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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

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  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

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Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.

Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.

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What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

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  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

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Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.

 

Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.

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What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.

The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.

It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

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  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

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Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.   Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.

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  What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.

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The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.

It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.

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I never said I have the right to speak for anyone but myself. But it is a fact that we live in a male dominated patriarchy (America) and as a result, these types of objectifications and power hierarchies exist within it. They are oppressive. Not much else I can say about that. Sorry you are taking offense. I'm just discussing the reality of my surroundings.

Originally posted by rojo6934

im not subbed to Rift but she has been on my desktop backbround since she showed up the first time...

nom nom nom

Ditto.

I'd like a HR version of it, or anything in Rift remotely look that good.

I was having this discussion with my husband about science fiction books like for instance Peter Hamilton's Pandora's Star  and Judas Unchained and I asked him about the secret fascination of men and young nubile females. In his books the men  after rejuvenation (where your body is young again and your mind is kept intact so your memories are old) and can be like 300 or 400 hundred years old go after first lifers who have not been rejuvenated ever and are like 16-19 year olds. His books are full of these men who go after young women or have harems where young women apply to be a part of. 

One of the characters romps with 2 young wives for like two hours then he goes to his older wives who are also rejuvenated and have young bodies but he finds comfort just sleeping with them. So he has sex with the young things who are easily 300 over years younger but just sleeps with his older wives. The word older only means in real years as their bodies are young. The women in his books seem to go more for companionship and have real relationships. I find it so odd that men who write in a medium that enables you to fantasize about the future think of populating it with these values. His science is good but in making these characters the men I mean so (I have no idea what adjective to use here) puerile perhaps he makes them very unlikable. Even characters I respect I lose some of it when they constantly go after young things. I guess you think this is because I am a 50 + year old women and I am feeling old and unattractive but that is not it I just wish people wrote with more respect for women.

I enjoy his books but I swear I cannot fathom what type of message he is sending out. I guess it does not matter as I believe Peter Hamilton may indeed be very happy with young women and probably like most men dream about having sexual encounters with young women as they grow older. I am also not saying women do not have similar fantasies but I have read some sci fi and fantasy written by women with the exception of vampire books where the men are centuries old and the women young by virtue of the whole vampires living a long life most female writers do not do this young young man with old old women. They write books where there is more parity between the sexes even same sex relationships.

I guess what I am getting at here about this topic is that older men go for young bodies and that is reflected in every medium.

I hate to admit it but by and large computer games are trashy entertainment with more in common with porn, pro-wrestling, and those evil B movies that are so bad they are good, than any form of artistic expression or work of merit. There is inherently nothing wrong with this as we all need an outlet to let of steam once in a while and I consider them a better outlet than one too many beers. But we shouldn’t lie to ourselves about what they are and then expect them to keep to some higher standard of expression. They appeal to our baser instincts to market themselves as a fun activity by letting us kill things, take their stuff, pwn other players, and pretend to be a hero for it that walks away with the babe (or hunk) for a change all without any real feelings of remorse. They are what they are and should by no means be used as a platform for serious discussion of social issues any more than a crazy frat party that gets a little out of hand without going criminal should be.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

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  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

---

Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.   Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.

---

  What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.

---

The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.

 

It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.

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I never said I have the right to speak for anyone but myself. But it is a fact that we live in a male dominated patriarchy (America) and as a result, these types of objectifications and power hierarchies exist within it. They are oppressive. Not much else I can say about that. Sorry you are taking offense. I'm just discussing the reality of my surroundings.

Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like they had the right to speak for all women. It is certainly true that women often gets payed less than men for the same job. And that there are are less female executives and leaders. I can recognize that and agree its unfair. The situation is probably almost the same in both the US and in the EU...

But I dont think those problems are related to "objectification" or sex. And I dont think women that use sexy revealing clothes or wants men to turn around and look at them are victims or exploited by the male dominated society. I think those ideas are flawed...

There are other feminists that would agree with me. In the late 60:es and in the 70:es feminists in general believed the main problem was the conservative and moralistic society. That women was not allowed to be sexy or enjoy sex. And it was related to flowerpower and hippie ideology.... It was about freedom. The ideal was to live in some collective and be naked or half naked most of the time and not believe in or recognize any morals related to sex at all. Everyone could more or less have sex with everyone. A women living like that was liberated and enjoyed sexual freedom. That was very different ideas and some still prefer to think like that today.

double post

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Hurvart

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

---

  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

---

Its all political ideology. And very subjective... People that think like that are fanatics. A naked human body is a normal and nutural thing.   Those books are not based on truths or facts or science. Its like reading "Das Kapital"... Some think its true. But others recognize its subjective and some think its propaganda.

---

  What I was talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the naked human body.

---

The "economic whoredom" explanation is extreme and women that dont agree with it will find it very insulting. Like my wife and all my female relatives... People can have whatever opinions and political ideas they want. But I think it is a bit disturbing when some feminists think they have the right to speak for all women. Because they think they recognize the truth and understands the real problems or whatever.   It is subjective ideology. And only a small minority believe in it.

---

  I never said I have the right to speak for anyone but myself. But it is a fact that we live in a male dominated patriarchy (America) and as a result, these types of objectifications and power hierarchies exist within it. They are oppressive. Not much else I can say about that. Sorry you are taking offense. I'm just discussing the reality of my surroundings.

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Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like they had the right to speak for all women. It is certainly true that women often gets payed less than men for the same job. And that there are are less female executives and leaders. I can recognize that and agree its unfair. The situation is probably almost the same in both the US and in the EU...

But I dont think those problems are related to "objectification" or sex. And I dont think women that use sexy revealing clothes or wants men to turn around and look at them are victims or exploited by the male dominated society. I think those ideas are flawed...

There are other feminists that would agree with me. In the late 60:es and in the 70:es feminists in general believed the main problem was the conservative and moralistic society. That women was not allowed to be sexy or enjoy sex. And it was related to flowerpower and hippie ideology.... It was about freedom. The ideal was to live in some collective and be naked or half naked most of the time and not believe in or recognize any morals related to sex at all. Everyone could more or less have sex with everyone. A women living like that was liberated and enjoyed sexual freedom. That was very different ideas and some still prefer to think like that today.

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I just said a few posts earlier that I am not talking about the acceptance of sex or nudity. I also never said that I was referring to women as victims in any of my posts. I'm not talking about you or your wife or her friends. I'm talking about our patriarchy. Objectification, whether voluntary or involuntary still produces the same result. A society where oppression and power through hierarchy stem from objectification and biased gender roles.

This goes way way beyond just women, it also includes a lot of men, all races, various ages and weights, everything that is not in line with the a white male dominated patriarchy.

I can see this is not getting through to you correctly. There is a breakdown in communication here and I cannot think of any more ways to put this. SO I'm going to leave it at that.

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Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer
While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points. 

 

Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

---

 

What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system.

During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

oh please.

Isn't it just rich that someone says "you 'think' you are empowered but we know better".

I know a lot of men and women who both embrace their sexuality and love it. They dress how they want, act how they want and more power to them.

god when did these forums become so bloody prude, oh noes rift is using something they been using since before launch.

Oh noes, the rest of the industry (both whitin the mmo sphere and outside it in other industries) is using something that is obviously working, the bloody terror. Some people direly need to grow up and pull their head out of their arse as this is just plain pathetic.

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Originally posted by Toxia

Trion has finally figured out how to please both sides of the arguement!

How to give men the eye candy and yet stop the women from feeling sexualized...

SLAP SOME BLINDERS ON THE SCANTY ARMOR! Men can look, women can't see them looking! Done!

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Yes, yes, and women's fiction is no better when it comes to depicting men. Also, try watching daytime TV commercials. Men are depicted as stupid, incompetent and can't do anything without women.

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Originally posted by Sovrath

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.    Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!

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  What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system. During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.

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oh please.

Isn't it just rich that someone says "you 'think' you are empowered but we know better".

I know a lot of men and women who both embrace their sexuality and love it. They dress how they want, act how they want and more power to them.

 

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     I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

     Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

Originally posted by Hurvart

Some "noted feminists" behave and talk like

And lots and lots of white knights believe ....

C'mon guys, it's never a good time for straw man practice.  Yes, both of you.

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Originally posted by Nailzzz
     I'm always amused whenever people start discussing "patriarchy" in a modern day context. At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents. Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail. Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?). Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.

     Women as a group are a mass of contradictions. The whole idea of "patriarchy" is laughable in a modern day context given all of these examples of female decision making. If there is a "patriarchy" it is only because women prefer it over any alternatives. When it comes to women, men are reactive. Most things a man does throughout his life is on some level due to wanting to have women think positively about him. If women wanted to change the way society runs, it would simply happen.

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seriously? lol

Nevermind women are portrayed as helpless in films and television more than men. Nevermind women are sexualized and objectified more than men in mass media.
Nevermind the majority of domestic violence victims are women.
Nevermind the majority of rape victims are women.

Keep telling yourself that women are in control here.

Originally posted by Dragonantis
Picture her running through a forest XD

... in slowmotion.

And I don't know what all you people are complaining about. This kind of advertisement has been around since Lineage (or even earlier) and considering the low low depths it CAN sometimes sink to ... this is just cute.

Really, I think she's cute and I'm still not gonna play Rift again. °O

Considering feminists:

You want all the rights that men have? Sure, be my guest. But you gotta take the responsibilities that come with them as well... and thats where its lacking sometimes.