust me - combat is fine. It can be seen by amateurs as something simple but it's not. And lack of stamina/mana is simple - GW2 is oriented around group fighting and not 1vs1. In 1vs1 stamina and mana are important. One must build some resource to attack strong and some go all out and then loose power. In group fighting it would end up with everyone using basic attack or doing some stupid "rotations" while they could use skills according to situation. 

By removing this reasources and add one - stamina for dodge - you can fight for a long period of time and have fun in large scale battles. And in GW2 you only have large scale stuff. Events are not design for 1 people or short duels (except some challenges). Same with World vs World vs World etc.

  gwei1984

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/12
Posts: 297

8/28/12 1:52:18 AM#65
Well, i'm not very far into the whole game right now, but i dont think the combat is too dumbed down. It seems easy to learn in pve, but should be hard to master especially in pvp. Looking forward to that.

Playing: TSW, SWTOR, FM2013

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/28/12 1:55:38 AM#66
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by heartless
How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?

 

Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing.

The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.

Have you played the game? Be honest.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/28/12 1:56:26 AM#67


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.

Yes heartless.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/28/12 1:58:48 AM#68
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.

 

Yes heartless.

So which consumables are you talking about then?

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/28/12 2:02:39 AM#69


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.
  Yes heartless.
So which consumables are you talking about then?

What ever is obtainable, Crafted for example.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/28/12 2:15:37 AM#70
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.
  Yes heartless.
So which consumables are you talking about then?

 

What ever is obtainable, Crafted for example.

Mobs in 20+ zones do a lot of AoE attacks that pack a serious punch. I'm not talking about regular cannon fodder mobs or even veteran mobs, I'm talking about champions and bosses. You know the mobs that actually matter. Your tactic may look good on paper, and would make sense, if your experience with GW2 was limited to the first 10-15 levels but afterwards it rarely works that way. Especially since there are always respawns and adds.

So yea, I'd like for you to try that tactic against the Blood Witch in Kessex or even the Fire Elemental in Metrica Province.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/28/12 2:18:50 AM#71


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.
  Yes heartless.
So which consumables are you talking about then?
  What ever is obtainable, Crafted for example.
Mobs in 20+ zones do a lot of AoE attacks that pack a serious punch. I'm not talking about regular cannon fodder mobs or even veteran mobs, I'm talking about champions and bosses. You know the mobs that actually matter. Your tactic may look good on paper, and would make sense, if your experience with GW2 was limited to the first 10-15 levels but afterwards it rarely works that way. Especially since there are always respawns and adds.

So yea, I'd like for you to try that tactic against the Blood Witch in Kessex or even the Fire Elemental in Metrica Province.


Don't shift gears and say this wont work for the "harder than average 20+ mobs"

btw, if you tried this in group DE's this can and will work.

-------------

All this aside, I love complex combat systems. - just don't believe that combat drasticly changes from the first 10 hours to 100 hours.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  wowfan1996

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/09
Posts: 741

8/28/12 2:22:15 AM#72
Originally posted by TheScavenger

You press the one key over and over and over...there is no strategy.

Dear OP, I'm sorry to say this but if you think you mastered GW2 combat by pressing one key over and over you should just pick a 1-on-1 fight in any PvP location. You'll see the game isn't nearly as dumbed down as it might seem.

This reminds me... Once I met a girl who played hunter in vanilla WoW. She somehow got to 60 practically using just auto-attack. Me and my friends thought she was hopeless, she would never learn to play. But we were wrong. I saw her again - a year later - and she was PvP rank 13 doing all kinds of tricks and amazing things.

You'll learn too.

 

MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  tom_gore

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1789

8/28/12 2:26:07 AM#73
Originally posted by teakbois

The number of people I've revived in the last two days seems to indicate combat isnt as dumbed down as op likes to think it is.

This.

And I have to admit I've been on the ground more than once myself.

Let the OP keep mashing his one button (not even figuring out it can be set to auto-attack) and see how far that will take him :)

 

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/28/12 2:27:52 AM#74
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by heartless How do you mitigate damage properly in GW2?
  Positioning and dodging are a forms of mitigation, As well as consumables and Self healing. The basic mechanics you are taught and use at lvl 1.
Have you played the game? Be honest.
  Yes heartless.
So which consumables are you talking about then?
  What ever is obtainable, Crafted for example.
Mobs in 20+ zones do a lot of AoE attacks that pack a serious punch. I'm not talking about regular cannon fodder mobs or even veteran mobs, I'm talking about champions and bosses. You know the mobs that actually matter. Your tactic may look good on paper, and would make sense, if your experience with GW2 was limited to the first 10-15 levels but afterwards it rarely works that way. Especially since there are always respawns and adds.

 

So yea, I'd like for you to try that tactic against the Blood Witch in Kessex or even the Fire Elemental in Metrica Province.


 

Don't shift gears and say this wont work for the "harder than average 20+ mobs"

btw, if you tried this in group DE's this can and will work.

I'm not shifting gears. I've been saying this since the very beginning. Combat is more difficult in higher level zones. Mobs, even regular ones, have more health, crowd control and do more damage and very often come in groups. For example, 1 attack from an normal ettin takes away about 1/3 of my thief's HP. They also have a pretty lengthy knockdown as well. Now imagine trying to fight 2 or 3 of them at a time. Either way, champions and bosses would be impossible to kill with what you're suggesting. Even the higher level ones in the 1-15 zones.

As far as what can and will work, I think you actually need to make it to those zones before you can make that determination. If encounters were so easy that a few dodges and self heals was all that was required, no one would be dying and yet, higher level zones = corpses everywere.

  Tenjou

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 20

8/28/12 2:28:54 AM#75
OP create level2 character and go sPvP, so you will get impression about how hard or easy is combat system. Personaly I got overwhelmed by number of abilities and using them accordingly.
  tom_gore

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1789

8/28/12 2:29:03 AM#76
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

10?!

 

Come on OP.

Get deep into the game, 30+, then you'll realize why people like it.

yeah, every MMO I can tell before level 10 if I like combat or not. WoW gave me tons of stuff before level 10, and TONS of stuff at level 10. Same with SWTOR and a lot of other MMOs.

 

It isn't the worst combat in a MMO though, it is just really dumbed down. No mana or stamina...the staple of all RPGs is missing. Can't get more dumbed down than that. Even DCU, they made it where it regenned fast...but you still had to manage it.

 

I dunno. I just leveled a mage from 1 to 85 in WoW and did not stop once to drink for more mana. Also you can actually do that with three abilities (arcane mage).

 

 

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5744

8/28/12 2:33:04 AM#77
dungeons are somewhat fun.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

8/28/12 2:36:37 AM#78


Originally posted by heartless
I'm not shifting gears. I've been saying this since the very beginning. Combat is more difficult in higher level zones. Mobs, even regular ones, have more health, crowd control and do more damage and very often come in groups. For example, 1 attack from an normal ettin takes away about 1/3 of my thief's HP. They also have a pretty lengthy knockdown as well. Now imagine trying to fight 2 or 3 of them at a time. Either way, champions and bosses would be impossible to kill with what you're suggesting. Even the higher level ones in the 1-15 zones.

As far as what can and will work, I think you actually need to make it to those zones before you can make that determination. If encounters were so easy that a few dodges and self heals was all that was required, no one would be dying and yet, higher level zones = corpses everywere.


Your saying the encounters are changed, but the actual combat mechanics stays the same.
If you have more health than the mobs, You win.

As for this 1 button mashing business, I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard, Im just saying if someone wanted to do that it would be plausible under certain circumstances.


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  impiro

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/06/09
Posts: 214

8/28/12 2:39:17 AM#79
Originally posted by Nitth

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All this aside, I love complex combat systems. - just don't believe that combat drasticly changes from the first 10 hours to 100 hours.

I dont even..... are you serious? You realize that after level 10 you inlock 3 new ability slots, and you have to spent skill points to get certain abilities. Trust me, after lvl 10-ish (the next zone) all your abilities have to be used and USED AT THE RIGHT TIME that is. The mobs in the starting area do less dmg and have less abilities so that people can learn the basics of GW2's combat. But after that you really have to time your abilities if you want to survive even in 1vs1 encounters.

The mechanics of the combat may not drastically change, the way it played does. Ofcourse the mechanics do not change complete after the starter zone. But more variables are added to the mix and the way it is executed differs a lot!

  Indrome

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/12
Posts: 294

This is like trying to drive straight through Schroedinger's minefield!

8/28/12 2:40:44 AM#80
redacted

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