Originally posted by zigmund

I for one am sick of pve games - in a word boring.

I am also sick of pve games with instanced pvp. Repetitive hamster in a wheel pvp.

Still waiting for the next "Shadowbane"

you and me both buddy, shadowbane was such a good game despite all the bugs.

Well you missed the best pvp game ever UT99.The problem with all pvp is how it plays out with latency/lag/packet loss/frame rates ect ect.

I don't understand the part about team work to take down a target?PVP stands for player versus player.Team pvp involving a target would be more like COD or a Battlegrounds target.

rpg pvp has been done down right awful,i have seen nothing i want to take part in.The reason is movement is limited,map play is not a factor at all,weapons are not balanced enough for all distances and in most games stats and gear matters.So imo it gives us about a 10-20% skill level and the rest is just everything else.RPG's further the problem by trying to add fps like aiming,but needing to access 20 hot keys at the same time,it is counter productive.Other games  make limitations on how many skills you can use.I have this skill but i can't use it?Hmm not very good design.

You see my opinion is that there is no one best way to play,that is what makes a fps the best at pvp.In RPG's you have your best damage,your best  healing ability and really nothing is brought to the table outside the box.Hate tools no longer come into play in pvp either,so half of what you learned to play with in a rpg is removed for pvp combat.

If i did want to play a pvp environment right now in a rpg,it would be FFXI's.It takes place in the real game world,NOT an instance idea.The teams are balanced ,example 5 versus 5 and levels are balanced as well.However gear is to each their own and can make a big difference.

Originally posted by Icewhite

I think "PvP Right" is another of those semantic null forum expressions.  Seems to be about a hundred different ideas of what "right" means, in this thread alone.

Damn, it's almost like a roleplay thread.  The only constant is, no one does it 'right' (except whoever's speaking, of course).

This makes me feel good

Modern PvP is very much a game within a game these days. I agree 100% with your comments about how older games were. Login and play, not worrying about specs and builds. I don't know what was wrong with that either.

That said I'm not in your catagory of unskilled button mashing, I tend to do quite well in PvP but I also tend to use odd specs. I've never been into cookie cutter builds and I don't like following the crowd. I prefer to find something a bit different that works for me.

As for tactics, they make sense. If you use even rudimentary tactics you will always beat "the zerg" which is where most players seem to find themselves in my experience.

I agree that modern PvP does suck, for the most part. "Modern" PvP being instanced battlegrounds where success is driven primarily by gear/stats and the people with more free time.

You (OP) obviously never played the games that had strategy and tactics but they did exist. DaoC and Shadowbane both required all kinds of strategy and tactics as well as skill/teamwork in execution to be successful. I remember our realm in DaoC (Midgard/Percival) would plan for weeks, if not months, for relic raid assaults or other various RvR objectives in web forums prior to doing them in game.  Putting a plan into action and adapting and overcoming was awesome, I had some of the best PvP/RvR times of my life in that game.

Nowadays the large majority wants instant gratification, without having to put in the time/work for the reward. Which brings up the other major fault of modern PvP,  the reward. The reward has transformed from being the thrill of the fight, or the excitement of victory (sometimes defeat)...to what epic purple weapon of godly'ness do I get if I do 500 battlegrounds??? To me, that is the single biggest reason why modern PvP sucks.

I PvP because I am a competitor, I play to crush/win, and there is no better way to test yourself then when against other competitors. Win or lose it is fun (most of the time :) ), I just wish there were more competitors instead of gear grinders around these days...because IMHO, they are the ones that make PvP suck..

Originally posted by justinco

Which brings up the other major fault of modern PvP,  the reward. The reward has transformed from being the thrill of the fight, or the excitement of victory (sometimes defeat)...to what epic purple weapon of godly'ness do I get if I do 500 battlegrounds??? To me, that is the single biggest reason why modern PvP sucks.

This x 1000

I couldn't agree more. Bragging rights used to be all the reward one required, you emerged victorious over your opponent, which was the goal from the start.

Manowar  :  The Warriors Prayer

- Grand Father, Tell Me A Story!
- All Right, Go And Get Your Storybook
- No, No, Not One Of Those, A Real Story
- A Real Story?
- Yes! Tell Me About When You Were A Boy.
- Well, Then, I Shall Have To Take You Back
With Me, A Long Way In Time...

It Was My Thirteenth Year On A Cold Winter's
Day, As I Walked Through The Enchanted Forest,
I Heard The Sounds Of Horses And Men At Arms.
I Felt Compelled To Walk On And Find The Place
Of These Sounds. And When The Forest Did Clear
I Was Standing On A Hill. Before Me There Was
A Great Plane, Atoned The Armies Of The World,
Standing, Waiting. I Thought To Myself, For
Whom Or For What Are They Waiting ?
Suddenly A Gust Of Wind Come Up From The North
There Appeared A Lone Rider, Holding A Sword Of
Steel. Then From The South Came Another, Bearing
A Battle Axe. From The East Came A Third,
Holding A Spiked Club, And Finally, From The
West A Rider Who Wielded A Great Hammer Of War.
With Them Came Their Soldiers Of Death, Followed
By An Army Of Immortals. They Were Few In
Number, But The Look In Their Eyes Told All
Who Beheld Them That They Would Leave This
Day Only In Victory Or Death. And There Was
A Great Silence...

My Heart Began To Pound, Storm Clouds Filled
The Sky With Darkness. Rain Came And Four
Winds Blew With Such Anger That I Held Fast To
A Tree. I Watched The Four Riders Raise Their
Weapons Into The Air. Without Warning, Screaming
Their War Cry They Led The Attack. Down To The
Battle They Ride. They Met The Armies Of The
World With A Mighty Clash! I Could Feel The
Groundshake, The Earth Drank Much Blood That Day.
Each Of The Four, Was Into Himself A Whirlwind
Of Doom !!!

When The Smoke Did Clear, Many Thousands Were
Dead. There Was Much Blood And Gore. Their
Bodies Lay Broken And Scattered Across The
Battle Field, Like Brown Leaves Blown By The
Wind. And I Saw The For Ride Together To The
Top Of The Hill, While Below Them The Soldiers
Of Death Assembled All Those Who Would Now
Swear Allegiance To Them.

And The Four Spoke The Words Of The
Warriors Prayer.

- Gods Of War I Call You, My Sword Is By My Side.
I Seek A Life Of Honor Free From All False Pride.
I Will Crack The Whip With A Bold Mighty Hail.
Cover Me With Death If I Should Ever Fail.
Glory, Majesty, Unity - Hail, Hail, Hail

And As I Stood And Looked On, I Heard The Armies
Of The World Hail Them Without End, And Their
Voices Of Victory Carried Long And Fat Throughout
The Land!

- Well, That's It. Did You Like The Story?
- Yeah, It Was Great!
- Oh, Good, I'm Glad. Now Off To Bed With You.
- Grandfather?
- Yes?
- Who Were Those Four Men?
- Who Were They? They Were The Metal Kings!!!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Todays answer:

-Who Were They? I dont know,they AFKed out from  battleground and they bought better gear and  moved to winner server and changed their names and some of them were bots and and...

Originally posted by Adiaris

Am I the only one to remember how much fail WAR's rvr was? It's not the first time lately I see it mentioned as a positive example of it done right... But that's kind of not what I remember it being at all, nor what most people used to comment about it way back when. Maybe it changed? I admit I wouldn't know, I never went back for a second look.

Oh, and the article reads like a whiny rant. Pvp in a box is pvp in a box, and it isn't going anywhere but neither is it the cause of the world's problems. Trick is just to limit it's balance affecting pve and the game as a whole. If people want to massacre each other in a pvp box let them, as long as there's other options and other games I don't see the issue really.

No, I remember it as well. Yet many seem to look back with rose-tinted glasses at DAOC's setup and forget all the horror, pain, and suffering they encountered. It's human nature to block out bad memories. DAOC had to offer "free high level characters" and the like to try and get people to move servers to make it more competitive, as most servers were dominated by one realm, and contrary to many people's faulty memories here, the two lesser realms didn't "fight the good fight and beat up the big bad meanie". No, they got ganked. Repeatedly. Till they moved servers where their realm was top dog. Sure, once your realm is #1, PvP is more fun.... no one likes to lose.

And regarding others saying "Shadowbane". You mean the game where an entire server could be dominated by a single guild who managed to drive away the playerbase faster than any previous game ever had? Sure, great fun for that guild.... till they ran out of people to gank. Sucked for the developer. No players = no money.

I can't say I disagree with your point of view there. PvP would be more entertaining if it actually consisted of mature players who can do with a friendly match.. But that's the thing. I rarely ever see someone act mature and friendly in pvp matches. Some prime examples.. Ragnarok Online was my very first MMO, and of course I checked out the PvP Arenas there. It just consisted of people either going at it with eachother, or just sitting with a group in some spot to chat it up. Whenever someone would get killed, that person would start his/her personal vendetta against the one killing him/her.. Either just coming back over and over again, raging at the person, demanding their blood and whatnot.. And sometimes it even escalated where that person would just come back with their whole guild just to hunt down one person because he/she had the NERVE to attack that person in a PvP Arena, oh the horror of it all~

To put things simply, if I do PvP, I prefer simple one on one duels with friends, because I can have a fun and friendly match with them, without risking people waging war against me.