I like to think of this PvP like a fighting game. Each profession is a different character. Each with their own movesets and base stats. The difference and skill level comes from the player. Some characters will be easier to use than others, some more complex. Two people playing Ryu both have access to the exact same moves but it's the more skilled player that will prevail.

Now fighting games are pretty much the definition PvP. Two people going head to head in a pitched battle where skills are what matters.

Then you can unlock skins to make your character look much much cooler.

Originally posted by OldManFunk
Adding a time sink so that players have to grind gear doesn't make the game any more balanced or fun. Good players who grind out the same gear as bad players will still dominate them if the game mechanics allow it.

The gear grind time sink is a hook to keep players subscribed and playing even after they are no longer having fun. How is encouraging players to continue to play after the game is no longer fun to play a good thing for players?

There is nothing wrong with getting bored. Think of the most fun activity that you can outside of playing games. Do that too much and you'll burn out and become bored with it.

If you're looking for an activity that requires a lot of time in order to obtain an advantage over others so that you can feel better than others then why not get a job?

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by clumsytoes44
Carrot on a stick no thank's. And honestly what game doesn't get boring if it's the only 1 you play?

 

You would be amazed at how long someone will play a game they are actually burned out on in the quest for better gear.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by OldManFunk
Adding a time sink so that players have to grind gear doesn't make the game any more balanced or fun. Good players who grind out the same gear as bad players will still dominate them if the game mechanics allow it.

The gear grind time sink is a hook to keep players subscribed and playing even after they are no longer having fun. How is encouraging players to continue to play after the game is no longer fun to play a good thing for players?

There is nothing wrong with getting bored. Think of the most fun activity that you can outside of playing games. Do that too much and you'll burn out and become bored with it.

If you're looking for an activity that requires a lot of time in order to obtain an advantage over others so that you can feel better than others then why not get a job?

 

Your right and if you read my post you will see I acknowledged it made good players great and great players amazing. What we are talking about is the skill bonus that is achieve (reward) for your time in game through gear. Its one of the things that keep people active in the game after they have taken the keep for the 3000th time.

Originally posted by snapfusion

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

Originally posted by snapfusion

Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:

It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.

It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).

In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.

It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.

You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.

No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.

And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.

EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.

Weird, here's the basic unformatted text editor again.

Gear treadmill is closer to how to describe this phenom because it never ends in the case of mmos so it's not a natural thing, people get stuck in this endless grind spiral and can't enjoy anything. GW2 DOES have progression without the gear, it's called skill points. You put them wherever you want to enhance your toon, no need for gear.

Gear with enormous bloated skill upgrades do nothing but cause an inflation. Look at everyone's favorite, WoW. MoP as an expansion will most likely bring a huge DPS requirement ("What you're not doing 36k dps? NEWB!" would be what we'd hear next.)

It's also not good as a pvp standard, it allows players who already have it easy with macros on a tab target button masher, to have an unfair advantage over those other players who would otherwise normally beat them with no issues with skill.

So let's recap, just because there's a progression model there that you don't like, doesn't mean there's no progression model there AT ALL.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Weird, here's the basic unformatted text editor again.

Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

Originally posted by snapfusion

Originally posted by Purgatus
You mean we as gamers are going to have to play the game for fun, and not progression! (Shudder)

 

Correct for awhile, but do you think the fun is endless? Riding a roller coaster is fun the first 10 times but how many times would you ride the roller coaster if everytime you got off it you could do something you like a little better?

Originally posted by thamighty213
Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD. The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones' That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.

Originally posted by Skarecrow7

Originally posted by thamighty213
Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD. The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones' That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.

 

That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not. Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Mothanos

Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P

 

I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.

Originally posted by Anubisan
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.