Originally posted by nolic1

Originally posted by yaoming36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU

 

The first part of this quite easy and can be done with a pick-up-group... once you get underwater, all hell breaks loose. I spent about 2 hours in the underwater room with the 8 dragon heads trying to turn off the fire and then made it all the way to the end to realize no-one had the damn sword.

Yeah that ones a real group effort to get through and you have to work really well together to finish.

Exactly... so if this is the kind of thing that we see at a level 15-25 zone, just imagine what we can expect at level 80. Not to mention that you can go back and do this again and everything in between once you're maxed level and this will still be difficult/fun because of level scaling... 

Truly when people say things like Guild Wars 2 has no endgame or no raids I really don't understand it at all. What do you call those things? Is that not what a raid is all about? Just my 2-cents

Originally posted by yaoming36

Originally posted by nolic1

Originally posted by yaoming36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU

 

The first part of this quite easy and can be done with a pick-up-group... once you get underwater, all hell breaks loose. I spent about 2 hours in the underwater room with the 8 dragon heads trying to turn off the fire and then made it all the way to the end to realize no-one had the damn sword.

Yeah that ones a real group effort to get through and you have to work really well together to finish.

Exactly... so if this is the kind of thing that we see at a level 15-25 zone, just imagine what we can expect at level 80. Not to mention that you can go back and do this again and everything in between once you're maxed level and this will still be difficult/fun because of level scaling... 

Truly when people say things like Guild Wars 2 has no endgame or no raids I really don't understand it at all. What do you call those things? Is that not what a raid is all about? Just my 2-cents

And I agree with you they are just like raids almost just not instanced.

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Thats a good example.  can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.

 

For me, and I led a lot of raids in WotLK, it wouldn't be much fun.  Half the challenge is choreography and memorization...and honestly that's not very fun or challenging in a way that interests me.  Even so, the boss fights generally fell into one of two categories.

1.  The ones where a certain fraction of my guild had trouble with the footwork, so they were annoying even the 10th time.  Not challenging for me, mind you, but repetitive and annoying.

2.  The ones where the above didn't happen.  Those were just repetitive and boring.

The gear in some ways doesn't help.  But in some ways it did help, since the boring stuff got done quicker.

But I'd rather have a game that was challenging because it required that you REACT with good decision-making skills.  Raiding (as it is traditionally meant) does not have that, because everything is timed and follows a schedule.  Fundamentally, that's why it is fun the first 2-3 times you fight a boss.  After that, I've certainly mastered the routine required and it is boring for me.  Slightly more interesting if I am leading a raid, but still a lot of the allure is gone.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Thats a good example.  can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.

 

For me, and I led a lot of raids in WotLK, it wouldn't be much fun.  Half the challenge is choreography and memorization...and honestly that's not very fun or challenging in a way that interests me.  Even so, the boss fights generally fell into one of two categories.

1.  The ones where a certain fraction of my guild had trouble with the footwork, so they were annoying even the 10th time.  Not challenging for me, mind you, but repetitive and annoying.

2.  The ones where the above didn't happen.  Those were just repetitive and boring.

The gear in some ways doesn't help.  But in some ways it did help, since the boring stuff got done quicker.

But I'd rather have a game that was challenging because it required that you REACT with good decision-making skills.  Raiding (as it is traditionally meant) does not have that, because everything is timed and follows a schedule.  Fundamentally, that's why it is fun the first 2-3 times you fight a boss.  After that, I've certainly mastered the routine required and it is boring for me.  Slightly more interesting if I am leading a raid, but still a lot of the allure is gone.

Ye I know mate I spent a long time in that world.  My example was based on the assertion that this raiding is fun  (by posters here)

Originally posted by Krimzin

This is exactly what raiding im talking about. Im not talking about the douche bag elitist. I enjoy raiding with a guild of people I enjoy running with. We have set stop times and extra players to fill in when RL shit comes up, which is does often.

But Krimzin man...Based on your wording in your OP ...you are representing yourself as a "douche bag elitist" when you say people don't want raiding in GW2 or don't like raiding due to their personal charcacter flaws.

It helps that your guild has a good suuply of replacements.  Sounds like the replacements gets to see some action. I never was a filler myself because my raid toons always went healer or tank for that very reason.  But man...to be locked out of content because your guild does not need you. Harsh.  And ........ pass.

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

i prefer organized raids at enemies Forts/teritorry than a repititive  raid against NPCs, you said you are ex-military guy, then you would love the unpredictable enemy (aka Human) than a predictable NPC ... thats the reassons i never played EQ or WoW, cause of the lack of organised PvP and cause of all this "militarism" in the organise of the raid focused guilds, when you encounter human enemies and not predictable programs this militarism fails ...

I dislike Raiding (anything over 10 people) because I don't enjoy seeing hundreds of avatars on my screen whether they're perfectly working together (this isn't synchronized swimming after all) or not. I even dislike this activity in books and movies, having two clashing armies for example.

Give me instead content that's based on a Hero (or group of Heroes, up to 8 even) fighting against an army and the Villain(s) that control it and that's another story, especially if it's a good story!

The problem with typical raiders is that they want the best gear in the game reserved for raid drops.  No crafting it, no getting it from regular dungeons or open world play.

Which means if I don't want to be at a disadvantage, I have to raid.  And I think raiding is incredibly boring.  Other than that, I have no problem with raiders or raids.  If they're willing to raid for the same items I can get in other ways, more power to em.

I've always thought with raids that a "if you build it they will come" approach would work - no better gear, no carrot, just large group instanced encounters demanding skill and coordination - and people would still spend time to complete them just for the sake of completing them.

Originally posted by Madimorga

The problem with typical raiders is that they want the best gear in the game reserved for raid drops.  No crafting it, no getting it from regular dungeons or open world play.

 

Which means if I don't want to be at a disadvantage, I have to raid.  And I think raiding is incredibly boring.  Other than that, I have no problem with raiders or raids.  If they're willing to raid for the same items I can get in other ways, more power to em.

Yes and the fact that raiders are becoming more and more the minority, companies are slowly starting to realize, why are we catering to this minortiy. Why should someone who "RAIDS" get the best a game can offer. Is it because they re better, no, is it because they pay more for a sub, nope, it s only because they can dedicate more time to a game, then most average person.

I personally like to see games are going the way of the "normal working persons" game. I used to think, oh well they raided for it, and I hate raiding, and, well, don t have time to do it anyways. let them have the best gear. Screw that.

I ve always said, let there be raids, in the form of GW2 type. Anyone can join, everyone gets a drop, everyone has fun.

One suggestion, I always had for DAOC, and this is off topic a bit but on topic as well. Make crafted gear the best stuff you can get period. Why it makes the economy boom and for a RvR centric game, which GW2 will somewhat have. Let me explain outside the economy.

In DAOC, crafters would flock to DF, when seals we re the main thing to get. Well they always made good money, but it became a secondary thing. What I was thinking is, make an area, where the 3 realms fought over, however had control of the 1 keep, had access to a resource area behind the keep. Now the keep was always up for the taking/defending, but the area behind with the resources, could not be entered, from outside the keep.

In this area, crafters need to be a certain crafting level to get these resources, and this made the best gear in the game. Of course as everyone got this gear eventually, they upgrade the resources for new gear to make.

I ve always thought, in alot of games, crafters deserve more credit then raiders, etc. but seemed to always get the shaft, because for some odd reason, companies thought raiders were the norm. Well we all know they re the huge minrity.

Of course have some raids, but in an RvR centric game, I think this little meta game, for crafters, and well anyone else wanting the best gear, this would be fun.

Maybe this will be implemented in GW2 somehow, think of it almost like Wintergrasp, but for the victors , crafters got the benefit, and all wanting that gear.

Even if an enemy takes the keep to access the area, and you re like me , a non crafter,  can enter the resource area, with my crafter buddy, and protect him/her, for maybe payment to make me some gear. Work out some deals, as an enemy takes the keep, and gets access, you can still stay ala DF, but once you die you re out.

Anyways, a big rant, but an idea I ve had forever.

Originally posted by BadSpock

I've always thought with raids that a "if you build it they will come" approach would work - no better gear, no carrot, just large group instanced encounters demanding skill and coordination - and people would still spend time to complete them just for the sake of completing them.

 

I absolutely agree with you.

I have more than thought it, I have said as much when talking about it with guildmate in my raiding guild in previous games.   Usually it sparked a pretty big debate with some people agreeing, and others disagreeing fiercely.   So people would indeed come, but evidently not everyone would.   (Though, personally, I chalk up some of the disagreement as resistance to something being "different" so some of the naysayers probably would still come).

Originally posted by Jagarid

Originally posted by BadSpock

I've always thought with raids that a "if you build it they will come" approach would work - no better gear, no carrot, just large group instanced encounters demanding skill and coordination - and people would still spend time to complete them just for the sake of completing them.

I absolutely agree with you.

I have more than thought it, I have said as much when talking about it with guildmate in my raiding guild in previous games.   Usually it sparked a pretty big debate with some people agreeing, and others disagreeing fiercely.   So people would indeed come, but evidently not everyone would.   (Though, personally, I chalk up some of the disagreement as resistance to something being "different" so some of the naysayers probably would still come).

People would and will do a lot for a special title or cosmetic look that is rare and hard to get.

Guild Wars 1 and even WoW are proof of that - and GW2 is banking on it for retention as well.

Originally posted by Madimorga
As a crafter, I'm all for crafted gear being the best.  But I'm against locking recipes and mats up in raids, dungeons, or pvp areas where a solo crafter or a crafter in a small guild can never get them.

If you re commenting on what I said, you don t have to pvp at all, except die eventually when the keep is taken. Gather what you can.

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Madimorga
As a crafter, I'm all for crafted gear being the best.  But I'm against locking recipes and mats up in raids, dungeons, or pvp areas where a solo crafter or a crafter in a small guild can never get them.

If you re commenting on what I said, you don t have to pvp at all, except die eventually when the keep is taken. Gather what you can.

Ah well, that's okay then, kamikaze crafting squad, form up!

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Madimorga
As a crafter, I'm all for crafted gear being the best.  But I'm against locking recipes and mats up in raids, dungeons, or pvp areas where a solo crafter or a crafter in a small guild can never get them.

If you re commenting on what I said, you don t have to pvp at all, except die eventually when the keep is taken. Gather what you can.

Ah well, that's okay then, kamikaze crafting squad, form up!

Bingo :)

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

I have raided in most MMOs out there to date, but here is my impression of your 4 points:

1) Not everyone wants to invest the 9-15 hours a week to raid progression, even if they have the time to do so. Some people just dont find it fun.

2) Are you insinuating that non-raiders have less skill? In most games I have found the non-raiders to be better players, as they have to accomodate for the gear disadvantage. Raiders are typically worse players who rely on the raid time investment and the gear advantage as a crutch. Only the top 5% of raiders are actually good players. Most guilds are just being carried by a few good players and the rest are just mindless lemmings who can follow some simple instructions to get good gear which makes them look good in group dungeons.

3) As I said above, the vast majority of raid guildies I have had were mindless lemmings. There were only a handful with a personality to speak of and those tended to be the officers or raid leaders. The rest just show up and silently get loot by following simple instructions.

4) Back to point 1, some people would rather be socialising with a smaller group than listening to instructions for 3 hours a night.

Yes raid progression can be fun in the right situation, but it has gotten to the point where anyone who shows up with 9-23 other people just gets charity loot that is better than anything obtainable with a single group, often with less challenge.

I have no qualms with GW2 adding dungeons with larger group capacity, like the elite dungeons in GW1 (where there were 12 players allowed instead of the normal 8), but I am glad to see the back of gear inequality based on party size.

Every time I see this Thread Necro'ed I think it says/means "Raiders (Hating GW2) coming out of the woodwork"

(which come to think of it is what it kinda is >.>)

Originally posted by Madimorga

The problem with typical raiders is that they want the best gear in the game reserved for raid drops.  No crafting it, no getting it from regular dungeons or open world play.

 

Which means if I don't want to be at a disadvantage, I have to raid.  And I think raiding is incredibly boring.  Other than that, I have no problem with raiders or raids.  If they're willing to raid for the same items I can get in other ways, more power to em.

 This is my problem with them as well. They think that the rest of the game has to be geared towards their playstyle and devs have catered to this mindset for far to long.

Originally posted by Jagarid

Originally posted by BadSpock

I've always thought with raids that a "if you build it they will come" approach would work - no better gear, no carrot, just large group instanced encounters demanding skill and coordination - and people would still spend time to complete them just for the sake of completing them.

I absolutely agree with you.

I have more than thought it, I have said as much when talking about it with guildmate in my raiding guild in previous games.   Usually it sparked a pretty big debate with some people agreeing, and others disagreeing fiercely.   So people would indeed come, but evidently not everyone would.   (Though, personally, I chalk up some of the disagreement as resistance to something being "different" so some of the naysayers probably would still come).

A lot of people wouldn't raid if they didn't get the über gear. Some might raid for cosmetic gear or a fancy title. Few will do it purely for fun, becase to most it's more like a job than real fun.