Originally posted by Foomerang

 

---

 

---

Not what I was talking about.

 

I know what you are talking about.

The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.

I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.

The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.

But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize.

Q: The biggest single group of MMO players?

A: Young (single) men.

Q: The best way to attract the attention of young (single) men?

A: ???

---

Originally posted by tom_gore
Q: The biggest single group of MMO players?

A: Young (single) men.

 

Q: The best way to attract the attention of young (single) men?

A: ???

 

---

The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

---

Originally posted by Nailzzz
     I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

 

     Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

 

---

 

seriously? lol

Nevermind women are portrayed as helpless in films and television more than men. Nevermind women are sexualized and objectified more than men in mass media.
Nevermind the majority of domestic violence victims are women.
Nevermind the majority of rape victims are women.

Keep telling yourself that women are in control here.

     Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.

     When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.

     As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.

     To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.

Only if by "new" you mean "predominant style for fantasy artwork since at least the mid-1950s".

Of course, square-enix took it all the way to porn, that was unusual ("new") at the time, I guess.

---

Originally posted by Icewhite

---

Originally posted by GeezerGamer The exact same method and demographic Paramount has used in every Star Trek series since the 60s. Yeah, this is new.

---

Only if by "new" you mean "predominant style for fantasy artwork since at least the mid-1950s".

Of course, square-enix took it all the way to porn, that was unusual ("new") at the time, I guess.

---

Yes, that kind of "new"

I'm a woman, and I don't care about any type of sexualization. I think there's two sides to every coin you can either look at it as negative, or positive. Is it a fictional character really a hinderance to female progress in the world? Or is it empowering that women are seen as beautiful, and displayed as such while being fully capable of doing what a man does...But in a chain bikini :) I choose the ladder, I don't know why anyone gets upset about this. Who cares?

If it was a half naked man in the picture it would be hilarious and made fun of, it's a half naked woman in the picture and people tend to take it seriously. It's really not hard.

---

Originally posted by Sovrath

---

Originally posted by Foomerang  

---

 

---

Not what I was talking about.  

---

I know what you are talking about.

The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.

I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.

The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.

But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize.

---

Of course people can feel good about being objectified for monetary gain. Our society encourages it. It is reinforced in our culture constantly. We live in a world where we reward people for dehumanizing themselves. We are born and raised into this way of thinking. It is so ingrained into our life that we actually feel fulfilled by doing it.

When slavery was abolished, there were tens of thousands of slaves that refused to strike out on their own and leave. They stayed with their masters because that was all they knew and they were convinced that it was ok to be owned. And they were genuinely content. Society had encouraged it to be that way.

Oh my God, it's an attractive woman! Run, lest our poor eyes be burned by the sight!

Seriously, really? I wouldn't care if it was a mascular man - the human body is beautiful. It also helps sell products, which is good for employment.

Originally posted by Valentina
I'm a woman, and I don't care about any type of sexualization. I think there's two sides to every coin you can either look at it as negative, or positive. Is it a fictional character really a hinderance to female progress in the world? Or is it empowering that women are seen as beautiful, and displayed as such while being fully capable of doing what a man does...But in a chain bikini :) I choose the ladder, I don't know why anyone gets upset about this. Who cares?

My thought is ALOT of people feel uncomfortable with their own sexuality and they now have to rant against oversexualisation... that being said and getting back to the quote, I totally agree that you choose what side you want to see. If people want to overthink and make their life even more painful and/or complicated so be it :D

All I see is a grow up woman wearing a sexy armor, they didn't even make the breast look beyond retardation when they could ... and yes life is sex driven and I don't think it is going to change anytime soon !

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
I am... so very suprised that this topic hasn't been shutdown as of yet considering the content of some posts.

And who hasn't been completely surprised with the direction this oft-repeated fossil of a thread always takes?

---

Originally posted by Nailzzz
Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.

---

Ok. I'll dispute your points.

---

At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents.

---

---

Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail.

---

---

Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?).

---

---

Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

---

Your last paragraph dismisses patriarchy because you claim women have the power to influence and control just as much as a man. They do. And they participate in patriarchy as well. This isn't about men vs women. Its about society as a whole and the roles of oppression that we play in them.     

---

When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.

---

---

As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.

---

---

To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.

---

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
I am... so very suprised that this topic hasn't been shutdown as of yet considering the content of some posts.

And who hasn't been completely surprised with the direction this oft-repeated fossil of a thread always takes?

Freedom and individual rights are important. Freedom of expression and artistic freedom are essential in a good and happy society. Really for every individual in the world. Being able to respect other peoples opinion and how they prefer to live is also important. That is tolerance. People that think a woman in a computer game wearing a bikini is the end of the world are strange, IMO.  And that they feel they need to attack developers and companies that are creating such games is odd. Clearly they dont have to play the games if they dont like them. There is no need to preach morals and ideology.  I certainly dont want such values, morals or ideology to be part of my life. At least not when I play games.

Originally posted by Astraeis

Originally posted by Drealgrin
women are sexy, deal with it. Cry about something else.

This is way too easy to parry. I prefer bigger challenges.

Touche!

Originally posted by tom_gore

Q: The biggest single group of MMO players?

A: Young (single) men.

 

Q: The best way to attract the attention of young (single) men?

A: ??? 

Free beer?

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

---

Originally posted by gaeanprayer
While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points. 

 

Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

---

 

What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system.

During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

 Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.

Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me.  I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking.  Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.

I'm confused where he told you what to think rather than telling you something you could think about.

EDIT: Also, did Hurvart just say he doesn't want respect to be a part of games?

---

Originally posted by Uhwop

---

Originally posted by Foomerang  

---

Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

---

  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

---

 Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.

Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me.  I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking.  Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.

---

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

---

Originally posted by Sovrath

---

Originally posted by Foomerang  

---

 

---

Not what I was talking about.  

---

I know what you are talking about.

The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.

I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.

The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.

But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize.

---

Of course people can feel good about being objectified for monetary gain. Our society encourages it. It is reinforced in our culture constantly. We live in a world where we reward people for dehumanizing themselves. We are born and raised into this way of thinking. It is so ingrained into our life that we actually feel fulfilled by doing it.

When slavery was abolished, there were tens of thousands of slaves that refused to strike out on their own and leave. They stayed with their masters because that was all they knew and they were convinced that it was ok to be owned. And they were genuinely content. Society had encouraged it to be that way.

 

I have to shiver a bit at your post because I always find it disquieting when someone has recognized the evils of the world and wants to point them out to people, possibly "clucking their tongue" along the way.

My first thought is that we are wired to be "us". And though we try to be better people, in the end we are going to be what we are going to be. Within humanity there is a nature vs nurture battle that is always going on. Still, I don't believe that setting some high bar, a bar that is sort of academic in its conception, is really going to change us from what we are.

In the end, we are animals. We eat and procreate. Our whole drive is about eating and procreating. And though we do incredible things such as land small cars on mars and take sounds or color or words and weave them into something that is greater than the sum of its parts, we are still programmed with "eating and procreating".

It's just that our intelligence also makes us aware of sexuality in a more profound and perhaps complicated way.

Are there people out there who are victims? Are there people out there who don't know better? sure! Are there people out there who need help because they have gotten into situations where they should never be?

of course!

Are there people out there who embrace their sexuality and try ti imbue their lives with as much of it as possible? Because they are wired this way? um, "yea you bet".

I'm for a live and let live enviroment. I'm not for groups of people looking at other groups of people and creating very strict defiitions on what they should be doing, how they should be acting and how they don't know better because they are misguided, they are led astray or they can't let themselves be better and rise above.

Becuase you know what that is?

That's Plato's Republic.

It's the whole idea that mankind will always be lost unless the small group of learned philosophers take over leadership and shows them "the way" despite themselves. That only the philosophers are capapble of leading the unruly masses who can't possibly make good decisions as a society. That only a few are wise enough to lead the many.

And that type of thing just won't do.

Sex sells because it's who we are. We want to be sexual, we want to have it in our lives as much as we can stand. if people want to temper it that's great. More power to them. If people want to indulge and maximize it then that should be ok as well. If that is not to your liking and you want to say that it's because of the chains of society then that's your prerogative. You can hate and avoid the use of sexual images on games, in movies, on TV as much as you like. I'll fully support you in that. But that's where that ends.