Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by atticusbc

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by TheScavenger
Why is "Freemium" the new rage? More than paying monthly fee

Because the social engineering (read: 'sales push') that has been conducted across the 'independent' gaming sites acorss the gaming internet to make it so the last few years has been gob smackingly effective.

It just goes to show how easily opinions are formed and the drones are led, even to the point of ending up convinced they wanted it all along and even that it was THEIR idea.

Ofc, everyone so led is convinced they are hugely smart, totally beyond being sold to, having their opinions formed, or indeed incapable of ever being a drone. They are the smartest most free thinking individuals on the planet and impervious to being manipulated.

All the while they are thinking this the advertisers, shills, and creative marketing departments the world over are laughing their arses off.

I see I am not the only one that understands what has REALLY been going on for years now in MMO Gaming.

So the only ones that are truely smart are the ones that agree with you?  Interesting.

this is awesome. we're getting horrifying conspiracy theories even in the mmo industry. hey did bobby kotick take elvis?

 

Statements of denial like this that you are being sold to and having your opinions formed are exactly why the 'creative marketers' are laughing their arses off at you.

This is kind of the point in what I was saying really. They even have the normal user arguing to defend, deny, or discredit the aggressive commercial promotion of the cash shop revenue model because it's easier then admitting he is getting played.

If you cannot see that this revenue model has been handled and sold very much in the same way as a conventional product across the internet the past few years then I don't really know what to say to you except wake up and look around further then your own tiny bubble.

 

It may very well be going, however your answer consistently ignores the individuals ability to reason for themselves.

I don't ignore it, there are plenty of individuals who have a wider perspective on things like this. I was refering to the ones being played on this, not the ones who aren't.

But, yes, I do think in general the individuals ability to reason for themselves is overrated. As humans we are amazingly susceptable to outside influence and are actualy amazingly predictable.

I guess this is part of the reason I could see a response like yours coming, almost word for word.

 

I do believe it is going on, however I do not believe I or most are being handled. 

Which is exactly what I was saying. Ofc you do not. That is essential to it being effective.

The ones being 'handled' are by defintion the last to realise they are.

I have edited out your weak attempts at trolling for the sake of clarity.

Like I said

Your statement is basically saying that only people who agree with you are smart enough to realize what is going on, everyone else is being handled and having their opinions forms by others. This is completely incorrect and a completely inflated and arrogant self-appraisal.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Like I said

Your statement is basically saying that only people who agree with you are smart enough to realize what is going on, everyone else is being handled and having their opinions forms by others. This is completely incorrect and a completely inflated and arrogant self-appraisal.

Yes, you said. Nothing else to add I assume?

/yawn

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Like I said

Your statement is basically saying that only people who agree with you are smart enough to realize what is going on, everyone else is being handled and having their opinions forms by others. This is completely incorrect and a completely inflated and arrogant self-appraisal.

 

Yes, you said. Nothing else to add I assume?

/yawn

There is nothing else to add.

Your position negates conversation or debate. 

Originally posted by TheScavenger
Freemiums are very expensive. Ever taken a look at everything you would need to unlock, compared to just paying monthly? Vanguard, Everquest 2 and Lord of the Rings online (unless you grind for a year to get it for free)...all cost more than a years worth of subscription would if you wanted to unlock every class/quest/bags/etc. EQ2 and VG being the most expensive out of the ones I listed. Sure, you can play for free...but they are more like an extended demo than anything.

A real free to play is a lot better, since you can truly play for free and everything is unlocked, without being nickle and dimed. Granted, it may or may not be pay to win. Or a one time fee like Guild Wars, works just as well. Pay once, and never pay again (except for cosmetics or whatever). Buy to Play and (usually) cash shops free to play (not freemium) are WAY cheaper than how freemium games are, in any case. Not sure why everyone is on the freemium bandwagon, when there are very good MMOs built around free to play (or buy to play) that are actually good, and a lot cheaper.

" Freemium " much like " F2P " are nothing more than buzzwords used in advertising.   They don't actually mean the game is cheap or free, but are used as incentive to get more players.   Overall all the cash shop games are the same.  They just have different options in their cash shops.  Your confusion isn't anything thing out of the ordinary for an industry that cannot regulate itself.  GW2 is the perfect example of a P2W game that is trying to rebrand itself through advertising.  If the game really was B2P, then there wouldn't be a cash shop.     

Players only want to purchase power from cash shops, and GW2 will have to provide that if they want to meet " expectations ".

The WSJ recently did an article on the "freemium" business model.  It's not specific to games but still is very applicable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443713704577603782317318996.html?KEYWORDS=freemium#articleTabs%3Darticle

Originally posted by dave6660

The WSJ recently did an article on the "freemium" business model.  It's not specific to games but still is very applicable.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443713704577603782317318996.html?KEYWORDS=freemium#articleTabs%3Darticle

An excellent article, and yet another reference for solid data to debunk the "freemium is expensive" nonsense.

Understanding where and how to set up the freemium service is key to its functionality and to the product/service success.

Originally posted by TheScavenger
Freemiums are very expensive. Ever taken a look at everything you would need to unlock, compared to just paying monthly? Vanguard, Everquest 2 and Lord of the Rings online (unless you grind for a year to get it for free)...all cost more than a years worth of subscription would if you wanted to unlock every class/quest/bags/etc. EQ2 and VG being the most expensive out of the ones I listed. Sure, you can play for free...but they are more like an extended demo than anything.

A real free to play is a lot better, since you can truly play for free and everything is unlocked, without being nickle and dimed. Granted, it may or may not be pay to win. Or a one time fee like Guild Wars, works just as well. Pay once, and never pay again (except for cosmetics or whatever). Buy to Play and (usually) cash shops free to play (not freemium) are WAY cheaper than how freemium games are, in any case. Not sure why everyone is on the freemium bandwagon, when there are very good MMOs built around free to play (or buy to play) that are actually good, and a lot cheaper.

I play a lot of freemiums and they cost me less than a sub a month.  The most I ever buy is extra bag space if that.  I dont think I would ever want to unlock everything, which is the beauty of freemium -- I get to CHOOSE what I want to pay for and what I dont.  I agree that EQ2 and its gold/silver tiers was a bad implementation.  They restrict too much content which affects how you play the game.  I prefer the GW2 model that allows you to play everything for free - BUT if you want some extra chatzki, you can pay for it.

But F2P has definitely been cheaper than a year worth of subs, which works for me.  For example I could not justify paying 15/mo for SWTOR but will probably play through all 8 stories as soon as it goes F2P.  Why would I wait?  Because when its F2P I wont feel like I "have" to play it through the month just to make back the 15 dollars.  I could play it for 2 weeks, leave it alone go to GW2 then come back 3 months later and finish it.  If that was a sub I would have 'wasted' 45 dollars... of which could be used to support my limited cash shop shopping.

From the article mentioned in the above posts:

“The freemium approach doesn't make sense for any business that can't eventually reach millions of users.”

The article also goes on to relate how many products that use freemium as a business model fail. Specific examples are given of software launched on the freemium model where the owners are now desperately trying to get paying or subscription customers.

Look at the MMO market today, show me the MMO that is assured of getting millions of users. As far as I know apart from WoW there is none.

Freemium is a poor business model for the long term survivability of a MMO. It has been profitable enough in some western MMO’s but very few and only the older ones with a loyal player base. If you are going to try and build up such a loyal base on a freemium model today I wish you luck, as you will need it.

Many more eastern MMO’s are F2P, they have had more success with that model than we have had here. But as to long term profit their players seem be even more like migrating gaming locusts than our own.

The only MMO that was a run away success in the terms that the Wall Street Journal measures success was WoW. Built on the subscription model it raked cash in. WoW is now going the hybrid route, selling off bits of itself in a cash shop. That sort of model can work if you had subscription funded content in the beginning. But only because of the original subscription funding.

Freemium teaches us a life lesson that many players and posters just don’t seem to want to learn. You don’t get something for nothing.

Originally posted by Scot

From the article mentioned in the above posts:

“The freemium approach doesn't make sense for any business that can't eventually reach millions of users.”

The article also goes on to relate how many products that use freemium as a business model fail. Specific examples are given of software launched on the freemium model where the owners are now desperately trying to get paying or subscription customers.

Look at the MMO market today, show me the MMO that is assured of getting millions of users. As far as I know apart from WoW there is none.

You are confusing concurrent subscribers with users. The number of users - unique and returning - that churn in and out of these games over time is in the millions.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by KingGator

 

There is no such thing as free to play. You will pay one way or the other. It just so happens sub games in the long run are cheaper, and more honest about what they're doing.

What you say is factually wrong. A majority of F2P players do NOT pay. It is well known that a few whales are subsidizing everyone else.

So no .. you won't pay. A few will pay for you.

actually...YOU are factually wrong. in another thread i posted in about a month ago someone found data showing that literally 75 percent of free to play players pay!! it was also shown thay retention is low. so yeah... you are factually wrong. ill find the links later.im on my phone. or if you care to educate yourself you can look it up.

Here are research showing that MOST f2p players do NOT pay.

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/31562/Report_475m_Americans_Play_Online_Games_But_More_Still_Play_Consoles.php

And i quote "The large majority of free-to-play online gamers in the U.S. never pay extra money on virtual items, the main revenue generator for many "free-to-play" games, according to the report."

http://www.gamesindustryblog.com/2012/07/superdata-research-newzoo-global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs." .. that is a majority 27M .. do not pay.

 

 

Dude... you need to learn to comprehend what that sentence means. It specifically states, "pay extra money on virtual items". Unlocks are not virtual items. Levels are not virtual items. Character slots are not virtual items. But hey.. if it helps you sleep at night to pretend that it means "no money spent at all"... then so be it.

As for your second quote, did you not read the entire article? It states that revenue from F2P is up. It also does not take into account the exceptionally poor retention rate that F2P games have. People are in and out so quick its crazy. The ones who stick around are the ones paying. So while a lot of people are jumping into these F2P games, they aren't sticking around! If I had any more motivation I'd bring up the stats I referred to previously... but even if someone came knocking on your door with proof I feel you'd ignore it.

I'd dig up info proving yet again that you are factually wrong, but with your type its pointless. You pick and choose which data you like. I honestly feel you are ignorant and refuse to open your eyes. I find that I can be unreasonable at times, but one thing I am not is reckless with my money. If F2P was cheaper, and was indeed actually free, I'd be all over it. I've been involved in advertising and media for well over a decade now, and it never ceases to amaze me how easy it is to sway the population into believing something if you tell them its true. I love it. I'm not even the marketing guy, I'm just the guy who makes it happen. We can find numbers to back up anything, even if we know its not entirely true. Kind of like Apple when they had the G5 computers out and referred to them as super computers because they could do one operation faster than a pc. Thing is, real world performance was MUCH slower (hence the stopped using motorola processors and switched to intel). It also reminds of of climategate, and to a funnier extent, how a band comes out of nowhere and the teeny boppers are told its the new hit band, so they are the new hit band! 

With this, I give up. I can't stop F2P. Some people will understand what it brings, others need to learn the hard way. A wise man learns from a fools mistake. Like most things, it'll get worse before it gets better. But I remain positive that once the F2P stuff hits its peak something will come around and fix it all (even if the games arent better lol). Will it be a sub model again? I dunno. But F2P is not the way to go. Companies are in it for money, so why would they want F2P? Think. Im out.

No confusion, you need millions of users to form a player base that pays in some way. How many F2P games have millions of users Lokofeit? I just don’t think there are that many, reliable numbers seem to be hard to come by, but the impression you get is F2P games are getting by or failing, not making a mint.

Originally posted by Scot

No confusion, you need millions of users to form a player base that pays in some way. How many F2P games have millions of users Lokofeit? I just don’t think there are that many, reliable numbers seem to be hard to come by, but the impression you get is F2P games are getting by or failing, not making a mint.

One thing that seems clear (in my opinion) is that MMO's that are being released this year and to be released post 2012 designed to be freemium/F2P or B2P are of a standard equal or better than the P2P games released this year.

I used to be very much opposed to non-P2P models, mainly because the graphics & gameplay were shite and the game was a poorly disguised cash shop. Today I've changed my mind with titles such as Planetside 2 and Guild Wars 2 being released, they look and play like AAA games, because they are but they aren't P2P.

Perhaps it's not so much that these payment models such as freemium, f2p and b2p are "all the rage" but more that P2P no longer cuts the mustard when I can play a AAA title for free?

I feel that P2P stumbled when SWtOR took a hit, and before some mentions WoW more than 50% of their playerbase is in China and they don't use the same P2P model as the west but pay about $5 for 66 hours of gaming and the box and expansions are free.

Probably because companies are smart enough to know today's playerbase wants everything as quickly as possible, and will pay through the nose to get their first, or have that advantage over other players. Which....I am guessing brings them more money in than a monthly sub would.

Played RoM and Allods Online at one time and saw it first hand. You paid to win, or didn't enjoy the game at all. Why I no longer play them.

If a freemium model is advantageous for a player or not depends on the player's consumption habits.

If you know that you're going to play a game for several years (with breaks) then the freemium model of unlocking content with a one time payment is cheaper than a subscription.

A freemium game (e.g. DDO or LOTRO) also offers a player the option of signing a subscription. The question here is, does the subscription offer that many benefits? With DDO for example you get some free points every month (500 Turbine Points), free access to the whole game content and you can unlock quests at higher difficulties without first having to do the lower difficulty levels. This is not that much.

If you don't want to pay anything then you have access to some basic content and most standard classes and races. You can earn in-game Turbine points but this involves lots of grind.

Most of the items which are on sale in the cash shop are not worth the money. Consumable (e.g. potions) can be found in game (either as quest rewards or through the in-game auction house. Vanity items (pets) are just pointless. Cosmetic items (Design overlays) are pointless to a point because the crafting system allows you to enchant standard items. This allows you get for example armor whose design you like and enchant it how you want. There are permanent stat boosts available but you can find equivalent stat boosts in-game already.

If a company can convince enough players that they really need to buy such things for real money then the company will make money. There is an old saying in my language: "Everyday a stupid person is born".