Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by GrumpyCharr
I'm convinced that there is no 'acceptable way' to monetize any game.  I seriously thing some players think ANY form of payment is because of a greedy developer.  

What would be acceptable for you, then? Cosmetic stuff? Character slots? Anything?

Character slots and strictly content (access to new zones & dungeons). 

That's it. Nothing else.

Cosmetic stuff might be more important than stats for roleplayers or people that play games mostly for aescethics reasons.

"Convenience" stuff get so stretched nowadays that it often include p2w and even if not - it greatly affects gameplay sooner or later anyway.

Advantage stuff - don't have to explain why it is not acceptable right?

Anyway - you won't find "universal" set up that will be ok with majority of players, unless you do truly very SMALL monetarization, but that might be very uneffective from business point of view.

Besides I accept very diffrent things in diffrent type of games.

In example - there are certain ways of monetarization that I would accept in example in MOBA's, but I would NOT accept that kind of monetarization in mmorpg.

In other genres / types of games that might be even diffrent.

Anyway one thing is certain : for mmorpg's I have STRICTEST rule about monetarization and I accept smallest amount of it, - actually I find it hard to accept anything for mmorpg apart of sub without any cash shop / rmt/ rmah.  I could also accept B2P BUT without selling anything aside of new content.  Since that propably would not be enough for business, then well...

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by Robokapp

*snip*

Free to play games should be free to play. That's as far as it goes. anything beyond appearance, anything of any utility what-so-ever is unnacceptable. xp pots? no. dies? yes. boosts? no. clothes with no stats? yes. clothes with some stats? no.

basically if it has stats or boosts any form of attribute, power or time pace it's not ok. if it does nothing at all but looks amazing...okay.

 it's called 'free to play'. so i it's a part of the gameplay it must be free. if it's not afecting gameplay at all, it can cost any ammount of money.

Do you know any good F2P MMO's that have a cash shop where nothing affects gameplay in any way? I'd be interested in seeing how they pull off making a game, and getting by on the goodwill of players buying stuff that doesn't help them in any way when playing.

not MMO despite being advertised as one but...Urban Rivals. it's a card game and as you can imagine, there are some OP cards that cost millions of in-game currency.

the twist is...those cards aren't allowed in tournaments. They serve purely a collection purpose. Not a gameplay purpose.

yes you can buy stuff with real money but stuff that's easily affordable in-game as well. EASILY being the keyword here.

it's as close as it gets. for me, the cash shop in the game simply did not bother. I could ignore it entirely and still have the optimal game experience.

and what i just said is horrible. But that's my view on it. I want a cosh shop where I won't spend a dime, someone else can spend as much as he wants, and my gameplay will remain optimal despite him spending and me not spending. so the question becomes...why would he spend? I don't know...that's why this business model is volatile and i have no faith in its success. But yeah, that's about it.

p.s. very cute little browser game. took a break for abou a year, logged one day and...no new overpowered cards, my deck as i left it was still competitive. that was a surprise. I would've expected it to be unrecognisable but it was the same fun game I had forgotten about somewhere in my favorites bar. a few new mods were introduced but at its core it wasnt ruined by greed.

Originally posted by blognorg

Are you implying that F2P only exists in the heads of marketing executives, and that all F2P games are actually P2W? If so, that kind of seems like a streatch. Eleborate more on what you consider P2W and what is tolerable in your mind.

P2W accurately describes players purchasing in-game advantages (microtransactions).   It doesn't have anything to do with " how much " of an advantage. 

What I find tolerable may not be the same as other people, but normally I quit or won't start a P2W game that gives players too much advantage through the cash shop.   When the cash shop becomes a requirement to participate in some aspect, then that is too much for me.

Originally posted by blognorg
There's still a lot of hate for the F2P model. The most dire of it stems from P2W. However, it's been shown that F2P games can be fun and fair. Most people seem to be okay with cosmetic stuff, but game like GW2 have convenience items, as well, and I don't hear mass cries of P2W. So, where is that line drawn (if there is a line)? What kinds of stuff is accaptable for F2P, and what isn't? Also, some new ideas to throw around would be coool. What would you do?

I don't draw a line.

I have no objection to playing pay-to-win games to begin with.  I pay the amount I'm comfortable paying, as determined by how much I'm enjoying the game I'm playing and my current gaming budget.

If that amounts to $50 for the box, $30 for two additional months and $0 in the (non-existant) cash shop, then corporation gets $80 out of me.  If that amounts to $300 for the lifetime box, $0 for two additional months and $200 in the cosmetic-only cash shop, then the corporation gets $500 out of me.  If that amounts to $0 for the box, $0 for two additional months and $2000 in the cash shop, then the corporation gets $2000 out of me.  You can guess which one the corporation would prefer ...

In any case?  I consider the money well-spent so long as I enjoyed the process.

That is why we play these games, isn't it?  To enjoy and entertain ourselves?

There is a whole sliding scale to the Free 2 Play acceptable monetization scheme. Add to many fo these things and the game becomes just simply becomes bad to play.

Apearance Items

Extra Bag space

Minor XP potions

Mounts and run speed or flying

Locked Races and Classes

Major XP potions

Temorary Power Ups

Character revival potion

Reduced coin carrying

Permenent Gear enhancers

Gambling with gear breakage

Disabled market place

Freemium (Subscription game with a cash shop)

Originally posted by Robokapp

the reason I rejected them is that they alter the leveling experience. they...do affect gameplay. That's where my line is. These, while relatively harmless happen to land across the line.

 

they change the number of quests/kills per level...giving player A a leveling path unachievable by player B. equality becomes broken.

 

in my opinion at least.

So that's where you went.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by Robokapp

*snip*

Free to play games should be free to play. That's as far as it goes. anything beyond appearance, anything of any utility what-so-ever is unnacceptable. xp pots? no. dies? yes. boosts? no. clothes with no stats? yes. clothes with some stats? no.

basically if it has stats or boosts any form of attribute, power or time pace it's not ok. if it does nothing at all but looks amazing...okay.

 it's called 'free to play'. so i it's a part of the gameplay it must be free. if it's not afecting gameplay at all, it can cost any ammount of money.

Do you know any good F2P MMO's that have a cash shop where nothing affects gameplay in any way? I'd be interested in seeing how they pull off making a game, and getting by on the goodwill of players buying stuff that doesn't help them in any way when playing.

not MMO despite being advertised as one but...Urban Rivals. it's a card game and as you can imagine, there are some OP cards that cost millions of in-game currency.

 

the twist is...those cards aren't allowed in tournaments. They serve purely a collection purpose. Not a gameplay purpose.

That is incorrect, no? Those cards are allowed in regular gameplay jut not in ELO ranked matches... just like the stuff in GW2.

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Originally posted by nariusseldon
"Acceptable"? That varies with people.

It is a free world. Any method is "acceptable" legally, and business-wise. A business can charge any way they like. You, of course, have the freedom of NOT to buy.

 

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People lump all P2W together, but there's two different kinds, and it's a huge difference.  There's the kind where you can pay to be on the same level as people who have achieved things by playing (or to help get there faster)  - and then there's the kind where you pay to get ahead of anything people can achieve just by playing.

I'm fine with the former, but the latter is when it becomes unacceptable, IMHO.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon
"Acceptable"? That varies with people.

 

It is a free world. Any method is "acceptable" legally, and business-wise. A business can charge any way they like. You, of course, have the freedom of NOT to buy.

 

---

Well, yeah. This is the right answer for "everyone", but I think the idea is to find out what different people find acceptable. It could be enlightening to see what different people think on the same subject. I don't think the idea is to reach a consensus, that would be silly.

 

If you spend any time on this forum, you will know that consensus is a pipe dream.

In fact, you can see some here touting ANY cash shop beyond fluff items are not acceptable, and there are plenty of players buying those (hence acceptable) in the market place.

There is no consensus, only opinions.

Vanguard SoH is a great example of that!

Oh, wait you did say acceptable! .....

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by GrumpyCharr
I'm convinced that there is no 'acceptable way' to monetize any game.  I seriously thing some players think ANY form of payment is because of a greedy developer.  

What would be acceptable for you, then? Cosmetic stuff? Character slots? Anything?

For me? I don't really care as long as it's fair.  I was speaking for the popular idea that gaming companies are for profit companies instead of charities that offer free games to the masses.  

Originally posted by GrumpyCharr

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by GrumpyCharr
I'm convinced that there is no 'acceptable way' to monetize any game.  I seriously thing some players think ANY form of payment is because of a greedy developer.  

What would be acceptable for you, then? Cosmetic stuff? Character slots? Anything?

For me? I don't really care as long as it's fair.  I was speaking for the popular idea that gaming companies are for profit companies instead of charities that offer free games to the masses.  

Well, of course a company wants to make money... rather, has to make money. People tend to throw the "greedy" label around too freely in my opinion. Regardless, what is your opinion of fair?

Originally posted by Vhaln

People lump all P2W together, but there's two different kinds, and it's a huge difference.  There's the kind where you can pay to be on the same level as people who have achieved things by playing (or to help get there faster)  - and then there's the kind where you pay to get ahead of anything people can achieve just by playing.

 

I'm fine with the former, but the latter is when it becomes unacceptable, IMHO.

 

I agree with this, nothing in the shop should give you an advantage over a free player, but it should allow you to save a little time.

Meh. I dont mind them selling nerly whatever in a cash shop, as long the the pay currency can be earned in game at a sufficient rate with enough play time spendt.

Then it just works as an equalizer really. People with lots of time and no money will be equal with people with little time and lots of money.

Now someone will argue that the company will end up catering only for the paying customers. They might, but it will kill them in the end. In most games the main population will be made up of the non paying players, and the game needs those players as they are going to be what makes the game feel alive.

But Extra Credits explained all this much better than I can.

Originally posted by Robokapp

not a fan, not a hater. uninterested. haven't been following it. haven't played the first, and i never play a new mmo at launch. Soooo I'd prefer not to be ragged into a GW2 war :)

 

why, what did I say?

Your summary essentially encapsulates the whole debate about the cash shop of GW2. They sell cosmetic items, they don't sell power items, they do however sell boosts, and some people are ok with that, others are not.

Not letting yourself get dragged into a GW2 war is a good idea, by all means :)

Originally posted by Robokapp

OP, monetraizing F2P is like fixing global overpopulation.

 any effective solution is unethical, any ethical solution is ineffective.

If you came up with this analogy yourself, kudos. Best one I've seen in a while.