Originally posted by yaoming36

I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.

 

Are you talking about the fire shaman by the way?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btldoS1jFbo

 

This guy

That giant is a pain in the arss that makes most raid bosses look like hello kitty he has an AOE of DOOM so its beeter to say back and range him down.

The char fire shaman in the starter area is a complete pain or was during BWE1 he would one shot a group of 50 in easy then continue to whip anyone else that tried.

Originally posted by Asuran24
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).

And thus, if ArenaNet ever considers putting in raiding, they need to realize that it's only one part of the content, not the only part that matters like so many developers before them think.

If they can do that, and do it without causing everything else to become obsolete, then I have no problems with raiding.

Of course, they should frankly first get everything else sorted before they attempt something like this.

Originally posted by Asuran24
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).

What you ignore is that raiding becomes a huge focus because making raids is a massive amount of effort.

Now, WoW theoretically could have done raids and a lot of other content too.  Heck, WoW is probably the only game that's ever been on the market that made enough money to potentially have been able to make content faster than players could get through it.  But they'd have to have hired on more people and that would have eaten into their massive profit margin.

Point is, one raid is the equivalent of a massive amount of other sorts of content.  Given the fact companies have limited resources, going with raiding does mean massive sacrifices in other areas.  That's why such games are designed around raiding, since they are pouring so many resources into it, they want to make sure people play it since they can't do a lot of other content.

I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well. 

Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.

Originally posted by Asuran24
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).

Nothing against what you said but you replying from a cell or iPad its hard to read a block of words.

As for your post I can see what you mean but DEV's need to step back and say him we only have these in the game for a very small player base what do we do for the others that dont raid. Those players that dont raid get stuck with most of the time one zone to mess around in for 6 months to a several yrs and thats not fun. Even EQ2's new expansion is like I said above but they have this huge world thats being left out which if they added the down lvling to and gear rewards like GW2 would be awsome make it so much better for none raiders.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by colddog04

I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.

Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.

The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players.  Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult.  Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them.  Ugh.  I'd rather get other content instead.

I agree in the long run i would rather have mre small scale content added to a game then larger scale content, but not to the point of fully omitting any large scale from the game (For me DE content is kinda a mix of both as it is build to be used by all sizes of groups largely as such i would say it is more of variable content then small or large scale.). Yet here is the issue in many games even when they add a raid to the game's content line-up it is never just the raid normally, as it normally has several smaller scale content instances packaged in with it or quite close by, but the other issue is gw2 being b2p might change their ability to keep up such a content upkeep. Even using wow as an example they got many of their raids either came with an adition instance/s or the playerbase was not even yet to where they needed more content to pay thru (such as when many of the bc raids hit in wow the playerbase was still largely trying to clear many fo the herocs and first few raids.).

Originally posted by Sojhin

I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well. 

Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.

Yeah, I get that. Difficulty isn't hard enough to keep you interested in PvE.

What I want them to do is, once they spread out and make a lot more zones and content, I want them to occasionally make entire zones filled with DEs and enemies that require 10+ people to even attempt. There is a lot of potential for a huge variety of activies to be developed and stay valid for the life of the game through the removal of the gear treadmill. We'll see what they actually do though.

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

You missed a reason.

Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

Exactly.  And there's no gear progression in GW2.

So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever. 

People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss.  But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.

Raids is good in some games for sure But in GW2 with such mechanics   Raids wil be huge mess.   With out healers and tanks  it will be just 30 ppl rolling around trying to hit boss and half of them will be dead every 10 seconds while other half will be running in circles trying to revive ppl.  :)

Also yes Raids in game showing gamers age    GW2 made for fun so ppl with work and lifes can enjoy it fully. Any heavy Raiding gear farming game focuses on School age teenagers so they can stay in game for  more than 4 hours.

It is fun to coordinate with team yes but after long day  i dont want to sit  near entrance waiting for other ppl to come so we can farm  same old boss for some useless piece of gear.  Also  its always Must come to raid   and i personally dont want to raid every day, once a week  yeah sure why not. But raiding is nothg but farming for gear  and fun only for first 2 kills. Subscription based games like WoW  MUST have raids so ppl will waste lots of time in it with a feeling like they are doing somethg. in Normall game we dont need to farm pixels to be able to enjoy content.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Sojhin

I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well. 

Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.

Yeah, I get that. Difficulty isn't hard enough to keep you interested in PvE.

 

What I want them to do is, once they spread out and make a lot more zones and content, I want them to occasionally make entire zones filled with DEs and enemies that require 10+ people to even attempt. There is a lot of potential for a huge variety of activies to be developed and stay valid for the life of the game through the removal of the gear treadmill. We'll see what they actually do though.

I've heard the dungeons get VERY hard in explorable.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

You missed a reason.

Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

Exactly.  And there's no gear progression in GW2.

So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever. 

People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss.  But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.

 

Look here there is its more of a equal progression then a steep progression.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/

Originally posted by Sojhin

I have already really written off WvWvW as a long term draw to the game as it does not really effect the game world besides buffs--you just do not have the conflict (the risk vs reward is just not there) as well as the absense of meaningful guild vs guild, and all combined with the lack of politics makes me believe the game may not have lifeblood. The in world content--the DE's atm is just plain too faceroll as well. 

Right now I believe the game needs to be "harder" on the pve end and at the same time perhaps introduce a greater form of risk vs reward on the pvp side.

Well, they have said there will be harder DEs, and that some of the boss DEs will be much harder than others.  I'd imagine you'd see more of that at higher levels generally speaking.  So we'll have to see what things are like.  I'm sure if there's a call for more challenging DE content then we'll get it.

We do have 5-mans in GW2 for challenging solo content as well as a large variety of fun content that gives you stuff.

I think the more fact that regular content scales will help things a good bit.  However "faceroll" DE content is, it can't be nearly as faceroll as doing solo quests with 2+ people in a standard MMO.  Merely doing things with others adds longevity.  So the fact all activity is designed to be group friendly (save for crafting) helps a great deal.

Arena.Net didn't have problems making hard content in GW1, so I expect they'll be more than happy to provide some in GW2.  Might take a little bit to get a feel for what that means though.

Originally posted by GamerUntouch

I've heard the dungeons get VERY hard in explorable.

Yeah, me too. I think that will be the challenging part of PvE. Lots of wipes and changing of builds to make it work. 

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

You missed a reason.

Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

Exactly.  And there's no gear progression in GW2.

So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever. 

People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss.  But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.

 

The problem isn't progression for GW2, it's that raids would be a cluster____.

If you look at events with a massive zerg, it's a spamfest.

Raids would be that, with people randomly dieing, it'd be VERY VERY VERY hard to coordinate, most people couldn't do it.

I mean, if Arenanet can get it to work, the power's to them, but I can't see it happening.

Originally posted by GamerUntouch

Originally posted by laokoko

Exactly.  And there's no gear progression in GW2.

So raiding + GW2 = Best idea ever. 

People'll only need to raid for the fun of beating boss.  But they dont' need to do it over and over again just to get their gear to drop.

The problem isn't progression for GW2, it's that raids would be a cluster____.

If you look at events with a massive zerg, it's a spamfest.

 

Raids would be that, with people randomly dieing, it'd be VERY VERY VERY hard to coordinate, most people couldn't do it.

 

I mean, if Arenanet can get it to work, the power's to them, but I can't see it happening.

Yeah, that's another point. It's a lot easier to design raids (and play them) when there are 3 strongly defined roles to work with.

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Asuran24
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).

What you ignore is that raiding becomes a huge focus because making raids is a massive amount of effort.

Now, WoW theoretically could have done raids and a lot of other content too.  Heck, WoW is probably the only game that's ever been on the market that made enough money to potentially have been able to make content faster than players could get through it.  But they'd have to have hired on more people and that would have eaten into their massive profit margin.

Point is, one raid is the equivalent of a massive amount of other sorts of content.  Given the fact companies have limited resources, going with raiding does mean massive sacrifices in other areas.  That's why such games are designed around raiding, since they are pouring so many resources into it, they want to make sure people play it since they can't do a lot of other content.

Well wow does do alot of content as many of their raids when they need to add additional content (like when the playerbase steam-rolls the exsting content) does not normally just toss out a raid alone, but instead does push out a raid an afew instances (like in lk you had the 5 man toc with the raid of tocm and then you also had ice crown with the raid having three smaller instances packaged with it, yet it was not till we actually completed or it was needed that more instannced came out.). Even looking back in bc which ahad alott of content updates in it complaed to either lk or cata they produced it when the need arose really.To me though as you largely stated with raidig taking more resources (also with gw2 not using a subb they need to further make sure their money is used wisely) raiding/large scale content would need to be more of a cash shop (none gem purchase) style affair, where the players actually that want the content would fuel the demand an pay for it solely, an so that way it would both allow for raiders to enoy it while also give them a way of not wasteing the money of those that would not use it on it.

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by colddog04

I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.

Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.

The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players.  Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult.  Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them.  Ugh.  I'd rather get other content instead.

I agree in the long run i would rather have mre small scale content added to a game then larger scale content, but not to the point of fully omitting any large scale from the game (For me DE content is kinda a mix of both as it is build to be used by all sizes of groups largely as such i would say it is more of variable content then small or large scale.). Yet here is the issue in many games even when they add a raid to the game's content line-up it is never just the raid normally, as it normally has several smaller scale content instances packaged in with it or quite close by, but the other issue is gw2 being b2p might change their ability to keep up such a content upkeep. Even using wow as an example they got many of their raids either came with an adition instance/s or the playerbase was not even yet to where they needed more content to pay thru (such as when many of the bc raids hit in wow the playerbase was still largely trying to clear many fo the herocs and first few raids.).

But really look at WoW.  Look at how much time and effort goes into Raids and how the number of raids they add is comparable to the number of dungeons in content updates (expansions are different, but content expansions after that, not so much).  The Devs themselves have commented on how raid making eats up immense amounts of time, which is why WotLK was designed to get as many people raiding as possible (and Cata continued that philosophy).  Burning Crusade was different because Raids weren't being designed for most people to get through them...so most people didn't.

It isn't like one raid boss takes as much time as one dungeon boss.  The raid boss is MUCH harder to design because of the fact you have to deal with a lot more combos of class abilities and stacking of those abilities.  One reason why classes have become more and more similar in WoW over time (another bad thing because of raids).

When one considers that instead of making a raid you could get something like 5+ dungeons or an entirely new zone or more...I'd rather go with zones and dungeons.  Isolated big bosses that appear in the open world and don't require the same immense amount of balancing are better.

I want to play a raidless game not because I hate the very idea of raiding*, but because I enjoy all the others things more than raiding.  Raiding means a LOT less of all the other stuff.

*Which is not to say that I don't have a lot of problems with how traditional raiding is worked into the game.

Originally posted by GamerUntouch

The problem isn't progression for GW2, it's that raids would be a cluster____.

If you look at events with a massive zerg, it's a spamfest.

 

Raids would be that, with people randomly dieing, it'd be VERY VERY VERY hard to coordinate, most people couldn't do it.

 

I mean, if Arenanet can get it to work, the power's to them, but I can't see it happening.

You could say Raids would be like that in any game, because it's hard to get people to coordinate.  There's no inherent reason why this would apply to GW2 anymore than any other game.  Though of course GW2 would require different design parameters since you don't have heal spam.

But of course you CAN get people to coordinate if you plan things out and spend a lot of time on it.  Thing is, most people don't want to spend a ton of time working on that sort of thing which is what raiding requires.

MoP is coming soon I am sure it will appeal to you, how about you stick with every MMORPG made since 2004 and leave us w/o that crap.

the problem with raiders are two folder:

1. Raiders will NEVER be happy with raids in other games and eventually return to WoW. Anet said it best, you can't beat WoW at it's own game.

2. Raiders make a fraction of the population less than 10% of wow and as a result of problem (1), there is no point bothering with raids. Development resources should not be waste on content worthless to > 80% players.

other fun reasons, raids only exist as a way to significantly reduce gear progression thereby getting suckers to pay more subs. 

Originally posted by GamerUntouch

The problem isn't progression for GW2, it's that raids would be a cluster____.

If you look at events with a massive zerg, it's a spamfest.

 

Raids would be that, with people randomly dieing, it'd be VERY VERY VERY hard to coordinate, most people couldn't do it.

 

I mean, if Arenanet can get it to work, the power's to them, but I can't see it happening.

WoW had a ton of gimmick fights and GW2 would be open to that style of raid despite not having the trinity healers or tanks. (Stand here to absorb a beam, don't stand here when there's a green cloud, move out if you are the bomb, etc)

I think the biggest argument against raiding in GW2 is that adding more people to encounters would not improve the game experience. I remember the 40 man raids in WoW and I don't think that they were any more fun than the 10 mans or even some of the harder 5 man dungeons. Adding more players just makes it more difficult to organize groups. Adding more players to an encounter doesn't make the content any more difficult.

ANet could add raids. I could definitely see how many of the WoW raid encounters could work without a trinity. I just don't think there's a very good reason to do so.