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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why gear progression is actually a good thing

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144 posts found
  Xten

Novice Member

Joined: 8/13/12
Posts: 127

8/16/12 11:49:37 AM#41
Originally posted by snapfusion

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

 

Having no gear grinding progression like GW2 makes the Good players good and the Great players great and the bad players to intend to become a good player through practice and actually playing and learning instead of just picking up their 'greatness' from the floor after a mob kill, just like it is supposed to be .
  Skarecrow7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 342

8/16/12 11:50:08 AM#42
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

 

There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8532

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

8/16/12 11:50:21 AM#43
Pick your poison, there are more then enough MMO´s based on gear progression. Sadly for you, this game is not one of them.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Anubisan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 1827

8/16/12 11:50:35 AM#44
Originally posted by redfrick
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

 

That is definitely a possibility and for players that must have gear progression to feel complete in a game I understand why they would not enjoy GW2. But I know a lot of people that are just plain fed up with being tied to a video game.

 

I understand where those people are coming from. I have often felt that way myself. However, that does not mean that there aren't tons of people who find it absolutely necessary to their enjoyment of an MMORPG. Gamers in this particular genre are used to working towards long-term goals and usually those include stat upgrades from new equipment. Take that away and what do you have? A game with potentially very little long-term appeal to the gamers who are usually the most hardcore players. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I really see nothing in this game that will keep people like that when the content is exhausted... which I forsee will happen very quickly. Fortunately, due to the fact that the game is B2P, they will never have to report any loss of subs... since there aren't any.
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6977

8/16/12 11:50:56 AM#45
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

 

To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"

 

I came from the era of pen and paper games like Stormbringer, and Warhammer. Stat progression is something I was raised in. GW2 cost 60 bucks. As I've always said I plan to purchase down the road. Now that the WvWvW/mystic chest dibacle has been cleared (or so it seems) up, I may purchase soon than later. SPvP seems legit, and a safe haven from the gem/gold economic debates. Besides, against my better judgment, I'm a sucker for hype ;) edit - for the people who like to take my post and twist them. I AM NOT LEAVING TSW anytime soon. The potential, skill cap if you will is much higher :p
  Mithrandolir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1674

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

8/16/12 11:52:21 AM#46

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Anubisan</i>
<br><b>I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.</b></blockquote>
<p> </p>

But there are goals. They just are not the same goals that are already out there in so many other themeparks. Some people who live for the gear grind will not want to play this game in the same way that those of us who dislike the gear progression don't play those other games.

I think people are are making a serious miscalculation in their figuring of those of us who will play a long time for cosmetic or minor stat changes. I played EQ non stop for years and I changed armor and weapons a total of 5 or 6 times! And that includes starter gear. I never, ever went after new gear in EQ aside from my totemic armor and my epic weapon quest.

I also played UO for many years straight, as well as AC1, and never went after any gear in those games either, aside from trading with others for cosmetic changes. Heck, in AC1 I even traded DOWN stats in order to look better! And I loved it.

And in DAoC I RvR'd for years without caring at all about my gear. Sure that game had realm ranks and stuff to shoot for, but I (and I know I am the minority here) didn't care at all about that stuff either. But I am sure GW2 will add something similar over time here.

All in all, there are people out there who prefer to play without the gear grind. We are certainly fewer in numbers, but then we really haven't had a great mmorpg to suit our desires in a long, long time. So we'll see how it turns out. In the end, I still say options in the market are good. We really need a change of pace in the themepark market, and ArenaNet took that bull by the horns here. Even if it crashes and burns on them, which is highly unlikely, it would be better than using the same old progression that is in every other themepark, imo.


  Valkaern

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

8/16/12 11:52:23 AM#47
Originally posted by snapfusion

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

 

You seem to be forgetting or ignoring (maybe because it would destroy your theory) that quite a few of us have carried on playing certain MMOs for YEARS after already having the best available gear in game. Yet we logged in daily to continue playing with friends in a fun environment. There are more than just WoW clones out there you know. Your sentiments may be true for you and seem (on your end anyway) like wisdom, but I can assure you it's not a universal truth by any stretch.
  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

8/16/12 11:53:04 AM#48
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

 

You'd be right if and only if there was nothing present to replace that archaic carrot grind. Fortunately for us, in GW2 there's plenty replacing it, from assorted sets of hard to obtain mostly cosmetic gear (which we can customize the stats on if we choose) to legendary weapons to a massive crafting system to sPvP to WvW to 100% map completions to... well, you get the point. In carrot-based games once you hit "endgame" you basically have two things to do, and only two things; gear grind in the latest raid or PvP. That's it. One raid or PvP. That's the whole of your endgame. In meat-based games like GW2 (to coin a phrase) you're allowed to go back and select from the entire buffett you've already been feasting on instead of only that one last tray at the end half filled with dried out carrots.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Dawnstar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 207

8/16/12 11:56:08 AM#49
Originally posted by thamighty213
Originally posted by Skarecrow7
Originally posted by thamighty213
Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD. The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones' That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

 

That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not. Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.

 

Some do but then you provide the grind in another form to them. Faction for titles or fluffy pets or a new great weapon or armor skin etc you don't have to tie core gameplay stats to the grind. No game has got this right yet IMO. I was subbed to SWG for 9.5 years (played it off and on though) and not once did I really feel like I had to grind, I stumbled upon my Jedi very early on a 7 prof unlock just off doing things I actually wanted to try. I loved space and RE'n but never felt like I was grinding parts for RE projects etc

 

In GW1 it was all about the cosmetics, and everyone wanted the coolest looking armor set or weapon. People worked hard to get these things, not because they had better stats, but because they looked the coolest!
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3703

8/16/12 11:57:24 AM#50
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

 

To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"

 

I came from the era of pen and paper games like Stormbringer, and Warhammer. Stat progression is something I was raised in. GW2 cost 60 bucks. As I've always said I plan to purchase down the road. Now that the WvWvW/mystic chest dibacle has been cleared (or so it seems) up, I may purchase soon than later. SPvP seems legit, and a safe haven from the gem/gold economic debates. Besides, against my better judgment, I'm a sucker for hype ;) edit - for the people who like to take my post and twist them. I AM NOT LEAVING TSW anytime soon. The potential, skill cap if you will is much higher :p

 

Yeah I hear you. My original wizard, Doofus, would be level 1,438 by now if I still played pen and paper D&D :) GW2 comes out the week I go back to work from vacation...no hurry for me. I'll be there playing this new shiny for a long time...and yeah, my TSW sub will continue for at least 5 more months after that.
  Anubisan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 1827

8/16/12 11:57:31 AM#51
Originally posted by Skarecrow7
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

 

There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.

 

There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

8/16/12 11:57:32 AM#52
Witnessing how gear progression turned pvp in closed beta from fun to not fun at all in live with tsw. I welcome the no gear thing.

Deliberate losers, keep traders, afkers, exploiters, farmers, poopsocking "elites" etc..
  dzoni87

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/23/08
Posts: 553

8/16/12 11:59:05 AM#53
Originally posted by snapfusion

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

 

Sorry, no offence intended, but what i read sounded more like "We need more carrot on a stick. Why? Because it makes me big and strong!! Yaay!!" to me :\ Try to look a situation from a bit different angle?

Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

8/16/12 12:02:16 PM#54
I have no problem with how eve does this though, specialise early be good at one thing, vets just have more options and can be good at several things

Or daoc, soft and hard stat caps, 99% good crafted gear etc..

It's just the wow model that leads to suck pvp. It's a socialist model that allows a poopsocking girlfriendless doleite to feel special about winning virtually because they have lots of spare time due to failing in real life.
  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

8/16/12 12:02:25 PM#55

I can once again edit posts. :) There is gear progression. There is no gear treadmill. MEaning the top end gear does not change every major content patch or whatever schedule other games have. 

 

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/

 

Summary

  • All level 80 gear is not the same
  • Exotic Gear is the max level gear in terms of stats (equal to legendaries)
  • PvE gear is designed by breaking up the stats of the PvP 798/569/569 amulet and putting it back on gear
  • Exotic gear at level 80 has 13% better stats than a Rare 80 item
  • All level 80 exotic gear will have the same "total attribute" points but different gear will have different attribute allocations e.g one exotic glove is 34/24/24 in power/precision/vitality while another is 34/24/24 in toughness/vitality/healing
  • The four confirmed ways of obtaining exotics are: dungeon tokens, WvW, crafting and the mystic forge. There may be other ways.
  • There are at least 8 crafted exotic sets that require globs of ectoplasm.
  • Exotic gear can take a long time to get (44+ dungeon runs or 75+ WvW hours) and this is presumably to offer more desirable stats and skins compared to the crafted sets.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Pouf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/06
Posts: 340

----
How can you kill someone who has no life?
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8/16/12 12:02:47 PM#56
I personally don't know how I will be. I'm someone who needs a carrot on a stick. I played Wow a lot and I loved to do achievements run, or transmog runs BUT I always felt like i was loosing my time doing that, because I could go grind for gear that would actually give me better stats. In guild wars 2 I will be able to do those things without having to worry about my friends getting stronger. But I don't know yet if that formulae will keep me addicted to the game enough for me to play for more than a month. God I'm waiting for the game so bad, but I do hope that i'll fall in love
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4393

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

8/16/12 12:03:34 PM#57


Originally posted by snapfusion
Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.


Gear Progression Is neither good nor bad. It's method of game play. If done properly, it can be fun. For the most part, I don't recall these arguments against gear progression being all that common back in the 1st 2 expansions in WoW, In fact, TBC progression was quite reasonable. I had characters that I raided with and did quite well, that still had some blues in a few slots. And my Hunter had the Legacy axe from Kara all through TBC. The progression from tier to tier was much less profound. As I can even recall the name of the items I had.

Progression got out of control When Blizzard shifted from a gradual character progression to shoving raiding down the player base's throats. In fact WoW's gear progression system was so broken, they had to introduce 5 man content that dropped better epic gear than the 20 man content from the same expansion and level cap. Now THAT is broken. I feel that as long as the player base has MANY options ranging from solo through 20man raids from which they can all aquire the same level of gear and that the item you aquired last week isn't obsoleted simply because it's last week's gear. Epic items should be just that....Epic. And someoen having ANY epic item appropriate for their level should not be disqualified for not being properly geared. And gear improvements should be kept slight.

One of the arguments I disagree with is the one that comes up all the time. As you said above "It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill)." I find this argument to be inaccurate. The terrible players typically don't get the gear. They usually won't or more than likely cant. They are bad players and con't compete in PVP. They probably don't enjoy PVP that much, they have a harder time with it and tend to avoid it more. Those who have the PVP gear have it because they spent so much time in PVP. And to that extent, no matter how bad you were when you started, to have stuck it out for the time it takes to get that gear, you can't be that bad anymore, there is no way you can get that much practice and still be bad. If you were then from what I've seen, you'd have gotten weeded out.

Now, for those who did earn the gear and who got good at PVP, going into a battleground against those who quit will win. But, even in a GW2 environment, they'd' still win. Gear aside, they are still better PVPers with more practical experience.

Finally, I think the "No carrot" argument in GW2 is flawed. GW2 is still an MMO, to keep it going indefinitely, you have to build loops into the game for replayability. No matter how good or fun it is initially, You have to have a reason to continue to do it over and over especially after the fun of doing something once or twice wears off. So there has to be a goal in the game of some kind to drive people to repeat content not just once or twice, but dozens of times.

So then, if not gear....what will you grind?

Recently started playing SWTOR. I am posting updates to my experience in this thread:
SWTOR Experience

  Skarecrow7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 342

8/16/12 12:04:56 PM#58
Originally posted by Anubisan
Originally posted by Skarecrow7
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

 

There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.

 

There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.

 

I think just enjoying the game will keep the game going and build the community. You believe the game needs gear grind to keep people interested. Most mmo's out there have your gear grind, so we know what happens with that. We get to see what a game this big does without the grind post-WoW era. I really do believe it will be huge hit and a great community that is there because they want to be there, not just to get the next stat upgrade.

  Kzak

Novice Member

Joined: 12/13/05
Posts: 22

8/16/12 12:05:02 PM#59
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

 

To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"

 

See, here is the problem. Without gear progression players will keep moving on to the next new MMO. As the current expansion matures, the new expansion needs to reset ALL gear progression. The player then feels like everyone is starting out equal again on a level playing field. Without gear progression, we move on to the next new exciting MMO when the current expansion matures.
  Pravana

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/10
Posts: 48

8/16/12 12:08:03 PM#60
Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

Unless new content is pumped out on a regular basis to justify chasing the gear.... It will never be "meaningful". That why I no longer play "gear grinds". 

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