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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » P2P and F2P are both dead...Long live B2P! (like GW2)

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71 posts found
  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/23/12 3:01:22 PM#41
Originally posted by Calerxes

So the skinny is... You're going to have to pay either way it just boils down to HOW MUCH!... there endith the life lesson kids 

If human beings were rational actors in the economic world, sure.  There'd be no difference in paying a monthly fee (though daily would be better perhaps), B2P, or F2P.

We are NOT rational actors however.  Impulse buying results in irrational buying practices.  Being invested in something or having pay be automatic results in irrational practices.  We can get psychologically conditioned to perform the same behave repeatedly, even if it isn't very fun compared to other things we could do.

Given that, different business models are not equal.

  Trudge34

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

8/23/12 3:06:23 PM#42
I don't think the P2P model is close to dead yet. The problem lately is that there really hasn't been an MMO for most that is worth the sub since probably WoW came out. If the game has enough content, not just the treadmill, linear quest and gear grinds of late but more open world with exploration, push for a community feeling and longevity, I think the sub model would do just fine. The last MMOs I've tried I've been disappointed with because I can get all that style of gameplay on my single player / lobby games. If I'm paying for an MMO, I want something that's truely unique to the gaming world and the genre. That just has not been the case in the last handfull of years unfortunatley.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4630

8/23/12 3:08:03 PM#43


Originally posted by reicht

Originally posted by GeezerGamer Lots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid.  Playing one of each class is free.

Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind?
Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.


Also, since we are talking about B2P but not limited to GW2 but also possible future titles, that option may or may not be available.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/23/12 3:13:15 PM#44
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 


Originally posted by reicht

Originally posted by GeezerGamer Lots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid.  Playing one of each class is free.

 

Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind?
Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.

 

Personally, I don't know.  I don't think we have much of an idea about how much gold a gem would cost.

On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games.  Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear.  Given that you could pool together the gold on 5 characters to get the 6th, 7th, and 8th slot, I'm not sure how unfeasible it is.  We'll have to see.

I'd note that 5 slots is enough to do every crafting profession and since resource nodes are unique to you, its easier to "farm" resources if you want and the DE system makes the world more interesting while you do it (and you'll be getting gold and such, which you wanted anyway).

  kalinis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1444

8/23/12 3:13:57 PM#45

Why would b2 play kill free 2 play thats stupid. In free 2 play games u have nothing to buy if u dont want to ever, In buy to play u have to actually buy a game to play, 

Also gw2 has a cash shop just like any free 2 play game, Yea some free 2 play titles sell stuff that gets them the title buy to win, But alot of free 2 play games are purely cosmetic and leveling help, 

Games that only sell things for your house or for looks as far as gear goes or mounts and pets and things like that, as well as character slots  and leveling potions, 

Free 2 play isn't going anywhere, I think the sub type game is going away as u can see with tor and other games, That said there will always be a few sub games also, Free 2 play is the new norm, 

Buy 2 play will never kill a genre where u can play anytime u want and get intoa  game with no barrie whatso ever, U can choose to spend or not to spend money on, Free 2 play is here to stay and no way does buy to play kill that. 

  nolic1

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

8/23/12 3:24:09 PM#46
Can I say this whole b2p f2p and p2p fight has been going on in forums sense people learned about them and it really will not go to far because everyones opinion on it is different. As to the Gem buying with gold I did it during the BWE1-3 and all 5 stress tests I was in and its easy to get gems infact I had 758 on my last count and mostly bought with in game silver not one gold just  silver and then when I sold 100 of my gems to see the return I got 3 gold and this was during beta not launch so there is no real way to determine the value of gold to gems or gems to gold till about a year after launch by then the market should be stable enough to decide.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4630

8/23/12 3:26:12 PM#47


Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

Originally posted by reicht

Originally posted by GeezerGamer Lots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid.  Playing one of each class is free.
  Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind? Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.  

On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games.  Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear. 


And that's a good idea, But if it's as you say (I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate)...If gold isn't needed to spend on lots of things.....Why then would I sell my Gems to you for it if I bought them from the CS?
Wouldn't I have all the gold I need by then as well....since we aren't spending it as much?


I mean, yeah, I know there will be those who for whatever reason will need gold fast and so the'll convert cash to gems....But overall, it's going to be fewer people as a whole selling gems and probably will only sell as much as they need to whatever purpose....

My point is, I think Gems will be VERY expensive to buy in game.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1606

8/23/12 3:29:17 PM#48
dont know about you but I love playing my MMO which is 100% free to play....for me that is.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/23/12 3:35:48 PM#49
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 


Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

Originally posted by reicht

Originally posted by GeezerGamer Lots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid.  Playing one of each class is free.
  Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind? Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.  

 

On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games.  Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear. 


 

And that's a good idea, But if it's as you say (I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate)...If gold isn't needed to spend on lots of things.....Why then would I sell my Gems to you for it if I bought them from the CS?
Wouldn't I have all the gold I need by then as well....since we aren't spending it as much?


I mean, yeah, I know there will be those who for whatever reason will need gold fast and so the'll convert cash to gems....But overall, it's going to be fewer people as a whole selling gems and probably will only sell as much as they need to whatever purpose....

My point is, I think Gems will be VERY expensive to buy in game.

No doubt.

But to put it in WoW terms (I hope we are both familiar with how much gold is worth).  If a new character is say 20-40k gold then that's quite expensive.  However, it is something you can do.  If it is 100k or 200k, then that's out of reach for most people and quite a different thing.

There certainly ARE things to spend money on.  You could buy crafting goods on the AH for instance.  There will be buying cosmetic items and other things as well.

So we'll have to see how it goes.  Though personally, I don't think 10 bucks for another few hundred hours of content on a new character is all that bad.  Though, I grant there are some diminishing returns as the more characters you have run through a zone, the more likely it is that it won't have as much you haven't seen before.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1659

8/23/12 3:36:41 PM#50
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 


SNIP!    

 

So the skinny is... You're going to have to pay either way it just boils down to HOW MUCH!... there endith the life lesson kids 


 


and for how long.

 

I'm old but always learning, thanks 

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

8/23/12 3:41:34 PM#51
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Iselin

I've been having a discussion partly about this in another forum here far, far away... But I'm curious to hear the opinions from the Pub inhabitants.

 

I'm basically saying that Guild Wars 2, regardless of what you think of it, is a game changer for MMO financial models. GW2 is a full-featured MMO with robust PVE and PVP content, complex crafting, etc. And yet, they are continuing to use the same GW1 financial "Buy the Box... and that's it" model.

 

When Gw1 did this back in 2005, it was an exciting new no-sub model for something that resembled an MMO. Unfortunately that's all it was: a resemblance. No AAA MMO needed to worry because what they all provided was a much larger and better product. So the monthly sub P2P model carried on largely unchallenged. 

 

Sure, Arenanet has always had a cash shop where you could buy outfits and extra character slots all along and this will continue with GW2. But don't confuse this with the typical "Free" to play game where the content packs, races, classes and items in the cash shops are much more than just "nice but not needed" options. You actually do get everything you need in the initial payment with GW2 just like you did with GW1.

 

The stuff in the GW2 cash shop will generate some extra revenue, sure. But it isn't anything Arenanet is relying on to make ends meet. They will make their profit from the box sales. Anything else will just be gravy.

 

So... what justification is there now for having a monthly subscription for any MMO? Can't other companies budget to make their profit off the original purchase just like many other PC and console games--with very similar development costs to MMOs--have been doing for years?

 

Threads like this are the EXACT issue I have with GW2 "fanbois".

 

NO, P2P (without cash-shop) is the superior choice. One flat MONTHLY LOW rate of $15/mo for unlimited access that puts everyone on a level playing field regardless of real-world advantages (ie: more money than other people to spend on in-game fluff). People who complain about P2P either are college students or believe that they're owed something. An MMO is a business, and if it is a good business P2P prospers like a mofo (look at WoW, if B2P or F2P were superior they'd go that route, didn't because they're both inferior for businesses).

 

I bought B2P simply because it is worth the one-time payment of $80 (digital deluxe), and I won't be spending another dime on it until the expansion rumored for around this time next year for $60.

If GuildWars2 were P2P I wouldn't play it because it isn't high enough quality for P2P, but for a B2P it fits the bill perfectly.

If GuildWars2 were purely F2P with cash-shop it'd fall on its face.

 

A-Net knew what they were doing with GW1 & 2 when they went B2P route the first time around, and B2P + Cash-Shop this time around.

 

However, I've yet to find a quality F2P game EVER. They're all x-P2P because they failed so hard they had to go onto the "life-raft" known as F2P to keep the "Big Wigs" in a position to make money.

 

P2P will remain the best for quite some time due to server costs & content development costs for the best quality.

How does one determine what is high enough quality for a subscription?

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4630

8/23/12 3:41:45 PM#52


Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

Originally posted by reicht

Originally posted by GeezerGamer Lots of things.
Just so you know, you can buy cash shop money with in game currency, thus rendering your entire argument invalid.  Playing one of each class is free.
  Oh? So, you want to turn your enjoyable (casual?) GW2 experience into a Gold Grind? Do you have any idea how much gold you will end up needing in the end to purchase 3 character slots and how long it will take to grind the gold to get them? Will attempting to acquire that much gold leave you with enough gold in the game to do what you otherwise might want to do? While it may be possible, is it feasible without ruining the very reason you are playing the game in the 1st place? I played Rappelz. I remember how unrealistic it was to grind Rupees to get Stam Pots from the AH.  
  On the other hand, I find that over time I end up having a ton of extra gold in these games.  Since there's no gear progression I won't be spending it to get better gear. 
  And that's a good idea, But if it's as you say (I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate)...If gold isn't needed to spend on lots of things.....Why then would I sell my Gems to you for it if I bought them from the CS? Wouldn't I have all the gold I need by then as well....since we aren't spending it as much? I mean, yeah, I know there will be those who for whatever reason will need gold fast and so the'll convert cash to gems....But overall, it's going to be fewer people as a whole selling gems and probably will only sell as much as they need to whatever purpose.... My point is, I think Gems will be VERY expensive to buy in game.
No doubt.

But to put it in WoW terms (I hope we are both familiar with how much gold is worth).  If a new character is say 20-40k gold then that's quite expensive.  However, it is something you can do.  If it is 100k or 200k, then that's out of reach for most people and quite a different thing.

There certainly ARE things to spend money on.  You could buy crafting goods on the AH for instance.  There will be buying cosmetic items and other things as well.

So we'll have to see how it goes.  Though personally, I don't think 10 bucks for another few hundred hours of content on a new character is all that bad.  Though, I grant there are some diminishing returns as the more characters you have run through a zone, the more likely it is that it won't have as much you haven't seen before.



On that, I agree......I fully plan to drop some extra bucks to get the slots and content....And anything else that I feel so inclined to do so.


That's the plus side of a Cash Shop. If I don't want to grind it out, I don't have to.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2422

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

8/23/12 3:49:55 PM#53

I think if the game is good enough, most people will be perfectly happy to pay the subscription fee.  There just hasn't been any progressive sub-based mmos released in the past few years.  Its the same reason why everybody goes back to their WoWs and Eve onlines, leaving games like Warhammer, SWTOR, Aion, and other games being deemed a failure.

If a quality sub-based mmo comes out that is on par with games like Eve and WoW, then the argument about sub-based type games being dead would cease to exist.

Also, Free to play is definitely not dead and it is by far the strongest of the three in terms of player rention and CCU.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

8/23/12 4:05:53 PM#54
Most games are developed by borrowing cash (from the company itself, investors, banks) to begin the project.  The initial sale usually is to pay back most if not all of this cash and interest, hopefully with some profit.  This means a B2P game has to then generate more money outside of the box sales (ie. cash shops that people will actually buy stuff in) for further development or be so good that future investors are willing to front money for expansion content with the belief that the return is coming for fronting cash.  That is the flaw of F2P and B2P.  P2P if the game is good can generate the operating cash and development cash if the game succeeds.  The true test for GW2 will be the quality and quantity of future updates to the game.
  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2438

8/23/12 6:44:52 PM#55


Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Xiaoki The only difference between a Buy to play and a Free to play is that with Buy to play you have to pay an upfront charge to play. Ive been playing DCUO for 8 months and Ive spent less money on DCUO than Ive already spent on GW2. So, how is the Buy to play superior again?
You tell me.  You bought GW2.

What about its design appealed to you that DCUO lacked? (and I'd note, DCUO was originally designed as a P2P game).



What are you talking about?


GW2 is a pretty good MMO so Id play it if it was free to play or monthly fee.


However, if GW2 was free to play it would cost me less money to play it.

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1108

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

8/23/12 7:03:17 PM#56
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Iselin

I've been having a discussion partly about this in another forum here far, far away... But I'm curious to hear the opinions from the Pub inhabitants.

 

I'm basically saying that Guild Wars 2, regardless of what you think of it, is a game changer for MMO financial models. GW2 is a full-featured MMO with robust PVE and PVP content, complex crafting, etc. And yet, they are continuing to use the same GW1 financial "Buy the Box... and that's it" model.

 

When Gw1 did this back in 2005, it was an exciting new no-sub model for something that resembled an MMO. Unfortunately that's all it was: a resemblance. No AAA MMO needed to worry because what they all provided was a much larger and better product. So the monthly sub P2P model carried on largely unchallenged. 

 

Sure, Arenanet has always had a cash shop where you could buy outfits and extra character slots all along and this will continue with GW2. But don't confuse this with the typical "Free" to play game where the content packs, races, classes and items in the cash shops are much more than just "nice but not needed" options. You actually do get everything you need in the initial payment with GW2 just like you did with GW1.

 

The stuff in the GW2 cash shop will generate some extra revenue, sure. But it isn't anything Arenanet is relying on to make ends meet. They will make their profit from the box sales. Anything else will just be gravy.

 

So... what justification is there now for having a monthly subscription for any MMO? Can't other companies budget to make their profit off the original purchase just like many other PC and console games--with very similar development costs to MMOs--have been doing for years?

 

Threads like this are the EXACT issue I have with GW2 "fanbois".

 

NO, P2P (without cash-shop) is the superior choice. One flat MONTHLY LOW rate of $15/mo for unlimited access that puts everyone on a level playing field regardless of real-world advantages (ie: more money than other people to spend on in-game fluff). People who complain about P2P either are college students or believe that they're owed something. An MMO is a business, and if it is a good business P2P prospers like a mofo (look at WoW, if B2P or F2P were superior they'd go that route, didn't because they're both inferior for businesses).

 

I bought B2P simply because it is worth the one-time payment of $80 (digital deluxe), and I won't be spending another dime on it until the expansion rumored for around this time next year for $60.

If GuildWars2 were P2P I wouldn't play it because it isn't high enough quality for P2P, but for a B2P it fits the bill perfectly.

If GuildWars2 were purely F2P with cash-shop it'd fall on its face.

 

A-Net knew what they were doing with GW1 & 2 when they went B2P route the first time around, and B2P + Cash-Shop this time around.

 

However, I've yet to find a quality F2P game EVER. They're all x-P2P because they failed so hard they had to go onto the "life-raft" known as F2P to keep the "Big Wigs" in a position to make money.

 

P2P will remain the best for quite some time due to server costs & content development costs for the best quality.

And I counter your argument by saying I will probably never play a P2P game again.  I dont care about the companies financials. I care about how quality the product is and do I enjoy playing.  I cant justify spending 180/year for something that I wont play every day of the year.  I just cancelled my SOE Pass for 19.99/month.  I wont play the SOE games enough to warrant the cost.  I wish P2P 'fanbois' would stop saying that its better just because they cant figure out how to choose their own options.

Cash shops dont bother me and sometimes will spend in them.  By paying 60 dollars for box what limitations do I have in GW2?  And if you are talking about other F2P titles (which I play often) I dont see a limitation there either.  I can play to max level, CS is there for gear and XP booster packs.  I DO believe there are WRONG ways to implement F2P but thats up to the developer. A bad implementation in my eyes will always be a fail in my book.  I think Perfect World is a bad implementation, but more than enough people think differently to keep it going.  What works is always about hooking a core audience or certain type of gamer.

You have no evidence to back up if GW2 was F2P it would fall on its face.  Just say its your opinion of what you THINK might happen.  If I THINK differently does that make me wrong? Its subjective without empirical evidence.

The x-P2P games failed so hard because they implemented the wrong model, which really speaks to what they were offering for the price you pay for the month.  SWTOR is a great quality game.  But its content is not worth 15/mo.  Bioware learned this the hard way... and guess what they are going F2P soon.  And when that happens Ill play all 8 stories... because now the game is on my terms (not theirs).

And to your argument that P2P is better because it offsets server costs is rediculous.  By that logic no F2P game would ever survive.  And since they do it means there are other ways to cover those costs (of which neither of us know how they are structured or paid).

I cant predict the future of F2P but I surely hope it is here to stay.  P2P to me is a rip-off.  And I dont believe developers will deliver enough content/quality these days to support it.

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

8/23/12 7:06:24 PM#57
Funny because the cash shop is the only reason I won't be playing GW2. I stay away from all cash shop games. These companies are starting to realize that people will be dumping tons of money on these cash shops just so they have a chance to win and have an advantage over ther players. It's like going to the casino with your debit card and they are preying on these compolsive spenders.

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1108

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

8/23/12 7:07:53 PM#58
Originally posted by Grunch
Funny because the cash shop is the only reason I won't be playing GW2. I stay away from all cash shop games.

Interesting... why does a CS scare you away?  What is the risk?

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

8/23/12 7:09:31 PM#59
Originally posted by darkhalf357x
Originally posted by Grunch
Funny because the cash shop is the only reason I won't be playing GW2. I stay away from all cash shop games.

Interesting... why does a CS scare you away?  What is the risk?

Whats the reward? "Yay I bought Win"?

 

No matter what, it will eventually come down to items being "required" in order to compete. Thats how this business model works.

 

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/23/12 7:11:57 PM#60
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Xiaoki The only difference between a Buy to play and a Free to play is that with Buy to play you have to pay an upfront charge to play. Ive been playing DCUO for 8 months and Ive spent less money on DCUO than Ive already spent on GW2. So, how is the Buy to play superior again?
You tell me.  You bought GW2.

 

What about its design appealed to you that DCUO lacked? (and I'd note, DCUO was originally designed as a P2P game).



What are you talking about?

 


GW2 is a pretty good MMO so Id play it if it was free to play or monthly fee.


However, if GW2 was free to play it would cost me less money to play it.

What I mean is, you decided to buy GW2.  If you thought it was a rip-off compared to DCUO, then I would presume you wouldn't have bought it.  Clearly GW2 is doing something better than DCUO in your mind.  Since I am unfamiliar with your mind, I asked you to explain it to me.

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