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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The beginning of the end of freemium/subscription/cash shop era ?

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  User Deleted
 
OP  8/25/12 6:05:03 AM#1
With Guild Wars 2 to be released soon I would think many other developers are watching it with interest . It appears that it will be the best selling mmo since Warcraft and have a long lasting impact on the mmo genre .If it does as well as expected then I imagine we will see a lot more buy to games flood the market in the coming years . This will inevitably mark the decline of subscription based games . For instance if you play something like WoW for a year it will cost you roughly 5 times what it costs you to play GW2 . Buy to play games will allow you to play multiple mmos without the worry of hitting the wall in freemium games , paying a monthly fee or having to spend money in a cash shop . Its clear they will be popular because of this . I don't think freemium/subs/cash shop based games will disapear overnight but I do think ten years time they will be few and far between . Even though Guild Wars1 was released a few years ago I think its this coming week that marks the true begining of the buy to play era . 
  Agricola1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 5041

"The one you call messiah is a lie"--- Gary Numan

8/25/12 6:52:01 AM#2
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"

CS Lewis

  Wicoa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1613

8/25/12 6:54:56 AM#3
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yep and the server in the s v s v s pvp with the richest people irl willing to invest in the game will win.

  MMOwanderer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/12
Posts: 417

8/25/12 7:23:58 AM#4
Originally posted by roo67
With Guild Wars 2 to be released soon I would think many other developers are watching it with interest . It appears that it will be the best selling mmo since Warcraft and have a long lasting impact on the mmo genre .If it does as well as expected then I imagine we will see a lot more buy to games flood the market in the coming years . This will inevitably mark the decline of subscription based games . For instance if you play something like WoW for a year it will cost you roughly 5 times what it costs you to play GW2 . Buy to play games will allow you to play multiple mmos without the worry of hitting the wall in freemium games , paying a monthly fee or having to spend money in a cash shop . Its clear they will be popular because of this . I don't think freemium/subs/cash shop based games will disapear overnight but I do think ten years time they will be few and far between . Even though Guild Wars1 was released a few years ago I think its this coming week that marks the true begining of the buy to play era . 

How about we wait 3 months after launch?

You also forget that it's not just now much you sell, but how much money you make. For that, we better wait for te NCsoft financial report.

Pretty sure right now companies like Blizzard (P2P) and Nexon (F2P) are making more.

  Sythion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 427

8/25/12 7:27:25 AM#5
Originally posted by Wicoa
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yep and the server in the s v s v s pvp with the richest people irl willing to invest in the game will win.

good thing they aren't making the server with only the richest people irl on it.

  RPGPhreek

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 7

8/25/12 7:29:58 AM#6
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by roo67
With Guild Wars 2 to be released soon I would think many other developers are watching it with interest . It appears that it will be the best selling mmo since Warcraft and have a long lasting impact on the mmo genre .If it does as well as expected then I imagine we will see a lot more buy to games flood the market in the coming years . This will inevitably mark the decline of subscription based games . For instance if you play something like WoW for a year it will cost you roughly 5 times what it costs you to play GW2 . Buy to play games will allow you to play multiple mmos without the worry of hitting the wall in freemium games , paying a monthly fee or having to spend money in a cash shop . Its clear they will be popular because of this . I don't think freemium/subs/cash shop based games will disapear overnight but I do think ten years time they will be few and far between . Even though Guild Wars1 was released a few years ago I think its this coming week that marks the true begining of the buy to play era . 

How about we wait 3 months after launch?

You also forget that it's not just now much you sell, but how much money you make. For that, we better wait for te NCsoft financial report.

Pretty sure right now companies like Blizzard (P2P) and Nexon (F2P) are making more.

Nexon owns a controlling interest in NCSoft (along the lines of 15%)  so they will be worth even more following the launch.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

8/25/12 9:10:37 AM#7
   wayyyy too soon to tell...Not every MMO can be b2p....It will work well for GW2 because its a top notch game...Cash shops wont go away, they bring in alot of money....Freemium has worked well for most of the games that have used it....The way I see it is the more options we consumers have the better.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

8/26/12 12:20:01 PM#8
Originally posted by Wicoa
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yep and the server in the s v s v s pvp with the richest people irl willing to invest in the game will win.

Nothing wrong with that.

The whole Trading Card Game industry is built on P2W. May be finallly it is MMO industry's turn.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/26/12 12:29:24 PM#9
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yes. This thread is rather pointless, as GW2 does indeed have a cash shop.

  comrademario

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/11
Posts: 98

8/27/12 5:14:23 AM#10

If anything it will lead to developers going, 'hey we can get 60 dollars up front for the game and still get them to pay 15 dollers plus a month through the cash shop'. The 'plus' being the key part of that sentence. Don't think there won't be guys dropping 50-100 per month on this game once the CS really gets into full flow.

 

GW2 isn't a charity, despite what some seem to think, and it will use the cash shop to extract as much money as possible from its customers, just as it should do as a business model.

  anemis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/11
Posts: 39

I would rather be hated for who I am than be loved for who I am not.

8/27/12 6:17:32 AM#11
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by roo67
With Guild Wars 2 to be released soon I would think many other developers are watching it with interest . It appears that it will be the best selling mmo since Warcraft and have a long lasting impact on the mmo genre .If it does as well as expected then I imagine we will see a lot more buy to games flood the market in the coming years . This will inevitably mark the decline of subscription based games . For instance if you play something like WoW for a year it will cost you roughly 5 times what it costs you to play GW2 . Buy to play games will allow you to play multiple mmos without the worry of hitting the wall in freemium games , paying a monthly fee or having to spend money in a cash shop . Its clear they will be popular because of this . I don't think freemium/subs/cash shop based games will disapear overnight but I do think ten years time they will be few and far between . Even though Guild Wars1 was released a few years ago I think its this coming week that marks the true begining of the buy to play era . 

How about we wait 3 months after launch?

You also forget that it's not just now much you sell, but how much money you make. For that, we better wait for te NCsoft financial report.

Pretty sure right now companies like Blizzard (P2P) and Nexon (F2P) are making more.

Yeap.. Totally agree with you.. No One can deny it

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18994

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/27/12 6:24:02 AM#12

I still feel a large majority of people playing GW2 are doing so because it's a really well made MMO, and not because of it's payment model.

In the long run, I think people will pay for quality MMO's regardless of the payment model chosen, and in fact, ANET is just using the B2P as their "gimmick", they'd charge sub fees if they wanted to, but not part of their model.

I know in my case I'm happy to pay sub fees if someone would make a MMO designed along the lines of what I favor, I suspect there's quite a few folks like me.

In the future, we'll see all sorts of payment model hybrids, no one form will really dominate. (IMO)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16610

8/27/12 6:30:53 AM#13
Originally posted by Wicoa
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yep and the server in the s v s v s pvp with the richest people irl willing to invest in the game will win.

Not really, the best way to getthose buffs is by playing PvP, not changing gems to gold to influence.

But sure, a crap guild where people play can get the same buffs as a good guild.

On the other hand can a guild getthose buffs by just playing the market as well.

Dont get me wrong, I am not a fan of RMT at all, but if you think all the best guilds will be paying you are just wrong. In my case so far is the 2 things I could see myself buying some more bankslots and char slots. Since the marketplace aint open yet my bank is overfull with crafted stuff I want to sell.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/27/12 6:34:09 AM#14

This thread is why I admire Arenanet's marketing team.

NA/EU still has a number of gamers - very vocal gamers - that publicly dislike item malls (their actual actions in some cases tell a different story). So, how do you put out a Free to Play game in those regions and completely avoid the barrage of  "pay to win" "cash grab" and the other chanted talking points?

Well, someone with a brass pair at Arenanet came up with a great idea:

Charge 60+ dollars for the client and then focus on positioning against the subscription model. By doing so, they received praise from that vocal crowd as a "B2P" MMO and was able to avoid the vast majority of F2P noise while they market their game. It's lunacy, but a beautiful and logical lunacy. Psychologically, a game is better to those players if they have to pay for it, so put a box charge at the front of your free to play game in order for them to accept it.

 

Complete brilliance.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16610

8/27/12 6:35:25 AM#15
Originally posted by Kyleran

I still feel a large majority of people playing GW2 are doing so because it's a really well made MMO, and not because of it's payment model.

In the long run, I think people will pay for quality MMO's regardless of the payment model chosen, and in fact, ANET is just using the B2P as their "gimmick", they'd charge sub fees if they wanted to, but not part of their model.

I know in my case I'm happy to pay sub fees if someone would make a MMO designed along the lines of what I favor, I suspect there's quite a few folks like me.

In the future, we'll see all sorts of payment model hybrids, no one form will really dominate. (IMO)

Agreed. When you play you can see how much work they put into it and I would have played it with monthly fees as well.

People tend to say that TOR do badly because it is P2P and the time for that is over, but the truth is that it just isnt good enough.

If it would be Wow2 releasin tomorrow with P2P, do you guys think people would play it? Of course they would.

And while Im not a Blizzard fan I still have to admit thattheir games have a certain standard and so do GW2. MMOs in general on the other hand are usuall a bit rough on the edges.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16610

8/27/12 6:42:27 AM#16
Originally posted by Loktofeit

This thread is why I admire Arenanet's marketing team.

NA/EU still has a number of gamers - very vocal gamers - that publicly dislike item malls (their actual actions in some cases tell a different story). So, how do you put out a Free to Play game in those regions and completely avoid the barrage of  "pay to win" "cash grab" and the other chanted talking points?

Well, someone with a brass pair at Arenanet came up with a great idea:

Charge 60+ dollars for the client and then focus on positioning against the subscription model. By doing so, they received praise from that vocal crowd as a "B2P" MMO and was able to avoid the vast majority of F2P noise while they market their game. It's lunacy, but a beautiful and logical lunacy. Psychologically, a game is better to those players if they have to pay for it, so put a box charge at the front of your free to play game in order for them to accept it.

Complete brilliance.

That is just bull and you know better.

Anet makes games B2P because Jeff Strain founded the company and he have been the number one B2P promoter since he coded battle.net (which BTW was supposed to be P2P). He quit Blizzard when they refused to let his last project which was a MMO set in the Warcraft IP (you might have heard about) to be B2P.

GW1 didnt had an itemshop at all th first years and as soon as he moved on they suddenly put a whole lot of stuff in the shop which prior only had storage and a skill unlock.

Strains new company Undead labs is working on a B2P MMO called Class 4 (you will hear a lot more about it later).

ANET is however more and more putting stuff into that cashshop and things are not really going in the direction I like but this was not originally made as a scam or anything. Strain is the best lead dev that ever worked for Blizzard and ANET (and he is also a master programmer which means he knows what he can implement and not unlike people like McQuaid).

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

8/27/12 6:43:59 AM#17
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Wicoa
Originally posted by Agricola1
Isn't GW2 going to have a cash shop?

Yep and the server in the s v s v s pvp with the richest people irl willing to invest in the game will win.

Nothing wrong with that.

The whole Trading Card Game industry is built on P2W. May be finallly it is MMO industry's turn.

 The trading card game industry has been moribund for years.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/27/12 8:16:53 AM#18
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Loktofeit

This thread is why I admire Arenanet's marketing team.

NA/EU still has a number of gamers - very vocal gamers - that publicly dislike item malls (their actual actions in some cases tell a different story). So, how do you put out a Free to Play game in those regions and completely avoid the barrage of  "pay to win" "cash grab" and the other chanted talking points?

Well, someone with a brass pair at Arenanet came up with a great idea:

Charge 60+ dollars for the client and then focus on positioning against the subscription model. By doing so, they received praise from that vocal crowd as a "B2P" MMO and was able to avoid the vast majority of F2P noise while they market their game. It's lunacy, but a beautiful and logical lunacy. Psychologically, a game is better to those players if they have to pay for it, so put a box charge at the front of your free to play game in order for them to accept it.

Complete brilliance.

That is just bull and you know better.

Anet makes games B2P because Jeff Strain founded the company and he have been the number one B2P promoter since he coded battle.net (which BTW was supposed to be P2P). He quit Blizzard when they refused to let his last project which was a MMO set in the Warcraft IP (you might have heard about) to be B2P.

GW1 didnt had an itemshop at all th first years and as soon as he moved on they suddenly put a whole lot of stuff in the shop which prior only had storage and a skill unlock.

Strains new company Undead labs is working on a B2P MMO called Class 4 (you will hear a lot more about it later).

ANET is however more and more putting stuff into that cashshop and things are not really going in the direction I like but this was not originally made as a scam or anything. Strain is the best lead dev that ever worked for Blizzard and ANET (and he is also a master programmer which means he knows what he can implement and not unlike people like McQuaid).


I neither said it was a scam nor said it wasn't a good game. How about arguing the points rather instead of getting defensive that someone might have slighted your idol?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11428

8/27/12 8:34:33 AM#19
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 someone with a brass pair at Arenanet came up with a great idea:

Charge 60+ dollars for the client and then focus on positioning against the subscription model. By doing so, they received praise from that vocal crowd as a "B2P" MMO and was able to avoid the vast majority of F2P noise while they market their game. It's lunacy, but a beautiful and logical lunacy. Psychologically, a game is better to those players if they have to pay for it, so put a box charge at the front of your free to play game in order for them to accept it.

Complete brilliance.

GW2 is using the same business model as GW1 from 2005,  its not rocket science

 

   
How to Create a Successful MMO by Jeff Strain (ArenaNet)  2007

http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

Innovate with your game play, and innovate with your business model! The two go hand in hand, and are mutually dependent on each other. Decide on your business model first, and then build your game around it.

Guild Wars can be successful with its business model because we decided that we would not charge a subscription fee before we wrote the first line of code, and every design and technology decision we made served that purpose.

We could never turn Guild Wars into a subscription-based game, just as Turbine could not suddenly decide to eliminate the subscription model for Lord of the Rings Online. If you decide to require players to subscribe to your game, be prepared to build a game that thoroughly justifies it.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/27/12 8:47:06 AM#20
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Loktofeit

 someone with a brass pair at Arenanet came up with a great idea:

Charge 60+ dollars for the client and then focus on positioning against the subscription model. By doing so, they received praise from that vocal crowd as a "B2P" MMO and was able to avoid the vast majority of F2P noise while they market their game. It's lunacy, but a beautiful and logical lunacy. Psychologically, a game is better to those players if they have to pay for it, so put a box charge at the front of your free to play game in order for them to accept it.

Complete brilliance.

GW2 is using the same business model as GW1 from 2005,  its not rocket science

   
How to Create a Successful MMO by Jeff Strain (ArenaNet)  2007

http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

Innovate with your game play, and innovate with your business model! The two go hand in hand, and are mutually dependent on each other. Decide on your business model first, and then build your game around it.

Guild Wars can be successful with its business model because we decided that we would not charge a subscription fee before we wrote the first line of code, and every design and technology decision we made served that purpose.

We could never turn Guild Wars into a subscription-based game, just as Turbine could not suddenly decide to eliminate the subscription model for Lord of the Rings Online. If you decide to require players to subscribe to your game, be prepared to build a game that thoroughly justifies it.

Again, I never questioned GW1 or its model, at all. My post is to point out that GW2's design and technology decisions are built around a free to play game with a front-loaded box charge. Are you saying that it isn't?

I'm finding it intersting how the two responses so far focused on defending Jeff Strain, someone who was neither mentioned nor has anything to do with the current business model of GW2.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

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