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General Discussion  » GW2 no progressive PVE, now no progressive PVP

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120 posts found
  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 900

8/16/12 10:39:52 AM#21
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 

If the gear in WoW doesn't actually matter then how is it any different?

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

8/16/12 10:40:32 AM#22
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/16/12 10:47:06 AM#23
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 

 

I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.


  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7260

8/16/12 10:48:29 AM#24
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

 

Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though. If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1470

8/16/12 10:54:07 AM#25
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kyus_HoB

unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing. 

If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW. 

My job and career is where I progress.

Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.

Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.

 

I like to play games for the fun they provide not to watch numbers increase over time.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/16/12 10:54:27 AM#26
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

 

Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though. If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

 

I think you are overlooking the fact that many, like me(and probably most who play games like LoL). Will not really "look foward" to getting a new cosmetic weapon. Its more about the stats and the experience. To look at your stats and notice you are doing better, be part of a guild and play in tourneys. Basically have fun.


  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

8/16/12 10:55:04 AM#27
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 

 

I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

 

issue is most gear dependent pvp you only have a chance against people pretty close to your gear tier... For instance in Rift when it had 8 ranks a rank 4 had no chance on a rank 8 one on one many times my rank 8 could take on 4 or 5 low rankers at a time... Not a whole lot of challenge in that...

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Doomedfox

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/10
Posts: 696

8/16/12 10:55:22 AM#28
It seems a lot of you GW2 fans argue that without the gear progression its the skill that will determine who wins the fight. I can only laugh at that. Of course in theory you are right but it would only matter in a 1 on 1 fight but how often will that happen? The battlegrounds are group battles and the WvWvW certainly is aiming for even bigger group battles so the skill factor does not matter that much. Now if the game would have openworld pvp than it would be a different story but it does not have open world pvp..... That said i am rather neutral on the whole progression thing on the one hand its nice to allow everyone to be equally strong equipped on the other hand do i feel like its lacking a real goal to thrive for. Cosmetic items don't interest me i would always awe for a really awesome armor or weapon sets that would boost my class (most of the time i would never get the pieces tho but thats a different story) I would rather chase the really awesome carrot on a stick than a hallow carrot (fluff cosmetic items) If it really would only be about equality and the need for skill to win they could just rate equipment and allow everyone to join pvp fights for certain ranks of equipment (you could not use rated 10 equipment in a rated 5 battle for example) this way you would have it all the carrot thats worth beeing chased and the equal fights in pvp.
  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7260

8/16/12 10:59:27 AM#29
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 

 

I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

 

Kup you say a lot of things that are smart and I'll even go as far to say empirical at times, but this has to be one of your most unempirical pseudo smart post you have ever made. Presenting people who don't believe that gear is the sole factor determining winning and losing as a small group not representative of the pvp base as a whole is an unbelievably misconstured and insulting to the pvp community as a whole. To top it off you say fighting when odds are against you is not a challenge? You can do better than this kup. Does any of this make GW2 bad? No not at all. Will this affect retintion? We will see.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

8/16/12 11:01:38 AM#30
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

 

Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though. If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

 

It goes both ways. There are those that hated the itemization factor in many PvP aspects of games. Can't say it ever bothered me a lot because I always looks at it from a team perspective. I care if we win the match, event, or objective as a whole not if I personally have the most kbs or damage. However, I have to say there have been some games where the gear disparity between high ranking PvPers and those low level that are at times restricted due to tiered play is pretty ridiculous. Like I said there are plenty of other games out there where itemized tiered gear play an important factor in PvP. No reason to be bothered by it not mattering in this game far as I'm concerned. ...and it is something that some want. Look at the change Rift is even doing in regards to PvP.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  User Deleted
8/16/12 11:01:41 AM#31
To each his own. For me however, GW2 has nothing I need. That doesn't mean I want the game to do poorly though. I have always wondered why we have a "my game is better than your game" mentality. We all play and enjoy video games. Can't we get excited that fellow gamers are enjoying something other than what we ourselves enjoy? Its a lot like Linux fan boys. First your dumb for using Windows or apple then you suck for not using the same distro as them. Sad really.
  Kyus_HoB

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 186

8/16/12 11:03:02 AM#32
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

 

Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though. If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

 

It also has a fun carrot thats pretty tasty too :D!
  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7260

8/16/12 11:03:42 AM#33
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 

 

I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.

 

issue is most gear dependent pvp you only have a chance against people pretty close to your gear tier... For instance in Rift when it had 8 ranks a rank 4 had no chance on a rank 8 one on one many times my rank 8 could take on 4 or 5 low rankers at a time... Not a whole lot of challenge in that...

 

We've had this conversation before. We can rehash it though. RIFT was extreme in the beginning from rank one to rank eight. Like you said though rank five and beyond gear became less of a factor. What's wrong with giving those rank fivers something more than cosmetic to reach for?

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Mothanos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1855

8/16/12 11:04:12 AM#34

The thing is that people keep asking and whining about gear in GW2, there is gear yes, cosmetic, you can pimp the way your character looks, thats as far as that carrot goes, you dont need it to become powerfull.
The power is between your ears, not in stats you need to farm over and over and over again.

Man i met a mesmer and warrior when walking solo to a keep, they both died it was not my gear that made sure i won versus those 2 guys, it was the way i used my skills and dodges.

Ive also lost to a ranger who completely owned me as i dint know how to fight him and he used his skills perfectly.

That is for me the most rewarded experience i will ever get playing an mmo.


Do you guys know how much games i needed to play in random battlegrounds (SOTA COUGH COUGH) with random noobs who dont give a shit about teamwork, but just farm kills for 2 honor a pop...

Game after game after game you get nothing but scrubs who make your exprience of PvP horrible.

I played Aion also, and its even worse, your chanses if winning versus a geared guy who played a year longer then you are zero.

I coulnt even made a dent in his health as all i was seeing is (resisted) (resisted) then you get 1 shotted....

Gw2 is that game where the most competitive pvp players will hang out for at least a few years.
Iam not saying iam a pro player, but damn people, accept that Arenanet wants every1 to be on even ground.

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7260

8/16/12 11:04:21 AM#35
Originally posted by Kyus_HoB
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Wickedjelly
Originally posted by Kzak
Sadly with normalization, that's the way it is starting to look.

 Well this is actually what some are looking forward to. Depends on the gamer. I like it myself. Besides there are plenty of other games out there if you want gear to be the overriding factor in PvP.

 

Not overriding factor, but a motivational factor to learn and progress as pvpr. GW2 has a carrot never mistake that, That cosmetic carrot may not be as fulfilling to some though. If my garden hoe is as effective as your flaming sword of brilliance, I would probably look at you like you over paid for that thing.

 

It also has a fun carrot thats pretty tasty too :D!

 

:)

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12385

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

8/16/12 11:08:01 AM#36
I think we've reached that moment in the life cycle of a currently popular game on the MMORPG.com forums where one-offs like these will start to become a regular occurrence.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/16/12 11:10:21 AM#37

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Mothanos

he who needs gear to win from his oponents are weak minded simpletons, 

 

You see I have never once died and said "He must have better gear than me" I've always felt that way of thinking was a cop out. I felt the same way when people used to say in WoW "if we had arena weapons the field will be leveled" WoW gave them the gear. Hear me now WoW gave them the gear. They didn't have to earn it through progession in skill, it was gifted to them. They were happy though. The gear is all they really wanted. They didn't care about a level playing field. The gear was always there for them. They just had to get better. Guess what? When those players who used gear as an excuse got the gear. Those players were still bad. 

 

I embrace the challenge. 


 

I guess there is also a very niche crowd aside from those who want gear to beat on people just because they have spent more time in the game and those who want an equal footing. This other niche crowd(which bcbully seems to be a part of) is the ones who like the "challenge" in going up against folks with better gear than them. Sounds kind of not really challenging, but ok.


 

Kup you say a lot of things that are smart and I'll even go as far to say empirical at times, but this has to be one of your most unempirical pseudo smart post you have ever made.

Presenting people who don't believe that gear is the sole factor determining winning and losing as a small group not representative of the pvp base as a whole is an unbelievably misconstured and insulting to the pvp community as a whole.

To top it off you say fighting when odds are against you is not a challenge? You can do better than this kup.

Does any of this make GW2 bad? No not at all. Will this affect retintion? We will see.


 

I don't believe it is a big group of people, but that is just my opinion of it. I just don't see people in mmos saying "man, screw gear Im going in and fighting with whichever gear I have!". Its more along the lines of "ya, I gotta grind some pvp gear then Ill get in there". As far as challenging, I just find it more frustrating because not many games will allow you to do this. Most gear based pvp games I've played if you are undergeared there is no way for you to win, you have to at least be close in gear to stand a chance.

I believe GW2s system has a good chance, if we've learned anything from games that follow this system its that its got retention.


  Kyus_HoB

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 186

8/16/12 11:13:28 AM#38
Also bit of a side note more on PVE and WvW but there is gear progression in rarity brackets. I think people seem to think that you won't progress at level 80 at all.

In short

Your level 80 blues that you got from a merchant are equal in power to the level 80 blues you can craft.

\/ Increase in Power \/

the level 80 greens from a mob drop are equal to the level 80 greens you can get from a karma vendor

\/ Increase in power \/

lvl 80 yellow from dungeons are equal to lvl 80 yellow from a badge of honor vendor.

\/ Increas in Power \/

Golds and Legendaries are the same level these are of course rarer and require more work especially legendaries so if you get a legendary it will be as powerful as a gold.

The reason this is so good in PVE and WvW is that you can progress in differnet areas equally and there isn't huge gear stat inflation, just enough to make it worthwhile.

  Adzija

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 58

8/16/12 11:17:36 AM#39
Well... Since we have so many MMO games out there that do have gear progression in both PVP and PVE I think it's nice that we get something different. Clearly those that do want to chase that ''carrot'' everyone is talking about have lot of places to go, but those that just want to make a character and hop in PVP match from time to time should also have an MMO. I think it's very nice that you can go in PVP as soon as you make your character and be competitive (at least considering gear) straight away without needing to level to cap.Also no need to grind or craft PVP gear like you do in most other MMO games. Very good for players that like to PVP and want to be on same level in gear as all but have no time because of work/school or whatever.
  Skarecrow7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 342

8/16/12 11:18:53 AM#40
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kyus_HoB

unforuntunately for the great unwashed there is no hiding behind gear grinding here. you have to turn up and compete on an even footing. 

If you want progression, Tournaments, ranks and cosmetics are available in structured and PVP specific gear as well as Server rankings are available in WvW. 

My job and career is where I progress.

Video games is where I go to chill out and have fun with friends.

Not everyone is sold on cosmetics. This diesn't mean GW2 is a bad game, but for those who do not view cosmetics as a form of progression, there're questions about will GW2 be able to keep their attention.

 

And that is a great point. GW2 ISN'T for everyone. Hell, name one game that is? I like most of what Anet is selling, so I am buying. I didn't care for the quests and world of Tera, so I wrote a little review in the "Beta Review" forum and was done with it. Everyone has to figure out if the features that interest you out weigh the ones that you don't like. There is alot of excitement surrounding this game on here, and it is easy to want to join in even if you aren't sure if GW2 is a game for you.

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