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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » UO to EQ to WoW to SWTOR and TSW. What have we lost?

19 posts found
  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/24/12 5:00:35 AM#1

I realize that I may not take part in forums often ( as a M59 original player I've been playing mmo's long enough to know forums are often toxic ) but I have become increasingly frustrated with mmorpg releases that attempt to treat symptoms of boom and bust subscriptions but not the illness.

The really great things about UO/M59/Everquest were not the death penalties or steep learning curve as many hardcore traditionalists may seem to tout. In my opinion it was the evolving world supported by REAL people employed by their respective companies that maintained a presence in the game world. Once upon a time, A GM was a person that had an avatar you could interact with. They wrote events, gave you quests, roleplayed with you and made the world living and breathing.

You could really tell that the game world was alive with the people who created them. If anyone remembers the world events in EQ such as the Battle of Kithicor Forest or in M59 Damion Schubert's Vale of Sorrows events knows what I'm talking about. The freeform environment, believable world and invested GMs are what drew you in. UO even had amazing player housing, something that alot of people love and want.. a place to call "home" in your virtual world yet something that many MMO designers ignore in recent releases.

It was the PEOPLE and  the events you remember. The ties you forged during CRs, the enemies you made camping names, the druids and wizards you paid for ports... the clerics who buffed you for tips because you knew that they had to med for 5 mins after that Heroic Resolution they casted on you that made the difference and retained players.

 

My question is to all of you. What do you want from a MMORPG?

Is it the people or hoarding stuff??? Really! I know I have acquired so much "phat lewt" over the year from my EQ1 jboots and water sprinkler of nem ankh in my purple PoH Armor, to my server first perdition's blade in WoW, to first server full BM gear in SWTOR etc etc that I don't need MORE STUFF. 

 

  shiner421

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/07
Posts: 41

8/24/12 5:09:43 AM#2

You have nailed it exactly for me. I do remember the battle for kithicor forest!

 

The only thing i would add is a game that let the players build it, literally! You start with a small game world with room to build, then let the players build the cities through gathering and crafting. You literally build your own house and amenities, and the guild forts / cities, and then have giant pvp battles for ownership and such.

 

Thats my two cents.

  Indrome

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/12
Posts: 294

This is like trying to drive straight through Schroedinger's minefield!

8/24/12 5:15:33 AM#3

What you describe is the change from virtual world to massive multiplayer online roleplaying GAME.

Instant gratification is the key today. People and games need to move faster and burn brighter on the market. In modern days, developers and market analysts

can't expect players to hone their mining and blacksmithing skills for weeks to be able to build that mythril armor in the end.

can't expect players to wander into the wild for hours until they finally discover that dragon cave.

can't expect players to max a cooking skill for weeks and actually sell the food they make to others actually needing it. Thereby saving up money for weeks again to finally buy that house deed.

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with the more "action oriented" style of gameplay these days. Ultima Online back then was a set of "animated rules" you could basically play a free-form pen&paper roleplay in. In three dimensional graphics this is much more difficult to achieve or "let happen".

  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/24/12 5:37:25 AM#4
Originally posted by Indrome

What you describe is the change from virtual world to massive multiplayer online roleplaying GAME.

Instant gratification is the key today. People and games need to move faster and burn brighter on the market. In modern days, developers and market analysts

can't expect players to hone their mining and blacksmithing skills for weeks to be able to build that mythril armor in the end.

can't expect players to wander into the wild for hours until they finally discover that dragon cave.

can't expect players to max a cooking skill for weeks and actually sell the food they make to others actually needing it. Thereby saving up money for weeks again to finally buy that house deed.

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with the more "action oriented" style of gameplay these days. Ultima Online back then was a set of "animated rules" you could basically play a free-form pen&paper roleplay in. In three dimensional graphics this is much more difficult to achieve or "let happen".

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think what constitutes a "game" has been widely redefined and the market at large definitely desires more expediant "reward". Gratification imo... is a different thing entirely. I'd challenge not many people really are experiencing "gratification" on a sustained scale with new releases. WoW has the house shored up with people seeking itemized rewards however.

Expecting a player to do something and giving a player an option to do something is different however. If you want to talk about Bartle dynamics however... "exploring" for that cave and "socializing" with players is 50% of the gaming formula. 

I don't see how a marriage of these concepts is difficult to achieve. ( Although I'm not a game designer )

I can say emphatically however that most mmo's I've played lately have felt like single player lobby games where I can interact with others "if I wished". I mean... if I didn't wish I could just play a single player game in my mindset as TES/KOTOR/DA/FF/Persona and any other long list of single player RPGs that do gameplay more uniquely and story that is superior in spades to their mmo counterpart. 

It's almost seems like that in today's market... the only reason to choose a MMORPG over a SPRPG is PvP... which isn't always my favorite thing to do, but is a good way to kill boredom :)

  Siug

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 916

8/24/12 5:52:38 AM#5

Of those mentioned I haven't played UO and although I think that Everquest was the best MMO until PoP expansion I like TSW very much too. Of course it's smaller and way more solo friendly but then again I'd never do those EQ style 12 raids again. I just like TSW, it's theme, atmosphere etc, and I absolutely disliked WoW. SWTOR was so lifeless and sterile I could find nothing to do after 2,5 months.

So yes, I'd like more exploration, surprises (very rare mob wandering around etc), events and something to create on my own (be it exceptional crafting items or whatever). If FC adds at least something else than endgame dungons to TSW then I'll be a happy customer.

Oh and you can as well put GW2 in subject because that one is too casual even for a casual like me. And mediocre in every way.

  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/24/12 5:55:03 AM#6
More and more games are trending towards "fighting" esp mmo's. While it seems alot of single player games retain a good deal of puzzle solving and exploring. I don't see how a game is less of a game if it involves many things other than killing stuff.
  warbot7777

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/28/07
Posts: 117

8/24/12 6:05:40 AM#7
UO, SWG, and Neocron 1 all were my favorite games. All had player housing. I enjoyed many hours just sitting in my own house crafting, or pvping off the porch in UO. SWG player towns were incredible too, lots of potential there. NC1 had instanced apartments, and you could invite friends inside. I don't understand why some form of player housing isn't added to any new releases. Instanced dwellings should be easy enough to create. A majority of players want instanced homes, and I count myself one of them.
  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16024

8/24/12 6:13:35 AM#8

Ah, M59, that was good times.

And I agree, but the thing is that most MMOs are not really made for fun by a few gamers anymore, it is a massive million dollar industry so you will never get enough dedicated GMs today.

Compare how many servers Meridian had at launch with TOR and you see the point. There are still some small fan made MMOs which have the devs as GMs but most people avoid them since they are full of bugs and have no budget to talk about.

  everland

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 72

8/24/12 6:15:57 AM#9
Originally posted by CerebralM

I realize that I may not take part in forums often ( as a M59 original player I've been playing mmo's long enough to know forums are often toxic ) but I have become increasingly frustrated with mmorpg releases that attempt to treat symptoms of boom and bust subscriptions but not the illness.

The really great things about UO/M59/Everquest were not the death penalties or steep learning curve as many hardcore traditionalists may seem to tout. In my opinion it was the evolving world supported by REAL people employed by their respective companies that maintained a presence in the game world. Once upon a time, A GM was a person that had an avatar you could interact with. They wrote events, gave you quests, roleplayed with you and made the world living and breathing.

You could really tell that the game world was alive with the people who created them. If anyone remembers the world events in EQ such as the Battle of Kithicor Forest or in M59 Damion Schubert's Vale of Sorrows events knows what I'm talking about. The freeform environment, believable world and invested GMs are what drew you in. UO even had amazing player housing, something that alot of people love and want.. a place to call "home" in your virtual world yet something that many MMO designers ignore in recent releases.

It was the PEOPLE and  the events you remember. The ties you forged during CRs, the enemies you made camping names, the druids and wizards you paid for ports... the clerics who buffed you for tips because you knew that they had to med for 5 mins after that Heroic Resolution they casted on you that made the difference and retained players.

 

My question is to all of you. What do you want from a MMORPG?

Is it the people or hoarding stuff??? Really! I know I have acquired so much "phat lewt" over the year from my EQ1 jboots and water sprinkler of nem ankh in my purple PoH Armor, to my server first perdition's blade in WoW, to first server full BM gear in SWTOR etc etc that I don't need MORE STUFF. 

 

The world modified by people was much easier to make back in the days when graphics didn't need that much resources to be created. The games you see now are completely different genre. Look how good machine you need to play games like Tera or GW2 smoothly on good settings. And it is only content created by developers, that is optimized to run fast.

Now imagine every player can add something on the map, or just drop items that are visible on the ground like in older games... your pc dies a tragic death.

Or imagine GM spams monsters into city... if your PC will survive that, then you will see lots of angry casuals that keep dying in town and say they can't play this game. Players are different now.

The first ones were more medieval sims with combat, while the new games are action role play games.

No one will make the first type anymore since it wouldn't entertain today's players anymore. Unless of course they would make it instant gratification, which wouldn't make much sense.

  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1708

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8/24/12 6:32:58 AM#10

*raises an eyebrow*

Now while i stayed away from EQ1 i did play UO a good amount. And what we have lost from that period are two things

 

1: The size of the community, back in the days we were few and any deviant behaviour quickly made your life difficult. As the community grew (and then with WoW exploded) this became less and less of a issue and thus the quality of the experience sank.

2: Lack of options. In todays market we (the players) have a bewildering array of options when it comes to what type of game we like to play. Back with UO it was only one game pretty much... FFA full loot PvP carnage. This forced people to group up for simply survival.  Now i know that the "themepark" games are dominant but that is because that sort of setting is supperior (there are a ton of market reserach over the years that show this) when it comes to give people the illusion of value, and this is not some new thing... it have been that way for decades (themeparks that is.. not MMO's).

 

I rather look at what we have gained over that period of time.

1: A user interface that is actually usefull

2: Wastly improved storytelling

3: Options... We now have a multitude of options when it comes to mmo gaming, ranging all the axels from pants on head frtiendly like Wizard 101 to games like EvE where a 2 year plan and some serious spreadsheet skills are needed to take full advantage of the game. From the sandiest of sandboxes to the most railed of themeparks. That is something to celebrate.

4: The size of the community. Thanks to WoW MMO's have been seen as a valid market and now that the ball is in motion there will be no stopping it (unless they shut down the internet).

 

So if you are hankering for a game like Ultima Online... What is stopping your from making it. After all there is theoretically nothing stoping you from going out there and secure the fund, find a publisher and and a distributor and the start hauling... But the ting is that as long as the majority enjoys a type of entertainment .. that is the one that will get the spotlight, and as long as that happens you will alwyas have the hipsters that lay claim to some edgy left field by eating ghostpepper spiced cashewes and watching un-subbed Bulgarian experimental primal scream movies. This does not make them more or less right or wrong... Just in the need to a glass of milk.

This have been a good conversation

  Vigiliance

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 205

8/25/12 3:33:34 PM#11

Personally I never played any of those games online, I did play some ultima and some older rpgs in a single player fashion but never in their MMO aspects. I played Wow at its very beginings and I can tell you just from the changes I have seen there that:

 

Very few people are willing to invest significant amounts of time anymore. Tradeskills for example can be maxed in a day or two with a guide and a bit of coin for those rough spots. Most of the content is designed to be finished under an hour  or at max two and provides little challenge as to get the broadest player bases involved in content. There is some type of hyper senstivity towards time investment and has been formed into the negative term "Grindy". AKA. Instant gratification.

Most instances or group content now don't require you to be social at all, click this button and join some random group. This instance will not require you to communicate at all, so feel free to turn the sound off and listen to your favorite music and as you blast through this content in under 20-30 minutes.

Crafting has no depth anymore. It takes very little invesment to max out and doesn't feel significant at all. There are thousand's of blacksmiths out there and every other trade skill under the sun. Perhaps one or two of them may have a special pattern but when you get the item if your engaged in end game content its shelf life will be rather insignificant compared to its cost because it can replaced easily.

There are very little social elements left in these games anymore. Putting together a group is as easy as pressing "Que" or "Join game". The game world outside of the instances feels like a Lobby. It isn't living or breathing, its a static lobby, think diablo II. There is no sense of community and you have troll chat in any major chat channel filled with content that reflects the maturity level of something you'd expect from gradeschool. 

Class design now makes every class easy enough to play that it makes it hard to find those pinnacle players of each class. For example take the trinty of tanking, healing and dps. If you didn't have a meter running you would be hard pressed to tell who was an excellent player and who as just average or who "sucks". Essentially classes aren't hard/rewardng enough to play at your best, so just let other people do the work.

 

To me this is the consequences of trying to make games convenient as possible. I personally don't enjoy it therefore I don't play them but I am hardpressed to find a game developer that has the same ideals and concepts in mind as me.

I personally come from the game philosophy that anything is worth having is difficult and I'd like to see that reflected through the game as a whole attracting like minded people. '

 

Just my two cents.

 

  L0st

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/08
Posts: 71

8/26/12 2:35:21 PM#12
I think what we've lost is our minds.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6341

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

8/26/12 3:01:28 PM#13

Well Op,yes you have described what REAL events are,not this masquerading GW2 does.However  it takes a team to not only make decent event content on an ongoing basis but also active Gm's to join in.That is a lot of added cost developers seem to be avoiding entirely.

Game design right now is cut so thin,there is not much left for developers to cut corners on.We already have instanced servers [which i do not like],missing content [many] and tons of automation instead of allowing the player to feel the immersion of a real game world.Need i also mention the Hand holding that did not exist in rpg's back in the day.

I will point out a problem however that can be a result of GM's playing the games.I think many remeber the EVE online ordeal where a GM was cheating to help it was either friends or his guild members,don't exactly remember which .

I also remember ROM,the events were absolute awful,it was like the GM's spent ZERO resources and about 10 minutes to think them up.Then i remember quite a few years back playing the weekly events in  RFO [Rising Force onliine].They would create an event that gave buffers advantages over everyone else.Then they tried to fix their bumbling event with a warning that anyone cheating with a speed buff would get a ban.LOL ya right,immediately all speed buffers cheated and the GM's retracted by saying anyone complaining would get a ban.if that is not a bunch of total idiots i don't know what is.

Bottom line is no matter what you do,you need a developer and GM's who actually WANT to put out the heart felt effort into the game.However the guys controlling the payroll are not into spending money anymore so good luck getting a solid effort from devs and GM's.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/28/12 8:18:13 AM#14
Originally posted by Vigiliance

Personally I never played any of those games online, I did play some ultima and some older rpgs in a single player fashion but never in their MMO aspects. I played Wow at its very beginings and I can tell you just from the changes I have seen there that:

 

Very few people are willing to invest significant amounts of time anymore. Tradeskills for example can be maxed in a day or two with a guide and a bit of coin for those rough spots. Most of the content is designed to be finished under an hour  or at max two and provides little challenge as to get the broadest player bases involved in content. There is some type of hyper senstivity towards time investment and has been formed into the negative term "Grindy". AKA. Instant gratification.

Most instances or group content now don't require you to be social at all, click this button and join some random group. This instance will not require you to communicate at all, so feel free to turn the sound off and listen to your favorite music and as you blast through this content in under 20-30 minutes.

Crafting has no depth anymore. It takes very little invesment to max out and doesn't feel significant at all. There are thousand's of blacksmiths out there and every other trade skill under the sun. Perhaps one or two of them may have a special pattern but when you get the item if your engaged in end game content its shelf life will be rather insignificant compared to its cost because it can replaced easily.

There are very little social elements left in these games anymore. Putting together a group is as easy as pressing "Que" or "Join game". The game world outside of the instances feels like a Lobby. It isn't living or breathing, its a static lobby, think diablo II. There is no sense of community and you have troll chat in any major chat channel filled with content that reflects the maturity level of something you'd expect from gradeschool. 

Class design now makes every class easy enough to play that it makes it hard to find those pinnacle players of each class. For example take the trinty of tanking, healing and dps. If you didn't have a meter running you would be hard pressed to tell who was an excellent player and who as just average or who "sucks". Essentially classes aren't hard/rewardng enough to play at your best, so just let other people do the work.

 

To me this is the consequences of trying to make games convenient as possible. I personally don't enjoy it therefore I don't play them but I am hardpressed to find a game developer that has the same ideals and concepts in mind as me.

I personally come from the game philosophy that anything is worth having is difficult and I'd like to see that reflected through the game as a whole attracting like minded people. '

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

I think this echoes my feelings quite accurately. Experience seems so streamlined in all forms of games. Especially MMORPGs. There is no personal spin or playstyle of your own. No sense of personal accomplishment because if you "competent" you can complete the content designed for you. "Group" enemies... good lord I remember the first time I saw one of those... I thought "what the heck" and it was a new concept and kind of interesting to me. Now I see this as almost a pox on the industry. Group content limits, everything designed specifically with a certain make up or number of players is a real experience killer for me.

Alot of the fun I had in older games was doing the "impossible" . Now the impossible is really impossible and the possible is just mediocre. The Witcher 2 takes a step up though and has some pretty neat fights that you can get creative with and takes a bit of thinking to reason through all the possibilities.

Folks spend more time now in game than they used to and what are they doing? Complaining about level "grinds" crafting, anything that takes whatever length of time to reach a goal. I mean... what do people want? I'm often dissatified when I reach "max level" or acquire everything I want to in a game. Getting to the end is never the beggining for me sadly.

 

Now I'm not bashing the new streamlined version of many games because they have brought some new things to gaming but I would reallly reallllllllly like some old fashioned problem solving and open ended complexities that have been left for players to "figure out" instead of being "tested to death" in creating a solveable gimmick that operates the same way every time with a fomula of X players doing X things. 

  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/28/12 8:22:45 AM#15
Originally posted by Wizardry

Well Op,yes you have described what REAL events are,not this masquerading GW2 does.However  it takes a team to not only make decent event content on an ongoing basis but also active Gm's to join in.That is a lot of added cost developers seem to be avoiding entirely.

Game design right now is cut so thin,there is not much left for developers to cut corners on.We already have instanced servers [which i do not like],missing content [many] and tons of automation instead of allowing the player to feel the immersion of a real game world.Need i also mention the Hand holding that did not exist in rpg's back in the day.

I will point out a problem however that can be a result of GM's playing the games.I think many remeber the EVE online ordeal where a GM was cheating to help it was either friends or his guild members,don't exactly remember which .

I also remember ROM,the events were absolute awful,it was like the GM's spent ZERO resources and about 10 minutes to think them up.Then i remember quite a few years back playing the weekly events in  RFO [Rising Force onliine].They would create an event that gave buffers advantages over everyone else.Then they tried to fix their bumbling event with a warning that anyone cheating with a speed buff would get a ban.LOL ya right,immediately all speed buffers cheated and the GM's retracted by saying anyone complaining would get a ban.if that is not a bunch of total idiots i don't know what is.

Bottom line is no matter what you do,you need a developer and GM's who actually WANT to put out the heart felt effort into the game.However the guys controlling the payroll are not into spending money anymore so good luck getting a solid effort from devs and GM's.

Of course there is always room for abuse... but the human element always creates a social community. I can't help but wonder what could happen if everything wasn't so planned out, designed and strictly controlled and tested before implemented in a coded and immoveable way. Add a bit of randomness and human touch in there. While I never acquired a "Primal" ( which was a one time server event in EQ ) I always thought it was really awesome that there were items in the game world that were truley unique. One and done acquisitions and the people that had them became hallmarks of community. If everyone has all the same stuff, does all the same events and plays everything the same way...

I think we are left with a less unique and fullfilling experience.

  jybgess

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 362

8/28/12 8:48:18 AM#16
 

Been playing MMO's since AC1 back in 99. These are some of the things that I believe have made MMO's dull and stale. This is only my opinion........

 

  1. Instances: I believe instances kill immersion. I never did mind exploring and running into a cave only to find someone else in the same cave as myself. In AC1, there might have been a chest at the bottom of a cave with a high level mob. Everyone would help kill the mob and take turns looting the chest. You got to know other people while this was going on.

  2. Loot: I find that MMO's today are lazy with loot. In WoW for instance, you would see people walking around with the same dagger,sword,shield as everyone else. To me, that is boring. Everyone knew what dropped it and where to find it. In AC1, I could kill a mob and I never knew what I was going to get. AC1 did have weapons,items,armor you could get from quest but they where not the best you could get. One of the weapons quests I loved was the Atlin weapons one. The quests for weapons where you have to kill 15 rats then come back and ill give you a dagger is weak... My opinion.

  3. Seamless Open World: Why can't we walk over mountains? Why do I hit an invisible wall? Why am I on rails in all these game since WoW? Let me explore. Find an area that might be to hard for me. Let me figure it out. Do I really need a mob that has its name in red/purple to tell me it might be a hard fight??

  4. Skill System: Why dont we see more MMO's with a skill based system? Cookie cutter fears? To hard to make? Dont we see for the most part every Class based game use the same class skills? We need a Skill system game. AC1 was a skill based game. I cant remember how many different skills people used. There was so many different builds and they worked.

  5. PVP: I love PvP. To me, it add excitement. All we get these days are battlegrounds. Open world PvP I believe is a must. But used in the same was as AC1. You had to do a quest in order to become (RED) You could only kill other players who did this quest. If you didnt do the quest, you could not partake in PvP. If you changed your mined after getting raped for so long, there was another quest you had to do to go back to (white). There was also a full PvP server.

 

Just my opinions. My rant is over.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3545

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

8/28/12 9:15:47 AM#17

I know exactly what you mean. I went (main games) UO, Asherons Call 1-2 (I wish I had skipped 2), Dark Age of Camelot (never really got that deeply into it) , WoW(all expansions), Horizons at launch(now renamed Istaria). Tabula Rasa(really enjoyed elements of it), AoC, Guild wars, Warhammer online, Vangard(one of the most in depth), Dungeons and Dragons online (at launch, and then a few years later when they went F2P), then RIFTS (good game, but limited end game), SWTOR (only MMO other than STO that I quit inside the second month, quit STO inside of the first month), finally TERA (good game until they started with their "balancing" of the lancer class).  

So many games over the years, that they all start to blur togather. Some stand out, even with their rough edges, and design elements that I no longer tolerate (Asherons Call in particular and its corpse runs and lost gear for one).  But a very entertaining game for its time.  

What makes games stand out is the people involved, and their interactions.  But talented/experienced people are in short supply these days, and those who are still around tend to be expensive and/or eccentric.  Until the technology and software advance to the point that a handful of such people can create an MMO, I suspect what we have to look forward to is just more of what we have seen to this point. 

  Whiskey76

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/28/12
Posts: 2

8/28/12 5:43:15 PM#18
CerebralM,
 
I can pretty much agree with you on your Online gaming progression, I too went from UO->EQ->DAoC->Wow->Yadda yadda yadda (Nothing has been too earth shattering since)
 
 
Probably the single most changing thing, was age, career family. Many times with previous games it was easier for me to delve deeply, and get excited about things that went on in them, but as the time passed I have slowly, but not assuredly, lost interest.
 
As I see new MMO's now, I feel like the biggest things that made me lose interest was things lost in each game.
 
Let me give a list of things that have dissappeared, from gaming, that I believe really needs to make a comeback, just for reading pleasure and purely opinionated.
 
UO
Oh boy, here is the big one. For me the best part of a game is what can be lost by being at the wrong place and the wrong time. Nothing was even close to this in recent memory, other than UO.
 
What I lost when I quit playing, was a sense of danger. Some caused by coming across a Lich in the woods, and the inevitable rush to get back to your items, before someone else happened by them, Hurray! corpse run OoOooOO. Or worse, going tra-la-la-ing along in a dungeon, when a portal opens and out pours 5-7 nasty and very red murdeous bastards, that will "Corp Por" and "Un Vas Flam" you and your horse, then cut up you up into pieces and leave, with all your goods... ALL YOUR GOODS! 
 
This was a designed element of the game. You either coped with the loss, or better.. formed friends that would band with you, and get some payback, and not the sorta payback of just getting a kill... no... you found out around town, or paid people to find out, where the "reds" lived, got your buddies together, and camped out waiting for them to come home. Ambushed them, took their keys, cut them up into pieces and ransacked all their ill gotten goods, then proceeded to create recall runes and key duplicates for everyone they harmed the same... Oh man. This game truely had it all, an nothing since has come close.
 
The pure human element in this game, from player run towns, to housing and danger of the unknown. Yea.. that kept me playing.
 
Then along came EQ.
 
EQ
About 2 weeks after lauch of this game, I went from blue to a "zek" and never turned back. The biggest thing to know about a zek, if you never played eq, was, this is were pvp rained down 24/7.
 
No stupid battle grounds, or matched games, oh no.. in this beaut of a game, if you wanted glory and booty, you needed to fight for it, the pve element was there, oh yes... who remembers 70 man raids? But not only that, the Dragons or "planes of existance" you raided, were hotly contested, and once they were dead. They stayed dead, for a week.
 
PVP was less threatening, and even more so once they "fixed" it, but before that you could simply take 1 item that was not bound to the player.... I think EQ invented the whole "Bind on Equip" , if you were wondering why it came into being, it was because of PVP, well in my honest opinion it was anyways. Well they removed that, but it did not change the desire to do battle for bosses.
 
I think this is what we lost in EQ, no more constant contesting for mobs, meant no real purpose to having better gear. The better gear made you stronger, the stronger you were, the better chance you had to do battle against your enemies (In this case other players), Good lord fighting trolls with Fungal Tunics sucked! Yes... Yes... I miss this much. The importance of guild was sooo important for this game play.
 
Then... along came WoW (Gonna Skip DAOC, cause that took gaming a different direction)
 
WoW
Whelp, I do not want to discredit the years of change and excellent gaming that wow provided. But lets face it... This is where MMO's come to die.
 
Many try to duplicate, and none can keep up with it. World pvp became irrelevant, and contested mobs, only existed for its original incarnation.
 
Yes here we had come along that gave us treasure for all, and ample opportunity for everyone to be rewarded. No more dark days of being shut out of your chance, no more worrysome chances of you losing hard earned gear to the zone campers... Here we have found the happy medium for all gamers.
 
If you want to pvp! There is an app for that.. If you want to Craft! There is an app for that... if you want to... you get the point.
 
In summary
Sorry this is long, and probably boring. But I will say this. What you feel, is what even new gamers feel. When your wants and needs are saited in a hour of game time, rather than months of trying and failing. You want more... then you get it again, quickly and with little effort. This is how MMO's have failed over and over again. Far to much pleasing of the Audience, and far to little restraint in terms of satisfaction.
 
If an MMO, is going to revolutionize the way we play.. they need to figure out what the happy restrictive medium is going to be again.
 
For me, that would be a game Like EQ, as dangerous and UO, but as entertaining as WoW. With some hard work sprinkled on top, and most importantly... no monthly fee. (I'm good with DLC's!) but make em optional.
 
Sorry this didn't help.
 
(Edited some stupidity)
 
  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

 
OP  8/28/12 6:56:47 PM#19
Originally posted by Whiskey76
CerebralM,
 
I can pretty much agree with you on your Online gaming progression, I too went from UO->EQ->DAoC->Wow->Yadda yadda yadda (Nothing has been too earth shattering since)
 
 
Probably the single most changing thing, was age, career family. Many times with previous games it was easier for me to delve deeply, and get excited about things that went on in them, but as the time passed I have slowly, but not assuredly, lost interest.
 
As I see new MMO's now, I feel like the biggest things that made me lose interest was things lost in each game.
 
Let me give a list of things that have dissappeared, from gaming, that I believe really needs to make a comeback, just for reading pleasure and purely opinionated.
 
UO
Oh boy, here is the big one. For me the best part of a game is what can be lost by being at the wrong place and the wrong time. Nothing was even close to this in recent memory, other than UO.
 
What I lost when I quit playing, was a sense of danger. Some caused by coming across a Lich in the woods, and the inevitable rush to get back to your items, before someone else happened by them, Hurray! corpse run OoOooOO. Or worse, going tra-la-la-ing along in a dungeon, when a portal opens and out pours 5-7 nasty and very red murdeous bastards, that will "Corp Por" and "Un Vas Flam" you and your horse, then cut up you up into pieces and leave, with all your goods... ALL YOUR GOODS! 
 
This was a designed element of the game. You either coped with the loss, or better.. formed friends that would band with you, and get some payback, and not the sorta payback of just getting a kill... no... you found out around town, or paid people to find out, where the "reds" lived, got your buddies together, and camped out waiting for them to come home. Ambushed them, took their keys, cut them up into pieces and ransacked all their ill gotten goods, then proceeded to create recall runes and key duplicates for everyone they harmed the same... Oh man. This game truely had it all, an nothing since has come close.
 
The pure human element in this game, from player run towns, to housing and danger of the unknown. Yea.. that kept me playing.
 
Then along came EQ.
 
EQ
About 2 weeks after lauch of this game, I went from blue to a "zek" and never turned back. The biggest thing to know about a zek, if you never played eq, was, this is were pvp rained down 24/7.
 
No stupid battle grounds, or matched games, oh no.. in this beaut of a game, if you wanted glory and booty, you needed to fight for it, the pve element was there, oh yes... who remembers 70 man raids? But not only that, the Dragons or "planes of existance" you raided, were hotly contested, and once they were dead. They stayed dead, for a week.
 
PVP was less threatening, and even more so once they "fixed" it, but before that you could simply take 1 item that was not bound to the player.... I think EQ invented the whole "Bind on Equip" , if you were wondering why it came into being, it was because of PVP, well in my honest opinion it was anyways. Well they removed that, but it did not change the desire to do battle for bosses.
 
I think this is what we lost in EQ, no more constant contesting for mobs, meant no real purpose to having better gear. The better gear made you stronger, the stronger you were, the better chance you had to do battle against your enemies (In this case other players), Good lord fighting trolls with Fungal Tunics sucked! Yes... Yes... I miss this much. The importance of guild was sooo important for this game play.
 
Then... along came WoW (Gonna Skip DAOC, cause that took gaming a different direction)
 
WoW
Whelp, I do not want to discredit the years of change and excellent gaming that wow provided. But lets face it... This is where MMO's come to die.
 
Many try to duplicate, and none can keep up with it. World pvp became irrelevant, and contested mobs, only existed for its original incarnation.
 
Yes here we had come along that gave us treasure for all, and ample opportunity for everyone to be rewarded. No more dark days of being shut out of your chance, no more worrysome chances of you losing hard earned gear to the zone campers... Here we have found the happy medium for all gamers.
 
If you want to pvp! There is an app for that.. If you want to Craft! There is an app for that... if you want to... you get the point.
 
In summary
Sorry this is long, and probably boring. But I will say this. What you feel, is what even new gamers feel. When your wants and needs are saited in a hour of game time, rather than months of trying and failing. You want more... then you get it again, quickly and with little effort. This is how MMO's have failed over and over again. Far to much pleasing of the Audience, and far to little restraint in terms of satisfaction.
 
If an MMO, is going to revolutionize the way we play.. they need to figure out what the happy restrictive medium is going to be again.
 
For me, that would be a game Like EQ, as dangerous and UO, but as entertaining as WoW. With some hard work sprinkled on top, and most importantly... no monthly fee. (I'm good with DLC's!) but make em optional.
 
Sorry this didn't help.
 
(Edited some stupidity)
 

 

I actually think you've made a great point here. Its Ennui. Games have become all reward and no risk. They have become independant for players and not interdependant. Not saying this is a "bad thing" persay for alot of people. But what is a game that you can't lose at all? If there is no possibility for loss than there is no joy from accomplishment or shared positive experiences with the people you accomplished things with.