The problem with raiding is that once you've done it once its pretty freaking dull. Coming from a PvP guild we've never really struggled with raids, a lot of the time we'd have pvp builds in our raid parties in a variety of games since we couldn't be bothered to respec and the content was trivial. 

Now in GW2 instanced content for larger parties would work, mostly because the action orientated combat isn't dull. The reason its not being thought of is to minimise the effect of instancing on end game and keeping people in the world. 

pretty much every theme park I've played except for War (open world pvp) and Rift (rifts but to a very lesser extent) turned the max level experience into a lobby game.

There are tons of games with raids lets have one that trys to draw end game quality out into the real world.

@OP...

  Who is to say that GW2 dont have raids? If you played EQ, can you remember those open world raids? There will be more of those and less those instanced ones. The "Orr" is supposed to work in similar manner too.

EDIT: I meant to say 'in similar manner to open raids', not to be confused with the 'similar manner in instanced raids'

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

Actually you have that wrong.. there is what, 4 or 5 OTHER threads whinning that there is no raids. Only people that are complaining about raids are people defending themselves from elitest who say things like "They are too lazy to do work" or that "they dont have a personality".  

Yeah, lets start a thread saying that the way you play a video game is the right way, everyone who doesnt agree with you are "lazy, lack skill, and dont have a personality to speak of".  Seems you are pretty lazy, since there are a number of threads just like this you could post into. Or is it because you are such a special raiding butterfly that you need your own thread? Hmm, personality seems a little harsh, with the insults and stuff. 

IN closing, GW2 doesnt have raids, perhaps a Panda will be more your skill level.

Originally posted by Grimlock426

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

You missed a reason.

Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online. I guess GW2 does have other end game activities, but the same can be said about dungeons or anything in an MMO for that matter. GW2 end game will be no different, I promise you.

Originally posted by Skarecrow7

Actually you have that wrong.. there is what, 4 or 5 OTHER threads whinning that there is no raids. Only people that are complaining about raids are people defending themselves from elitest who say things like "They are too lazy to do work" or that "they dont have a personality".  

actually I think the only people complaining about the lack of raids are the ones that got beaten down about the black lion chest/key boosts argument. It seems progression/raids is here to replace the ridiculous P2W arguments.

Originally posted by ace80k

So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online. I guess GW2 does have other end game activities, but the same can be said about dungeons or anything you do in an MMO.

 If all you're doing is banging on keep doors, then you're doing it wrong.

Also, the nice thing about PvP is that they're considerably less predictable than raids.

The fight to be best WvW server or best structured PvP team is something where the tactics will constantly have to change to keep up with other people.

Humans > AI.

Raids aren't like they used to be honestly,  the kind of time and organization needed for today's raids are too much compared to the  likes of throwing a big raid down in old EQ/DAOC days, now it's all elitist gear checkers herding the little sheeplings trying to get the purples.  

Raiders are the minority, and by a large amount.  So why focus time and resources into developing content for the minor few.

Coming in here and putting down your statement just shows the raider mentality.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.

• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.

• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.

• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

The first I can understand, a lot of people can't commit that kind of time. 

Lack of skill?  Pshhaw,  come pvp and I'll show you skill.

Personality?  Not every non-raider is a sheepling eager to gain gear by smacking big mobs around.  A lot of us rather pvp.

Too lazy to get neccessary gear, or maybe they just don't care to raid?  PVE IS BORING.

Originally posted by ace80k

So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online. I guess GW2 does have other end game activities, but the same can be said about dungeons or anything you do in an MMO.

I know you were talking to somebody else but I can say that I beat on keep doors in Camelot for 4 straight years and never once got bored or tired of it. To this day it remains my favorite end game of all time.

Warhammer had a fairly crappy adaption of end game rvr imo, just my opinion. It wasn't even in the same league.

GW2 WvWvW feels a lot more like Camelot than Warhammer did, albeit minus the realm ranks which is fine by me.

Not saying that WvW should be the end all for all people, but for me it really is a perfect combination of large scale raiding and rvr.

WvWvW being fun does depend on others taking part in it, but I am banking on GW2 being a pretty successful mmorpg. Camelot only had what, 250k at their peak I think, and the RvR was amazing for a really long time to a lot of us.

My wife HATES pvp. But even she loved Camelots RvR at end game and played it for many years. It's a whole different level of pvp. Not to everyone's liking for sure, but certainly different enough from structured or open pvp that it can be a lot of fun to even those who are PvE'ers at heart.

I guess my point is that for some, WvW could possibly last many years and might never get boring. For other's I am sure it will get boring. But no game was never meant to please everyone.

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

When you purchase your product make sure it has or does what you need it to not hope all products will change into what you want. GW2 basic group concept and design is different as such it's more about passive grouping. Just like everybody we been there doing the greedy grind (raiding) in many games for many years and I for one look forward to this change and are glad Anet had the balls ot do something different.

Originally posted by dageeza
I could counter the OP with many equally or even more repulsive things about why raiders like to raid but i wont waste my time..;)

Then I'll give it a shot.

1. Raiders are most likely those who are in college or younger because people with jobs generally either have to carefully organize their time in order to squeeze in a raid, or simply don't have the time to do so.
2. Raiders are people who have been ridiculed in real life for a lack of skill, talent, or ambition, so they get the praise and ego from raiding because it's the only place they can excel.
3. The personality of a raider is generally that of a foulmouthed egomaniac who only sees other people in the raid as a means to the end; that is, phat lewt.
4. Raiders treat the game like work because it's all they have; take it away and they are worth nothing. That, or they love bossing people around.
5. ALSO, your opinon about raiding only matters if you complete it on the hardest difficulty, have over 9000 achievement points, have 2200 rating in Arena, and have played MMOs since the beginning of the genre. Everyone else is apparently a braindead shmuck who only exists to mindlessly praise the elite wannabes.

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

Oh hey good evening. I'm ex-military as well, currently in the reserves after doing 10 years active. So that being said let me start by saying I like raids as well. Something about going into an unknown place and coordinating efforts to down bosses and getting nice loot in the process that has my rpg geeky side tingling. However I don't mind in the least that GW2 doesn't have it.

Of course that's one of the first things I looked for, however I just feel that this game really doesn't need it as their approach is not end game as most would put it. But if were going to talk about end game let's do so. I think with GW2 the journey is the reward as with other games say Rift for example (Love Rift btw) you get the reward at the end. Just 2 different ways of doing things.

You should relax and wait on this whole..it will keep me busy for awhile scenario.. who knows you might actually come to like the way they are choosing to approach this game.

I think the way things are now, there aren't enough people to do raids any more in their current form. The whole set time thing is hard to schedule and coordiante with people that have other issues going on. It would be nice though and if you or anyone is grouping up to do any exploring, dungeoning or whatever...just PM here. Well that is if we end up on the same server lol.

Originally posted by Krimzin

There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

 

 I'm sure this has already been said, but there is at least one major category that your list is missing:

• People who did progression raiding for years and grew tired of it

Originally posted by ace80k

So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online. 

WARs RvR failed not because it was boring but because it actually promoted not fighting at all. The most optimal way to play RvR was to trade keeps/flags, you got way more points by capturing them than trying to defend them. Then you had the issue of it being a 2 faction game, most servers where massively unbalanced and that just made it worse.

Theres also the fact that WAR itself is a game of poor quality, it was no where near games like WoW/GW2 in terms of its production. Things like broken end game systems and gear grinding never even got chance to become an issue because most people quit way before then.

GW2 on the other hand promotes the right type of gameplay, actually trying hold keeps, holding camps to cut off supply etc but still keeps the overall WvW gameplay relatively simple. Everyone has their limits of course when it comes to playing a game over the long term but to compare GW2 to WAR in such a simple way just shows a complete lack of understanding on your part.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Originally posted by Roybe

Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

Whew! I thought most people complained due to the level of elitism, the lack of patience by, and the overall poor attitude of the people that raided.  Seeing that it's the non-raiders fault due to being a thin skinned, lazy, basement dweller makes everything so much easier to understand!  BTW, I still think raiding is over rated.

 

You do realize that reality =/= to loud shouting or whining on forums.

Yep I do.  Pretty sure my post did neither.

The vast majority of raiders are not elitists min maxers who like to lord over their gear and l33t h4x0r skills over the stupid plebian n00bs.  Do those people exist? yes.  Like the OP i've been raiding in mmo's since original EQ, and out of the well over 500 different poeple i've raided with, maybe 15-20 were those douchey guys.

What you dont understand is we hate them just as much as you do.

Are their guilds comprised entirely of those type of people?  Yes, but they might be 3 or 4 guilds out of the 50 or 60 that are progressing on the content.

Now, on the flip side of the coin, like the OP mentioned, is the average raider going to get pissed when someone can't learn after 5 or 6 tries not to stand in the big assed pire of exploding firey death?  Yes, at some point we have to draw the line and tell someone they're simply either not capable of it, or not trying hard enough.  Either way its producing a result that is holding everyone else back.

Just like if you're trying to compete for a football championship you don't grab some random guy off the street and let him play wide receiver just because you feel bad for him.

That doesn't make the people on the football team elitists with no patience and a poor attitude, its just reality.

The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way.  I agree.  However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding.  Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason.  It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions.  No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did.  It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content.

Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun).  Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are  also the goals I set forth for my employees.  So yeah...your point is valid.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Krimzin

 

It's just a matter of taste.  In video games.  VIDEO GAMES.  Since when did somebody preferring pong or pacman really amount to anything serious in the real world, or demonstrate a lack of character in some respect?

Since the race of man started walking the earth. Even before. Even animals show their personalities when playing. I have two cats. They don't play the same way, becouse they don't have the same personality. My brothers and I did not play the same games all the time when we were kids. I was into the chess, they were not. My friends who also play videogames, play different ones according to their personalities. My girlfriend plays the sims, I find that game stupid and boring but then she tells me I am nuts when I am checking gear combinations with my calculator just to get 0.1% more DPS.

It does show. Some people are good at analizing things and those are the guys who usually work out clever strategies for new challenges. Some people are lazy and those are the guys who don't pay attention and die easy. Etc etc.

Of all the living beeings in this planet, we, the human race, are most probably the most playful of them all, and yes, our personalities do show on the way we play and on what we play.

And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.