two flaws in your argument.

people REALLY don't like raiding because of elitest idiots who want the game to be about math rather then fun, no one plays a game to do calculus or geometry. if you like math that much go play Eve.

gw2 has raiding it's just not the type people are typically used to, it doesn't KEEP players from seeing content, the content is right there in front of you in the open world WITH CONSEQUENCES.

oh and you do have to be organized especially in a game like GW2 where there are no dedicated healers keeping your dps butt up, you actually have to think for a change which makes me wonder why people like OP are so against GW2's style of gaming, could it be that you are the one that can't handle the challenge? 

I'm beginning to think so, because this post is no different then the posts about why pvp doesn't have armor with stats. 

And finally, we've seen just how much the same old raids and dungeons have been received with a scifi sticker over the mechanics, SWTOR didn't just lose subs because of a lifeless meaningless world experience, it was also because of 2004 gaming concepts everyone has seen before.

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

And here's a few reasons people like raiding:

• They like to wiggle their epeen single-drop raid pieces infront of other people.
• They are controll freaks and like to tell people what to do during raids.
• They think they're better than everyone else.
• They think that there's only one way to play the game: their way.
• Their job sucks in real life, so raiding makes them feel important.

---

Originally posted by Krimzin
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

---

Originally posted by gordiflu

And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.

 

 I would assume the guy doing ballet would have stronger calves, is better at picking grown people off the ground and flinging them across a room, and spends a lot more time hanging around with scantily clad women instead of sweaty dirty guys, and is more likely to end up doing work taking the role of a martial artist in a movie.

... man.  Being a guy who does ballet sounds pretty badass. :(

Also, from my time at work, I'm pretty sure chess is mostly a sport for angry old black men who like to trash talk you 'Yeah, you see that?  Your bishop.  I took your bishop, you're my BITCH.  Oh, you going to cry now?"

... that's my personal experience, anyway. :)

Originally posted by itgrowls

two flaws in your argument.

people REALLY don't like raiding because of elitest idiots who want the game to be about math rather then fun, no one plays a game to do calculus or geometry. if you like math that much go play Eve.

gw2 has raiding it's just not the type people are typically used to, it doesn't KEEP players from seeing content, the content is right there in front of you in the open world WITH CONSEQUENCES.

oh and you do have to be organized especially in a game like GW2 where there are no dedicated healers keeping your dps butt up, you actually have to think for a change which makes me wonder why people like OP are so against GW2's style of gaming, could it be that you are the one that can't handle the challenge? 

I'm beginning to think so, because this post is no different then the posts about why pvp doesn't have armor with stats. 

And finally, we've seen just how much the same old raids and dungeons have been received with a scifi sticker over the mechanics, SWTOR didn't just lose subs because of a lifeless meaningless world experience, it was also because of 2004 gaming concepts everyone has seen before.

yea i don't see why people feel just because it doesn't have instanced dungeon raids it doesn't have raiding. By any standard definition of raiding i have ever seen GW2 surely has raiding

Originally posted by clumsytoes44
Best raid's I have ever done was For The Horde achievement.

That was fun no matter what the result...too bad the overbuffing of guards and the loss of surprise attacks due to flight being allowed in the old world caused my realms interest in city raids to drop like a rock.

Originally posted by Roybe

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Roybe

Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip* 

You do realize that reality =/= to loud shouting or whining on forums.

Yep I do.  Pretty sure my post did neither.

*snip* 

The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way.  I agree.  However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding.  Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason.  It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions.  No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did.  It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content.

Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun).  Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are  also the goals I set forth for my employees.  So yeah...your point is valid.

I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing.  So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.

As for your second point, yes, there is a line.  The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding.  Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.

So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close".   Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".

The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players.  Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.

Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player.  I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content.  Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800.  Big whoop, we can make up for that.  But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc.  And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave.  Its not elitist, its not assholey.  Its being realistic.

I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me.  Sadly, some people would.

"They think they are some kind of special, superior race. I'm glad I've never been infected by that crap mindset, even when we were clearing heroics like if they were normals."

Roflmao, heroics2gud

] [/quote] The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way.  I agree.  However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding.  Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason.  It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions.  No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did.  It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content. Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun).  Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are  also the goals I set forth for my employees.  So yeah...your point is valid.[/quote]I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing.  So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.

As for your second point, yes, there is a line.  The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding.  Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.

So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close".   Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".

The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players.  Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.

Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player.  I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content.  Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800.  Big whoop, we can make up for that.  But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc.  And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave.  Its not elitist, its not assholey.  Its being realistic.

I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me.  Sadly, some people would.[/b][/quote]

This is exactly what raiding im talking about. Im not talking about the douche bag elitist. I enjoy raiding with a guild of people I enjoy running with. We have set stop times and extra players to fill in when RL shit comes up, which is does often.

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

1. • They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
    
2. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
    
3. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
    
4. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

1.   Wrong.   I played, on average, more than most people. 

2.  I was one of the two 'first string' tanks in my guild and well respected through-out the server.  Even when I log back in to visit, I get tons of invites, some for raids added after i left.   I was also well respected as a Rune-Keeper healer and had a Mini, too.   I was even invited to be the #1 Captain on a Raid the first day my Captain hit Level 75, even though he had NO raid gear and I couldn't trait the full Leader of Men skill-set.

3.  I was a guild officer.   I've started and run successful guilds in many games and almost always end up in some officer role.   I've been recruited to elite guilds in every game I've played and never been rejected for being a toss-pot.   I'm well known as a socializer/master-craftsman type who will help anyone, noob-to-elite with no expectations of reward or a 'payback.'   I will, to support my guild, even do things that I don't care about -- like PvP and Raiding -- because I'm a team player.    My friends' list is long and full of people from elite-gamers to total-noobs all of whom I treat with the respect due from how they treat others and not some silly game 'Elitist' achievments that have zero worth in the real world.

4.  Nope.  I had full raid gear on all my 75s.   I had Second-age legendary weapons.   I had elite jewelry.   

Looks like, to me, you're talking out your butt.   You want to make up reasons why YOU are SUPERIOR to others.  That OTHERS hate raiding because they are INFERIOR.

I hate raiding because it's ****ing boring!  Sure, the first couple of times when you're learning the raid it's fun.  But then, it's the same crap every week.  

I look at dedicated raiders as people who go to Baskin-Robbins once a week and eat nothing but a scoop of vanilla for three months.  Then eat a scoop of chocolate for three months.   Then eat a scoop of strawberry for three months.   Then start back with vanilla...   It's 31-Flavors.  Break out and enjoy something else!

So I say screw that raider raid-grinding mindset.   I get a new flavor each week.  I often mix-and-match.   Better yet, sometimes I skip the ice-cream store and get pastries.  Or donuts.   Or frozen yogurt.   

Raiding may as well be playing a Korean grind-fest MMO.    Same stupid crap every week for months.  And no matter how many times I explain this...   Some people never get it...  

Originally posted by Roybe

Whew! I thought most people complained due to the level of elitism, the lack of patience by, and the overall poor attitude of the people that raided.  Seeing that it's the non-raiders fault due to being a thin skinned, lazy, basement dweller makes everything so much easier to understand!  BTW, I still think raiding is over rated.

 

lol.   Great response.

Originally posted by Krimzin...

There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid...

Let’s comment on your personality breakdown.

The people who are diehard raiders do so because of personality disorders. 

One - They continuously seek the "pat on the back" for completing the perceived challenging raid.  Without this continuous positive reinforcement they would seek it elsewhere.

Two - Raiders actually do not care for people in general, but instead they are almost wholly self-serving individuals who need the “Mercedes” type gear for self-promotion.

Three – More than likely they will be either a tank or healer since other classes are usually filled by the “other people” or PUG folk. 

I can say more, but this summary says enough.

Holy Bat-Deja-Vu, Batman.  It's like 2005 all over again.

There is nothing wrong with raiding per say but it only caters to a certain set of gamers and having the entire endgame dedicated to that subset of gamers kills it for others. When all there is to do is raiding, it gets boring. WoW overplayed raiding/instances and now they are pretty boring in any MMO unless they are drastically different.

When raids finally get back to being a special occurance they will become epic again. GW2 is taking a step towards that by making them linked to a large chain of events so they aren't always available. All I can say is that I definitely won't be missing raid nights or being forced to join a large guild while playing GW2,

Raiding isn't a problem, it's the gear treadmill that segregates the community.

Who actively does the lower tier raids now? Unless you're powerlevelling someone, it makes it obsolete very quickly.