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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Diablo creator speaks out...has Blizzard arrogance reached new heights?

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129 posts found
  Kost

Newshound

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 2029

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.

8/21/12 11:10:23 AM#21
Originally posted by expresso
David Brevik concived Hellgate London (nuff said) and has bouned around half a dozen studios since blizzard north, he's only ever had sucess while under the nurturing arms of Blizzard - as soon as he can prove himself and a competent developer who does not need his hand held then we might pay attention, right now he's just like one of us who all think we can do better.  Not to say D3 blew me away but I enjoyed some 50 hours in that game.

The nurturing arms of Blizzard?

Dave Brevik created two genre-redefining, award winning games that sparked a fanatical fanbase willing to wait twelve years just for the next installment in the series. He is a large part of the reason that Blizzard are who they are today, to say he has never done anything noteworthy is simply ignorant, to say the least.

He nurtured THEM during his time with the company, not the other way around.

  Grimm666

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/17/04
Posts: 126

8/21/12 11:21:50 AM#22

Given the state of the gaming industry, the sheer number of high-quality games and the overall culture today as opposed to 10+ years ago when Diablo 2 came out, I suspect that if the Torchlight team had released the same game and called it Diablo 3 and gave it the same level of pre-release hype and marketing that D3 had, then they would have seen a similar amount of bashing of their game. The sheer amount of marketing and hype behind it meant far too many people had far too high an expectation of what to expect. People tend to forget alot of D2's features were patched it at a later date. Also, Brevik himself has created flops in this genre (Hellgate), so there may be a bit of "ivory tower" syndrome as someone else mentioned.

That's not to say Diablo 3 is a fantastic game, but its hardly an awful game. There are things about it I like (skill system), things I dislike (story) and things I despise (RMAH). People tend to blow things way out of proportion when looking to relive nostalgia. For examples, see every thread of this forum about the "glory days" of UO, EQ, AC or even classic WoW.

As an aside, Wilson's remarks were way out of line - private Facebook chat or no. Never burn bridges in the industry, simple as that.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

8/21/12 12:27:15 PM#23
Originally posted by Nadia

seems like Wilson will regret his facebook comment

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-21-marvel-heroes-dev-stands-by-diablo-1-and-2-creator-david-brevik-after-diablo-3-designer-says-f-that-loser

As the story developed last night Wilson came in for criticism for his apparent heavy-handed reaction to what was essentially a muted response from Brevik on the controversial Diablo 3.

A number of game developers took to Twitter to share their thoughts. Mark Kern, CEO of Firefall developer Red 5 and former Diablo 2 producer, said: "Gotta say, that Jay Wilson, never having been at Blizzard for D1 and D2 and never having met Dave Brevik, has no place to say what he did.

"Dave Brevik created 2 genre-busting, award winning, world-loved Diablo games. Jay Wilson has done ____ with Diablo 3. Fill in the blanks.

"Blizzard arrogance has reached new heights."

Eurogamer interviewed Brevik at Gamescom, and also asked him about Diablo 3. We will publish his response later today.

We've also asked Blizzard for comment but are yet to receive a response.

 

Here here!

I was never a Diablo fan, but then I'm pretty solidly locked into one style of game only. But it's been very harmful to the industry as a whole that they ignore the people who succeeded and march on with their formulas based on other people's thinking. People who never did the success.

The old addage "good people are hard to find". The worst thing you can do is to luck into finding them, then turn them away in favor of statisticians and marketing geniouses trailing the coattails of their success. People who should be promoted are instead pushed out.

Once upon a time....

  Kost

Newshound

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 2029

In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro.

8/21/12 12:29:33 PM#24
  BACONX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/05
Posts: 234

8/21/12 12:35:17 PM#25

I just hope future StarCraft II expansions aren't affected with the same display of lackluster creativity and incompleteness. Yes, I still enjoy SC2.

  SonofSeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 1897

Find a form
is free to roam

8/21/12 12:48:20 PM#26
The only thing bad about Diablo 3 was the story.

  Zooce

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 589

8/21/12 12:50:22 PM#27
Originally posted by xenogias

 The response from Blizzard employee's who did work on D3 where verry unprofessional.   http://i.imgur.com/mVhWE.png (NSFW!) Thoes are some of the responces he got. Thoes people are lucky they are not my employees. They wouldnt have a job right now. Personal attacks on someone who gave an opinion in a, shall we say nice? way is not tollerated in most professional companies. Thats why I think its not over. Blizzard may not make games the way they used to but thoes comments are being talked about in the gaming community and it doesnt look good for Blizzard.

 

Edit: My personal favorite is them trashing him for making hellgate:london. An easy cheapshot response is simply "Yea I made that. And you made D3 with a budget 100x the size I had. Whats your excuse?"

Interesting how the cover-up is progressing:  https://www.facebook.com/chris.haga.9/posts/419226154780096

 

Thread on d3 forums - Ignoring Jay Wilsons facebook post.

  AtmaDarkwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/04
Posts: 364

8/21/12 12:50:41 PM#28

You do realize it don't matter, right? That companies(Blizzard being one of the largest right now) will continue to 'churn' out games which sell before they even become real(Many people decides to buy d3 before it was even 1/3 though development, once they heard it was being made, that was enough)

 

People are (no offense) stupid. We can't help it. When we make a decision, sometimes nothing can change that choice. Blizzard will continue to use what they gained from the inspired people that have walked in(And out) thier doors over the years, and continue to sweep in the cash. EA does it, bioware(whos ea now) did it, why is it so 'wrong' that blizzard does it. What I mean is, they, all the large souless game 'producing' companies, are heartless, cash hungry, greedy bastards, run by people who only understand one single thing, yet understand that one thing to an almost zen like quality; How to get more money than we have now!

 

We are bound to see many many more 'dead' but shiny games and one or 2 with soul that MAY survive. Big companies will continue to take from thier employee's then toss them out on thier ass right after. And we as buyers(ALL of us) are all going to, some day, make a stupid choice which makes one of these companies richer. Life goes on.

  Zezda

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 707

8/21/12 1:06:40 PM#29

This quote here from Peet from the facebook comments basically sums things up nicely.

 

 

Peet Cooper - I agree with you both. But he never said we made a bad game. Just a different one than what he would have made. I worked on the game for 5 years and I would not be offended (or surprised) if one of the original D1 or D2 artists said we did 

not 'understand' the artistic direction of the franchise. We made drastic changes to many aspects of the game, so its inevitable that some will love it and other will hate it. This happens every time a new team works on an old franchise.
 
  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2702

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

8/21/12 1:13:37 PM#30
Originally posted by Kost
Originally posted by expresso
David Brevik concived Hellgate London (nuff said) and has bouned around half a dozen studios since blizzard north, he's only ever had sucess while under the nurturing arms of Blizzard - as soon as he can prove himself and a competent developer who does not need his hand held then we might pay attention, right now he's just like one of us who all think we can do better.  Not to say D3 blew me away but I enjoyed some 50 hours in that game.

The nurturing arms of Blizzard?

Dave Brevik created two genre-redefining, award winning games that sparked a fanatical fanbase willing to wait twelve years just for the next installment in the series. He is a large part of the reason that Blizzard are who they are today, to say he has never done anything noteworthy is simply ignorant, to say the least.

He nurtured THEM during his time with the company, not the other way around.

So why wasn't he able to repeat his winning formula when he had several opportunities? I'll give you a hint...you cannot win a war with generals alone. He had talent backing up his vision. Not a half dozen, more like a few hundred. I've said this before about people thinking a handful of people are responsible for the success of D1 and D2. And to them I say this:

Go back and review the credits after you finsh and tell me if you only see a handful of staff listed.

No? I thought not. A handful of visionaries may offer a direction on a project, but they are NOT the ones in the trenches and giving feedback about what works and what does not. And it seems to me that Mr. Brevik yet again conveniently forgot about the little people involved. And you know what? I don't blame them one bit for the remarks they made.

They are NOT PR coached into making proper responses when they've be openly attacked for something (no matter how you nor I feel about it) they worked so hard on. So when they do respond you get raw emotions over carefully worded responses. They are real working people, not hindsighted armed, former top brass with an axe to grind. And don't get me wrong, I thank Mr. Brevik for his contribution to the development of D1 and D2, but let's not forget a contribution is NOT the same thing as a pledge. As the latter requires a certain level of good faith and honor.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Bushi131

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 64

8/21/12 1:14:41 PM#31

Like the guyz in Wallstreet thinks that consumers are morons because now they don't buy things as much as they should, those righteous bastards.

Same for D3, maker or producers, whomever had a finger into it is righteous and the gamers /customers are just spoiled idiots.

It's still hurt me that I bought this game and each clic make me work for them ....

I'm on the lookout for activision product, I check everything before to buy a game now, and even it might be a good game, with a bad company behind, i won't buy it, nether for my kids, i try to spread the word as well to friends and familly.

 

Everybody should do the same actually, keep your money away from bad people, even they might sel good stuff, don't suck it.

  Reklaw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

8/21/12 2:27:35 PM#32

Update #2: A few hours later Gazilli0n issued IncGamers with a statement reading

“We admire Blizzard and Blizzard games. David was asked about Diablo 3 and gave his honest opinion and we stand by him 100%. Marvel Heroes is David’s vision and is the spiritual successor to Diablo 2. We’ll be in closed beta soon, so visit MarvelHeroes.com if you want to check it out.” – Leo Olebe, VP Marketing Gazillion Entertainment.

Think Diablo fans might need to be looking out for MarvelHeroes??

On the other hand most sequel games turn out different compared to it's original, especially if the original development team is long gone. Some for the better, unfortunaly many for the worst.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

8/21/12 2:33:10 PM#33

i think it's great. with all of the paid reviews going on it's nice to have someone with some actual weight express something other than blind passion.

of course if he is the only one they will just shrug it off as disgruntled .. and keep whistling to themselves as if nothing is wrong .. but at least it's a start.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/21/12 2:33:44 PM#34
Originally posted by Reklaw

Update #2: A few hours later Gazilli0n issued IncGamers with a statement reading

“We admire Blizzard and Blizzard games. David was asked about Diablo 3 and gave his honest opinion and we stand by him 100%. Marvel Heroes is David’s vision and is the spiritual successor to Diablo 2. We’ll be in closed beta soon, so visit MarvelHeroes.com if you want to check it out.” – Leo Olebe, VP Marketing Gazillion Entertainment.

Think Diablo fans might need to be looking out for MarvelHeroes??

On the other hand most sequel games turn out different compared to it's original, especially if the original development team is long gone. Some for the better, unfortunaly many for the worst.

I don't understand all the hate. D3 is a very fun game and many people have hundreds of hours into it.

Oh, i will definitely look out for Marvel Heroes. Most certainly i will play since it is F2P.

  freegames

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 158

8/21/12 2:42:08 PM#35

Diablo 3 was a success for the Blizzard-Activision, but a failure for gamers.

 

Marvel Heroes looks okay, but with DC universe online competiting I sure hope it is small and easy to play. (not a fan of mmos that are 20-50 gigs and you play for 2-5 hours for the most part) Also hope there isnt some bs stuff like friend bonuses forcing you to team up or you will always lose.

 

Wish there would only be 4 player instances for some quests and at most 12 players for world events.

 

Even though it is called marvel heroes there should at least be some DLC or something that adds villians. (minimum 8) later on. MMMMmmmm City of Heroes vs Villians

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2804

8/21/12 2:44:07 PM#36

I hate the defense of people like Jay Wilson regarding the number of boxes sold.   Yeah it was a great seller, but it didn't sell that money because of Jay Wilson, it sold that many because it was Diablo freaking 3.  It's retention after one month was horrible and they will be hard pressed to sell nearly that many expansion boxes unless they fix everything.

 

It's unprofessional on both sides though really.  But if my team got kicked off of the franchise we made popular, I'd be pretty bitter too.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

8/21/12 2:47:24 PM#37
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I hate the defense of people like Jay Wilson regarding the number of boxes sold.   Yeah it was a great seller, but it didn't sell that money because of Jay Wilson, it sold that many because it was Diablo freaking 3.  It's retention after one month was horrible and they will be hard pressed to sell nearly that many expansion boxes unless they fix everything.

 

It's unprofessional on both sides though really.  But if my team got kicked off of the franchise we made popular, I'd be pretty bitter too.

 

Retention? It is a box game. People finished it and moved on.

  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2912

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

8/21/12 2:52:48 PM#38

Simply put, those who made Diablo 3 did not understand a single thing as to why people liked Diablo 2 and other games of the genre. Taking stuff out and 'dumbing' down the game does NOT make more people want to play it, it makes less want to play it. People liked Diablo 2 a lot with the ability to make builds and design their character as they level and progress them. Sure, the system wasn't flawless (Stats were pretty useless putting them in, granted it still felt satisfying, was pretty much a 'just to get a piece of gear' investment) but it let people feel more connected to a character. Diablo 3 I feel no connection to my character at all. I hit 60 and thats really all she wrote. 

 

While prestige will help a little with the 'progress', it still just doesn't feel the same. Making things ultra casual doesn't get  more players. Sure you can get a larger population willing to try it starting off, but in the end you will have far less as your retention rate will be far less. 

 

The creator of diablo really feels the game betrayed what made diablo, diablo. Even if he wasn't working on it, I'm sure he would of been happy if the game itself had been done right, but instead its so twisted that he frankly isn't happy with it. Its like giving your faovrite stuffed animal to a friend and watching them rip its arm off and damage its button eyes and you can only stand and watch in distaste as they destroy, even if its unintentional.

  SteamRanger

Novice Member

Joined: 10/24/03
Posts: 921

I don''t have to know how to make a better game, I only need to know where the "CANCEL" button is!

8/21/12 3:00:52 PM#39

Hellgate: London is a good game, what there is of it. The big mistake Flagship made with it was trying to do too much at once. A single-player focus with LAN mode would have given the game a solid player base, provided they could keep Bill Roper from spending so much of the budget on PR tours. Plus there was the whole "using your game assets as collateral with foreign investors" thing.

Had they done like Runic did with Torchlight, HG: L would have a couple of expansions under their belts by now. Flagship just tried to do too much too soon.

"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6241

8/21/12 3:39:33 PM#40
I mean hey, can somebody at least explain what the main problem is with D3?

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