Originally posted by Tardcore

Sorry but the gaming business is just like any other business. If a company makes a shoddy product and is seen to have failed in delivering its promises to is customer base then it is quite normal for said angry customers to not only not want to do business with that company, but to also hope that company goes out of business.

 

And as a business it is up to the company to make sure they are selling a quality and wanted product so they can continue to make sure they can look after their own employees well being.

 

Putting all that off on the consumer who you blame for not counting the human cost of being vocally angry at what they perceive to be a shoddy company is patently ridiculous.

 

Customers are the life blood of any business. A company that forgets or exploits them as we have seen quite a lot with game makers these past years, do so at their own peril.

 

In case of exploitation is when we should rise up against a company to inact change in its practices...not to drive it to ruin.  We should always do this if a corporation does truly exploit or otherwise misuse its customers (or employees for that matter)....and not just because they , in the case of mmos, made a game without a "LFG" feature at launch.

TC--game companies don't "exploit" you.  Drama.  Divisive.  Over-exaggerated. 

You're a volunteer, as a customer.  If you find the service unacceptable, you can withdraw from the contract.

It's a corporation, it's totally ok to treat them with disrespect.  Their people lose their jobs, and gamers applaud about it.  "I paid for a minor cost, I'm entitled to be nasty."  Sorry?  Did mom teach us that?

The only thing we ever hear about is how maligned the poor customer is.  Rights.

We never, ever heard about his responsibility to behave other than a raving lunatic,  just once in a while. Responsibilities.

We've only had half of the conversation.

 Very true.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Sorry but the gaming business is just like any other business. If a company makes a shoddy product and is seen to have failed in delivering its promises to is customer base then it is quite normal for said angry customers to not only not want to do business with that company, but to also hope that company goes out of business.

 

And as a business it is up to the company to make sure they are selling a quality and wanted product so they can continue to make sure they can look after their own employees well being.

 

Putting all that off on the consumer who you blame for not counting the human cost of being vocally angry at what they perceive to be a shoddy company is patently ridiculous.

 

Customers are the life blood of any business. A company that forgets or exploits them as we have seen quite a lot with game makers these past years, do so at their own peril.

 

Lets just say this.
Most of us probably don't wish to see individual MMOs fail. We don't want to see studios and publishers fail.

What we want to stop is this trash concept that says the players will spend th emoney 1st then maybe later we can try to deliver some worthy product.

I never wanted TSW to fail as an MMO. What I want to fail is this greedy hybrid revenue model associated with TSW

I never wanted SWTOR to fail. I want the idea that companies can take shortcuts make an incomplete, malfunctioning clone of another game, add a gimmick and think it's a recipe for major success just because it carries an IP that everyone wants.

Money is earned by providing value. Put something out that is worth something and people will pay what it's worth.

It's that simple. The Sub model is not dying. Quality games are dying. An original quality title that delivers will command $15.00/mo. Honest, it will.

F2P is not the instant formula for new lease on life. It's garbage. If the game sucks at 15/m It will suck for free.

Originally posted by DarLorkar

Originally posted by scarybooster
Question: Do you think it's really the developers that don't want innovation or is it investors and parent companies pushing for the "safe" route? All the developers I've talked to are passionate about their games and want to play an innovative new game. Where does this fall through the cracks from development to release?

This is a cop out.

 

Those oh so great dev's that people talk about, have to agree to the terms to get the cash. And/or sell out to the huge companies when they wave enough cash under their noses.

 

Like everything else.. money talks in the end. Dev's get caught up in the end and have to decide how they will choose. Stay true to the dream or cash out.

Unfortunately, here in the real world the dream takes cash to make. And MMOs take a lot of cash and that cash comes with conditions that are out of the developers' hands. Sure they can throw it back in the investors' faces, but when their game comes out, with unfinished features, placeholder animations and a graphics engine that is three years out of date, very few people will play it and many more will want their company to fail and for them never to make another game again... 

Hell that happens with MMOs WITH cash behind them...

Game developers don't go into it for the money (they could make a whole lot more in any number of pure corporate environments), they go into for a love of games. And in a lot of cases their love of games goes way, way beyond that of people who just buy them, play them then bitch about them on the internet as if they're making a difference.

Honestly, I don't want games to fail. However, when I feel they have, I tend to express that feeling .. and sometimes in expressing that feeling .. it could sound like I wanted the game to fail. This is just the way of things with text. It leaves out inflection and hinders certain aspects of conversation, which can lead to a lot more variations in interpretation.

It also doesn't help that we have been spoonfed the exact same basic formula for 10 years. A lot of us tend to sound overly negative because we have been hoping for some very different systems, and getting nothing but the same old same old, in a different color.

Originally posted by Thane

uh god, i know i will get another break for answering this topic... anyway, here we go:

 

imo that's due to kid's attitude nowadays. they are like "nach mir die sinflut!", eg, they think they are the centre of the world, and what they like has to be the good thing. if they dont like it - they want no one else to have fun with it either!

 

don't ask me how that happened, when gaming started, it was all about fun, you didnt like a game? fine, play another game, but we surely did not start 20 page post's about "why not to play castles of dr creep", you had a friend which didnt like all of your favorite games? fine, there are enough tho he liked that you could play if you wanted to play with him.

 

Agreed. So many in the MMO community are selfish, unforgiving, spiteful and just plain indignant.  Wanting your game to succeed over others is one thing. But to actually hope for a game to fail just because you don't like it and don't want to see others similiar to it is just plain disgusting and low. It's take a really shallow human being to root for failure. 

Quote: "Now, imagine going up to them and telling them that you actively wished or wanted for the business they were in to fail in some way, and then tell them that you either “knew” they were going to fail based on “facts” you had about their job or that their loss is a total net gain for the future of the industry because they did a shoddy job with their product and therefore their culling was entirely justified and can be used as an example in the future."

I can imagine this, how about the banking industry, wall street, and every other crooked business practices that have brought global depression upon us. Greed is always the number 1 factor so wanting to see those kind of people fail is real high on my list.

In regards to games look at the garbage that is being spun out because of too much hype from gamers and developers. If I really have to provide examples then you're not a true gamer so don't even try to understand.

Originally posted by Icewhite

TC--game companies don't "exploit" you.  Drama.  Divisive.  Over-exaggerated. 

You're a volunteer, as a customer.  If you find the service unacceptable, you can withdraw from the contract.

It's a corporation, it's totally ok to treat them with disrespect.  Their people lose their jobs, and gamers applaud about it.  "I paid for a minor cost, I'm entitled to be nasty."  Sorry?  Did mom teach us that?

The only thing we ever hear about is how maligned the poor customer is.  Rights.

We never, ever heard about his responsibility to behave other than a raving lunatic,  just once in a while. Responsibilities.

We've only had half of the conversation.

Companies don't exploit customers? In the case of games such as The Sims 3 or anything by Cryptic I think you'll find many people that disagree with you. Its very much an matter of opinion by the individual, you or I aren't the end all be all authority.

And certainly the customer can withdraw their patronage from a company whose goods and/or services they feel are substandard. Those same customers also have to the right to express to others their feelings on aforementioned poor quality goods and/or services. Which is not just my opinion but something backed up by quite a bit of consumer law in many countries around the world

The consumers only "responsibilty" is to be exactly that, a consumer. And really that isn't a responsibility either, its a privilege. Just as its a company's privilege to recieve money from a customer in exchange for its goods or services. The only actual responsibility at all is on the side of the business who is responisible for the creation, promotion, and continued maintainece of their goods or services. Whereby insuring their business remains profitable and their employees remain employed.

And as to the "poor poor maligned companies" argument, I scoff at the "We've only heard half of the conversartion" comment, as just which side here has multi-millions to throw away on advertising campaigns and lawyers fees, because it certainly isn't the fucking consumer.

No. I reject this article outright because it tries to place everyone into a box.

I have spoken out at LENGTH about some games...not because I want them to fail just to fail. If a company says one thing, does another...if a company advertises one thing, but the product is another...I SPEAK OUT.

I will ALWAYS SPEAK OUT. Its my money, I am a consumer and I have been a part of this genre back when consumers HAD POWER and could effect the direction of the games not only after release but BEFORE it. And I know this from PERSONAL experience having been in the ALPHA and BETA tests of Asherons Call and Ever Quest.

If it wasnt for the beta testers Asherons Call wouldnt have had the ability to bind to either a dungeons portal or recall to that portal...we demanded it, we got it...we even got them to add an entirely new spell line...item magic. It was all thought up by testers as well as the ability to move out of the way of magic and arrows...the genres first DODGE...and it wasnt a dodge button...it was just moving out of the way.

Todays players, are of the powerless consumer mindset. The, shut up and like it type. The, you dont know better than the pros so dont say anything kind...no thank you. If any company thinks thats the way it should be...I hope they fail. lol..so yeah...I will speak out if a game is bad, because its BAD and I will speak out against a company if its bad, because its bad.

It being bad is the reason its going to fail...I dont HAVE to WANT it to fail...it will, because it will. SWTOR is a prime example, I didnt say it was going to fail because I WANTED it to...I said it will fail because it was a steaming pile of bantha poodoo.

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by hardicon

people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

 

Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

 I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results.

 

Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

What would be the purpose of a hobby site like mmorpg.com if not to discuss the relative qualities (both GOOD and BAD) of games?  Your arguement strikes me as the equivalent of going to a Sports forumn and complaining that everyone is talking about Sports.

In terms of succeeding or failing "naturaly"....people will only put as much stock in someones written opinion as they trust that individual. I would also counter that there is absolutely nothing  more "natural" about the marketing (viral or traditional), hype, spin and paid reviews that game publishers engage in to try to sell thier products...then the form of criticism that you describe.

If you've read the thread itself ( I assume you did)  you should've  see I have no problem with saying you hate or like a game. I have an issue with other people saying you should hate and like a game.Exchange views and disagree  (like I'm doing now) but don't try to tell me what I or others should like.Especially if its just by shit-talking a game. I also have no problem on a company hyping or spinning its own product. I have a problem with trash-talking other products. Much like the shit throwing chimps running for political offices...on any side. Negative campaigning is bullshit . If you can't produce proof of the value of your product (even if its just why you like something) then shut the fuck up and make way for the next new thing. That or make a better product (or your product better). If your product is shit...saying the other guy's product is shit doesnt make yours any less shitty. If your product is decent...say how and it will stand on its own. Will my beliefs change what goes on...no. It's just how I feel. Just infantile wishes for a more even handed and peaceful way of doing things...I know it will never happen.

Anyway..a bit off tangent but still relevant imo.

Who's trying to tell you what you should like/dislike?  Other then advertisers/marketers I don't see anyone doing that here? I do see people passionately expressing thier own preferences....and sometimes hoping to see those preferences expressed in the market,...but that's pretty much it.

It would be rather pointless for me to try to tell you what you should like/dislike anyway, wouldn't it?  I mean for all I know you might like peanut-butter and sardines on rye with mustard. Some people do....and no amount of my expressing my own opinion about that particular combination of flavors would be likely to change that. I can only hope that not too many restaurants decide that's the only dish worth serving.

Originally posted by Tardcore

The consumers only "responsibilty" is to be exactly that, a consumer.

We've got to respect every right you can dream up to demand, but not the guy who works for EvilCorp?

How far down the ladder does your right-to-discourtesy extened?  If you have a problem with Walmart, it's ok to hurl epithets at Walmart cashiers?  Does the guy who empties wastecans for tne EA offices deserve your derision too?

"The only actual responsibility at all is on the side of the business who is responisible for the creation, promotion, and continued maintainece of their goods or services."

Basic civics class.  How societies get along.  How you are responsible for behaving towards other people. Simple coutesies, and what happens to cultures that forget them. 

A great many people in American yackyack about their rights constantly, while refusing to acknowledge the commensurate responsibilities.  It's there in the oaths your military still swears...West Point grads "get it", or they don't graduate.

Anyway, there's another much simpler reason -- "Every human being is entitled to courtesy and consideration. Constructive criticism is not only to be expected but sought."--MC Smith

Or "two wrongs don't make a right".

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by hardicon

people should never want a company to fail.  mainly because as you said, there are people involved here and kids that might not eat if mommy or daddy dont bring home  a paycheck.  i know my kids sure wouldnt eat if I didnt. 

not liking a game and not buying a game is totally up to the individual person but the worst part about mmos to me is the players.  it seems like the players dont like any single game out there, all they do is bash every single new game, people see all the negative and think, wow this game must suck, dont buy it.  remember we are living in a society where most people are afraid to make a decision for themself, before they go see a movie they have to see a review of the movie, reviewer says its bad, oops dont go see that movie.  people see these negative comments about a game and think they shouldnt buy it, that simple.  most humans are unable to choose for themselves anymore. 

so next time a game comes out that you just dont like, instead of whining and complaining about it not being this and that, just stay away from it and play something else.

 

Amen. I was just discussing this with a friend.  The majority of gamers seem, to me, to have unrealistic expectations when it comes to mmos and ridiculous justifications. Don't like it...don't play it. It's not enough for these people to poison the well any more..they setup minefields around the fucking well , cut the rope and  remove the bucket.

 I'm sure that many gamers have unrealistic expectations.  But when it comes to this specific topic...

How is wanting a product that you view as superior to succeed, and one that you view as inferior to fail in a free market system in any way unrealistic? 

Maybe the gamers who want games to fail simply see the eventual implications of everyone saying "if I don't like it, I just won't play it!"  What do you reckon would happen if the vast majority of a game's target market says that?

I don't know..why don't we actually let that happen and see the results.

 

Let this person play the game they deem superior , while another person plays the one they deem superior..etc..etc..and not smack talk another game because you think it's inferior to the one you prefer...or worse yet ..go on every forum thread smack talking a game you believe inferior as if it's your personal crusade to save everyone from this "shitty" game. Sure...say you like or hate a game. Maybe even give reasons.That pretty much gets your point across. Anything above that is an attempt at ruin.

I'd rather see a game succeed...but if it fails let it be a natural failure..one formed from real opinion based on personal experience with the game...an opinion untainted by the bile and spit of inexplicably incensed zealots.

What would be the purpose of a hobby site like mmorpg.com if not to discuss the relative qualities (both GOOD and BAD) of games?  Your arguement strikes me as the equivalent of going to a Sports forumn and complaining that everyone is talking about Sports.

In terms of succeeding or failing "naturaly"....people will only put as much stock in someones written opinion as they trust that individual. I would also counter that there is absolutely nothing  more "natural" about the marketing (viral or traditional), hype, spin and paid reviews that game publishers engage in to try to sell thier products...then the form of criticism that you describe.

If you've read the thread itself ( I assume you did)  you should've  see I have no problem with saying you hate or like a game. I have an issue with other people saying you should hate and like a game.Exchange views and disagree  (like I'm doing now) but don't try to tell me what I or others should like.Especially if its just by shit-talking a game. I also have no problem on a company hyping or spinning its own product. I have a problem with trash-talking other products. Much like the shit throwing chimps running for political offices...on any side. Negative campaigning is bullshit . If you can't produce proof of the value of your product (even if its just why you like something) then shut the fuck up and make way for the next new thing. That or make a better product (or your product better). If your product is shit...saying the other guy's product is shit doesnt make yours any less shitty. If your product is decent...say how and it will stand on its own. Will my beliefs change what goes on...no. It's just how I feel. Just infantile wishes for a more even handed and peaceful way of doing things...I know it will never happen.

Anyway..a bit off tangent but still relevant imo.

Who's trying to tell you what you should like/dislike?  Other then advertisers/marketers I don't see anyone doing that here? I do see people passionately expressing thier own preferences....and sometimes hoping to see those preferences expressed in the market,...but that's pretty much it.

It would be rather pointless for me to try to tell you what you should like/dislike anyway, wouldn't it?  I mean for all I know you might like peanut-butter and sardines on rye with mustard. Some people do....and no amount of my expressing my own opinion about that particular combination of flavors would be likely to change that. I can only hope that not too many restaurants decide that's the only dish worth serving.

No one is doing that in this thread but they do plenty of times in other threads when wishing for a game to fail or not to fail... which is what this thread is about. A  good game can prosper on positive word of mouth ....I'm pretty sure it can work the other way around on negative word-of-mouth.

In the not-so-distant past...you would've likely had to have been a politician or religious leader talking about the evils of a particular game and mount a multi-media campaign via TV..Radio...Newspaper/periodicals (spending a good bit of money) to have any effect.. With  the internet, social media and the access to information at an instant..practically anyone can do it these days.

 Ok , I'll speak for myself here. 

First of all I never wished for a MMO to fail , it's just that it is easy to predict how a game will fail inside of a years of release. With all information we have regarding publishers and developers only a naive person cannot predict such failures.

 Example 1 ; The Secret World  (TsW) : How many times have I said this MMO won't be going far? Just watching how AoC failed miserably at launch and still does to this day , it isn't hard to predict how TsW will end up. If Funcom were serious about TsW they should of shut down AoC a few years ago to really put 100% of their efforts on TsW to make it alot more playable and enjoyable.

 Example 2 ; Lord of the rings online (LoTRO) :  This is what happens when you copy exactly what Blizzard did with WoW , and correct me if I'm wrong but LoTRO jump started the term "WoW clone"  , right down to the HP/MP bars.  Now F2P  , it's another MMO that isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Again, when I first watched the game play trailers of LoTRO I asked myself "Is that WoW?"  So yes , another easy failure prediction.

 Example 3 ; Star Wars the old republic (SWtor) : A great example on why not to buy anything labeled EA , seriously disregard anything with a EA label on it , you'll end up disapointed and I have predicted this for a long time , and today the game is F2P.

 Example 4 ; Guild Wars 2 (GW2) : Granted the game isn't released yet , but with NCSoft in charge in one way or another , you just know (it's a natural gut feeling) that the game will take a turn for the worst.

 Example 5 ; Age of Conan (AoC) : You know , I had big hopes for this game and was really hyped , but the launch raped me. I had level 5 gear that was better then level 25 gear , and that was after 2 months! Barely no updates were released! So yeah , AoC was probably one of the rare MMO titles in which I hadn't predicted a failure , but once I've been had , it changed my whole perspective on how to perceive any new releases.

Originally posted by k-damage
Great post Icewhite.

Naw, Pontificating.

But damn it, we used to encourage constructive criticism once upon a time, not just cheer the guy who vents his rage the most colorfully.

Would any of us cheer, if we weren't protected by anonymity?  If we had to watch junior employees walking out of corporate offices with boxes of personal effects?