Trending Games | World of Warcraft | Dragon Age: Inquisition | EverQuest | World of Tanks

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,905,121 Users Online:0
Games:757  Posts:6,292,643
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » SWTOR - A victim of escalation of commitment?

8 Pages First « 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Search
155 posts found
  sfc1971

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 423

8/20/12 10:32:40 AM#141

I think you got a point but the core cause of bad game design is that most people are very bad at putting two and two together. In a MMO, every design choice affects everything else. And things that sound great during the design phase are just not fun to play.

Game designers don't play their own games. Or rather, they do not PAY to play their own games outside business hours. The average real gamer has a day job and has to pay to play the game in the few spare hours between work and sleep. These gamers are not in the mood for design that seemed a good idea, they want good ideas.

Take the sprint example. How many games can you recall that had speed buffs interrupted by battle and requiring manual re-activation? And now the games that "fixed" this by enabling auto-sprint as it turned out that pressing the sprint button after every fight is just not as much fun as the designers thought. 

You would think designers would realize this and launch a new game with auto-sprint. But no. It is not because designers are complete and utter morons who refuse to learn from other games. They really do believe their "features" enrich the game.

And there your escalation of commitment comes into play. The designers had these ideas and they defended them and surrendering them for the sake of the players... that is hard.

Another example is money sinks, game designers are convinced MMO's need them. So you had your vehicles degrade in SWG and massive long lasting debuffs in Lotro requiring bought potions. All to get in game currency out of the game to avoid the market exploding.

Neither worked. SWG repair was so botchy that people like me just made a ton of cheap throw away vehicles and used those instead. Cheaper and more reliable. In Lotro most just sell the few potions they find because using them is near useless except for a raid bosses as the very second you remove a debuff, you get another one.

There are in the real world two kinds of designers. Artists and industrial designers. The first group are the ones currently making games and they are not very good at it. Especially MMO's. Industrial designers care less about looks or esthetics and care about usability. Simple things like when you poor tea from a kettle, that steam doesn't go over your hand and burn you. You might take that for granted but someone had to think of preventing it and then engineer the product to perform correctly.

Many a MMO feature sounds pretty neat, but is horribly broken and ends up hurting the game. Take TSW. Build any deck you want. It works to a degree, even if your deck is less optimized. You can always group up. And then the game forces you to go through hard solo content which makes it blood clear that not all deck choices are equal.

The problem is that TSW is not a stealth game or a good fight (FPS) game. It is a decent MMO but someone thought that sneak missions were nice and so you run at top speed within meters of oblivious guards. PROBABLY the designer that came up with it imagined a very pretty picture and then it got build and it kinda wasn't. But he was comitted.

SWTOR failed because the designers thought voice would save everything and it turned out it was just window dressing. It is sad that a lower budget game like TSW can do far far better story telling. But why did SWTOR story telling fail? Could it be the light/dark absolutes and the getting approval of companions most of whom don't suit my playstyle?

Three choices:

1. Player can choose story line

2. Players only get rewarded for pure light or pure dark. Grey does not give any boosts.

3. Companions are forced on the player who can't be turned to the light/dark and so you either get constant negative points or base you story line choices on what gives the most companion points.

The funny thing, Bioware DIDN'T use to force companions on you that went against your allignment. In Baldurs Gate you get to choose two bad NPC's or two good ones. But since Kotor, you practically are forced to take complete and utter assholes with you. Assholes you can't just tell to shut the fuck and deal with you being good. Early one, you could sway them a bit but in SWTOR even that was gone.

Someone thought this combo was a good idea. It wasn't. But changing it... impossible.

Same with the absolutly insane crafting. In theory the game would like you to change companions depending on your needs. But the only way to craft is to send them away for up to 3 hours. So how can I switch companions?

And what you can craft with success is based on fixed stats of your companions almost forcing all of class X to be a Y crafter. Someone thought that was a good idea. They were wrong.

But your right, once people are comitted, it is hard to take a step back and look at what all your choices mean when you put it together.

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social. The devs believed the fanboys on the forum that all their ideas were pure gold and the more they believed, the more they were comitted.

  zakin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/09
Posts: 37

8/20/12 10:45:42 AM#142
Great post this was spot on and the beta testers tried to tell them but as is the case with a lot of professional game developers they believed they could not possibly have made a mistake and the testers must all be high school drop outs living in their parents basements well all I can say is if you need the phone number for the unemployment office I can look it up and post it for you
  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/20/12 11:38:37 AM#143
Originally posted by sfc1971

 

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social. The devs believed the fanboys on the forum that all their ideas were pure gold and the more they believed, the more they were comitted.

I'm curious as to how that is not a bad MMO.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  User Deleted
8/20/12 11:41:54 AM#144
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by sfc1971

 

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social.

I'm curious as to how that is not a bad MMO.

 

I take it that you've never played EVE online?

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

8/20/12 12:18:19 PM#145
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by sfc1971

 

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social.

I'm curious as to how that is not a bad MMO.

 

I take it that you've never played EVE online?

ok that's kind of hard to argue against :)

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ajax7

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 367

The Greatest Story Ever Told Yours.

8/21/12 2:37:48 PM#146

Your wrong I went to the FATMAN but once they merged the Servers I went back to my main server and transfered all my toons there to the P5 server.

I think many people did what I did that is why the FATMAN server has declined because people went back to thier 1st server.

Ajax

  Beezerbeez

Novice Member

Joined: 2/22/04
Posts: 264

8/21/12 2:40:15 PM#147
Well done, OP.   Now publish a book for game devs on how to avoid EoC and integrate those measures into strategic processes.  Send me 5% of what you make :D

Noone isn't a word; It's "no one". On a side note, you can guess where the word "none" came from.
------------------------------
Their, There, and They're are not interchangeable.

  sfc1971

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 423

8/22/12 4:51:38 AM#148
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by sfc1971

 

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social. The devs believed the fanboys on the forum that all their ideas were pure gold and the more they believed, the more they were comitted.

I'm curious as to how that is not a bad MMO.

Well, there has been far worse, games that didn't run at ALL (not just badly, just pain didn't work at all) on ATI hardware. Launches that went so bad people couldn't play for days. Games so lacking in content it didn't even survive the first month (Final Fantasy).

Compared to the worsed, SWTOR isn't that bad. It was just soulless. Turns out I am much willing to forgive crippling bugs then blandness.

to me bad means doesn't work.

SWTOR worked, it just was no fun. But yeah, that is bad too.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7304

8/22/12 6:27:27 AM#149


Originally posted by Creslin321

My OP was pretty clear that the voice acting was just part of

Where are the other parts?



Originally posted by Creslin321

For example, myself, and many others brought up the concern that BW"s strategy of making "fully voiced" a flagship feature of the game was problematic in the long-term because it would make creating additional content very cost prohibitive...and in a subscription themepark MMORPG that lives and breathes on content additions...this is not a good thing.  And now we hear that (surprise surprise) SWTOR's additional content won't be fully voiced.

You only talk and give credit to voice overs as a feature, no word about anything else.

You even admit it yourself:


Originally posted by Creslin321

I know I only spoke of voice overs in my OP


Backpedaling is bad but there is no need pushing it further and making it even more ridiculous.

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1424

8/22/12 8:30:07 AM#150
Originally posted by sfc1971
Originally posted by ignore_me
Originally posted by sfc1971

 

SWTOR wasn't a bad MMO, it was just fucking boring, bland looking and anti-social. The devs believed the fanboys on the forum that all their ideas were pure gold and the more they believed, the more they were comitted.

I'm curious as to how that is not a bad MMO.

Well, there has been far worse, games that didn't run at ALL (not just badly, just pain didn't work at all) on ATI hardware. Launches that went so bad people couldn't play for days. Games so lacking in content it didn't even survive the first month (Final Fantasy).

Compared to the worsed, SWTOR isn't that bad. It was just soulless. Turns out I am much willing to forgive crippling bugs then blandness.

to me bad means doesn't work.

SWTOR worked, it just was no fun. But yeah, that is bad too.

Bit harsh on "other games" but what struck me though is that as an mmo the launch was OK; I expected better tbh but it was OK. If SWTOR had been a single player game however the number of bugs would have been considered "typical of EA" - not very good in other words.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10939

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

8/22/12 8:36:09 AM#151


Originally posted by DrDwarf

Originally posted by tiefighter25

Originally posted by Axxar The fully voiced dialogues was actually the best thing about this game, so I gotta completely disagree here. It was other stuff that made me quit the game. The world didn't feel living enough and there were too many load screens - didn't feel like an MMO.
Many would agree woth you. What I was suggesting is that as OP suggested, the game got caught in an escalation of commitment. When they hit a doldrum in the development of the game, they powered through pilling money into the voiced dialogue part. By doing so, they ignored the rest of the game. At the end of the day, they had a neato super expensive dialogue gimmick and a broken engine, lack luster game. Even though you liked the gimmick, the ignored mechanics of the actual game were so poor it caused you to quit. What's worse. Due to the loss of subs and the conversion to FTP; the one part people liked (albeit it wa overspent on) is no longer fiscally viable to continue with. All that is left is to continue developing the part of the game which you didn't care for and a ca$h shop. I don;t think this bodes well for the game's future. But that's besides the point. I believe OP meant for this thread more to look back to try and figure out Bioware's mindset while developing the game as opposed to what the game is today or where it is headed. But I'm even more sure OP can tell you what he thinks for himself.
Yes but to see the faces of the experts in all those pre launch marketing videos we were drip fed you just know they hadn't a clue how bad the gameplay actually was.

Despite all the feedback beta testrers say they gave they literally must have just put their hands in the ears and said la la la la.

I'd fire them too if i thought I was hiring experts and manafgers to manage those experts and I had a bunch of dribbling idiots that couldnt see the train wreck coming.

i dont buy the idea they knew but were acting either...they didnt have a clue how bad their game was for an MMO.

 




I thought the game play was exactly like the videos I saw. Most of the videos cut out the VO content to eliminate spoilers so what was left was the game play and it looked exactly like what I got.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

8/22/12 1:38:15 PM#152
Originally posted by lizardbones

 




I thought the game play was exactly like the videos I saw. Most of the videos cut out the VO content to eliminate spoilers so what was left was the game play and it looked exactly like what I got.

 

I guess  you were more diligent then most people who bought the game having only seen the CGI trailers. To be fair all companies do this, to a certain extent, but SWTOR was the first company who's marketing campaign I saw in mainstream media for a new game launch. I dont recall seeing actual game play for more then a few quick seconds sliced into promo developer interviews. That's of course just my personal experience.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

 
OP  8/22/12 2:32:14 PM#153
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Creslin321

My OP was pretty clear that the voice acting was just part of


 

Where are the other parts?

 



Originally posted by Creslin321

For example, myself, and many others brought up the concern that BW"s strategy of making "fully voiced" a flagship feature of the game was problematic in the long-term because it would make creating additional content very cost prohibitive...and in a subscription themepark MMORPG that lives and breathes on content additions...this is not a good thing.  And now we hear that (surprise surprise) SWTOR's additional content won't be fully voiced.

 

You only talk and give credit to voice overs as a feature, no word about anything else.

You even admit it yourself:

 


Originally posted by Creslin321

I know I only spoke of voice overs in my OP

 


Backpedaling is bad but there is no need pushing it further and making it even more ridiculous.

LOL I'm really not going to bother anymore.  Almost every single person in this thread disagrees with you, that should tell you something.  Either we are all morons, or maybe you are wrong.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

8/24/12 4:00:36 PM#154
Originally posted by Creslin321

First, a definition.  Escalation of commitment occurs when a group is working on a project, and at some point in the project it becomes clear that things aren't going well or maybe even the project's original direction is fundamentally flawed, but instead of stepping back and rethinking things, the group just throws more resources at the project in the hope that things will just "work out."  This may sound stupid, but it's a relatively common problem.  When a group has worked on a project for a long time and invested a lot of resources, sometimes it's tough to admit that mistakes were made early on and rethink things...it can be much easier in the short term to just try to "power through" your difficulties by escalating your commitment to the project.

Now onto SWTOR....

The more I look at SWTOR, the problems it's having, and the solutions that its devs are proposing...the more I think that it was a victim of escalation of commitment.  For example, myself, and many others brought up the concern that BW"s strategy of making "fully voiced" a flagship feature of the game was problematic in the long-term because it would make creating additional content very cost prohibitive...and in a subscription themepark MMORPG that lives and breathes on content additions...this is not a good thing.  And now we hear that (surprise surprise) SWTOR's additional content won't be fully voiced.

I really think that at some point during SWTOR's development, its management had to realize at least on some level that this was a big potential problem.  But instead of stepping back and rethinking things, they just threw more and more resources at the game and plowed forward.

The same can really be said for many of SWTOR's shortcomings such as the single player space combat, the gameplay that apes WoW just a bit too much, and the really half-assed open world PvP.  I really feel like at some point in the middle of the project, the devs probably realized that these ideas were all not as good as they seemed at the onset of the project, but basically just chose to plow forward with a flawed concept instead of stepping back and rethinking things.

In the end, I really think SWTOR would have been better off with a more iterative development process.  All of these systems and ideas should have been prototyped and thoroughly tested, with the knowledge that if it doesn't work, it will be scrapped.  And I think this is important...devs really need to be willing to scrap their ideas if they turn out to not work once you see them "in game."  But I feel like with SWTOR, the developer just plowed forward with their original ideas regardless of if they "worked" or not.

Thoughts?

Problem gets really exacerbated when your dealing with executive management, especialy at public companies. Those folks are put in the positions they are because they are supposed to know how to lead the companies to success. The dirty truth is most of them are actualy pretty clueless about many of the things which are central to what the company does. They are often even pretty clueless basic leadership skills. They may have some expertiese in a specific area like finance, marketing or sales.... but thier primary skills tend to be self-promotion.... i.e. selling thier own self image to others like stockholders, investors and board members. In terms of design,  most of them wouldn't know a quality design from a piss poor one if it dropped on thier head.....even if the company only makes one product.

That would be ok in itself...the person at the executive level doesn't really  need to know the details of designing something. For the ones who have REAL leadership skills, they can easly work around that. They know thier limitations, they put together a team of people who they trust and trust each other and they delegate to decision making to people who have the experiese to make it. They get the team working together toward a common goal. That's real leadership.

The problem is that real leadership is actualy pretty rare at the executive level. The ones who have it, are definately worth alot. What's far more common at the executive level...again especialy at public companies...is expertiese at SELF-PROMOTION. Contrary to the leader...the self-promotion expert CAN'T acknowledge thier own limitations. It runs CONTRARY to thier nature.... contrary to how they got in the postion in the first place. By nature, they are adverse to ackowledging areas of deficiency in thier own knowldge, lapses of judgement or mistakes. This extends also to not allowing thier TEAMS to back-track, admit mistakes or rethink direction.... because they believe that reflects poorly on THEM as leaders, as they were the ones who picked and managed the team afterall.

This can lead to a pretty fatal situation....as such executives often try to intefere in much lower level decisions (micro-manage)  which they aren't equiped to make.... because they need to try to establish the PERCEPTION that they are experts in all areas of the organizations functions.....and when things do start to go wrong, they are unwilling to admit it...even internaly among thier own TEAMS.....and especialy they are unwilling to allow anything that might foster the PUBLIC perception that the TEAM is back-tracking on a decision or changing course because there is something wrong. That often leads to just the situation that Creslin described..... throwing more and more resources at something which clearly isn't working well in the hopes that brute force and expenditure of resources will get it to work, rather then admit the problem. Of course, that only reinforces the motivation to avoid acknowledging the problem or changing course...because now there is even more invested in the existing course.

I honestly think ALOT of failed projects/designs/products can be attributed to that factor.

  EllieAnne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/07/10
Posts: 21

9/05/12 12:50:36 PM#155

What Bioware is doing now shows the inherent contradiction in SWTOR.  So much focus is put on the class storyline but most of the game is grinding the same quests alt after alt (because why wouldn't you play out all 8 storylines?), ridiculous PvP areas, solitary space missions  and flashpoints.  So is it a storyline based MMO or a glorified solofest?  If it is about storylines, then why not have race-based quests too?  Have your Twi'lek discover the truth about the forced migration.  Have your purebred Sith get involved with throwing off their human oppressors. Instead, BW is about adding more of what we don't want in the game.

8 Pages First « 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Search