Originally posted by Lelariol
Funcom devs should stop aiming at the sane and smart part of mmorpg community, since that part is so small and so less vocal than the majority to be near non existing... Trying to put some "culture" and thought into this genre is a useless effort. I feel sorry for them.

 Kinda like expousing the virtues of "National Geographic" to someone who watches "Jersey Shore" and "Tots with Tiares"

Damn sure I spelled that wrong ;)

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by Grunties

 

If people who care about those things are the problem I would hate to hear what you think the solution is...

Forums shouldn't be a venue for personal axes to grind.  Save that for your blog.  :)

Its funny that your unedited post had a comment about moderating posts with personal attacks, and then you edit it to say something like this :)

Victor,

I'll give you my personal skinny on TSW. I was extremely psyched about it, right up until the moment that I got the opportunity to try the beta. At which point I pretty much knew I wasn't going to be playing it. Frankly I didn't even bother playing the beta beyond a day or two. Here are the main points that drove me away from it:

 - I'm a guy armed with an assault rifle, so why is combat playing out pretty much like every fantasy themed MMO I've ever played. You could remove the assault rifle graphic and substitute in a bow or wand of magic missles and you really wouldn't notice the difference. Don't get me wrong I LOVE the idea of a modern/horror/sci-fi MMO, but as far as combat goes, TSW wasn't one. The standard vanilla MMO combat mechanics work perfectly well for fantasy based MMO's where you are dealing with swords and bows and magic. But once you go to a modern/sci fi theme and start dealing with things like assault rifles and shotguns, etc....that paradigm starts to break down. The player wants to actualy FEEL like they are using modern weaponry. Having those kind of armaments in a game actualy is a BIG DRAW to attract different types of players, but you THROW THAT AWAY if you aren't actualy using mechanics that reflect them. IMO, TSW should have gone with more of a 1st person style shooter mechanic. Maybe something like Fallen Earth did (who's combat really shines, IMO). That way you get the kind of combat that reflects the era and style of weapons being used....and for the horror portion you get the immediacy of experiencing it in the 1st person. You WANT the players to feel creeped out about whats lurking behind them just outside thier limited field of view...you WANT people constantly turning around to see what's behind them.

- Absolutely nothing in the origional portion of the game says, "GO OUT and interact with other players". One of the big highlights of this type of game is the level of social interaction it can foster. But in the beginning experience you feel completely disconnected from other players.

- Themematically the thing that makes Horror work as a genre is that you SLOWLY build suspense. You give SUBTLE little hints that things aren't quite. Somethings a little bit off, but you can never quite put your finger on what it is. There's just a small hint here or there for the player to follow...a mystery for them to solve....and they never quite know when something will jump out of the shadows at them. Pyrotechnics in the opening cut scene and inky black tenticals all over the place and subway stations floating off into an abysss in the first experience of the game is kinda like bringing Frodo to Mt. Doom in the 1st chapter. You've wasted all the dramatic elements that could be used to build the experience.  The Developers should have read some Stoker or Mary Shelly or Lovecraft before going to work on this...or watched some classic horror movies (House on Haunted Hill, The Fog, Salems Lot, etc) or even played some of the really good older single player horror games (Silent Hill) to get a feel for how to build a narrative for this type of genre. Instead it felt more like Buffy the Vampire slayer meets Freddy Kruger.

Essentialy, as far as I was concerned, they took a really AWESOME concept for a game and completely astro-turfed the execution. YMMV.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Kuppa
The aricle was OK. But I could not stand your f2p rant, I just don't agree with it. You basically made the f2p transition look like the greatest evil that could happen to a game.

"Free to Play" IS the greatest evil that could happen to a game that was DESIGNED around PayToPlay.

 

PayToPlay demands higher quality than FreeToPlay games do, and the rise of "Sub + CashShop" is even further pushing the envelope for bad products. If your product is good, and you know it's good, you won't ask more than $15/month. EvE knows they're a "niche" product, but they also know that they're a damn good one for the niche that they're in so they only charge $15/month and give FREE expansions.

 

You think TSW would do $15/month + FREE expansions? Heck no, TSW isn't a quality enough product for full & true "PayToPlay". TSW was designed around the idea of immediate cash flow from P2P+CashShop+Boxes for the first year, and then a transition to "F2P" next year (or later this year) to sustain the product. Don't believe me? Wait a couple more months for the announcement. TSW is as themepark as an MMO can get, and linear themeparks have a hard time keeping content up to pace with even "Casual" gamers unless they cater to every age range & type of person like WoW has and are mega-huge-successful money wise.

 

If you build a game from scratch AROUND the concept of a "Cash Shop" then you can go the 'Free'-To-Play route because then you're never considered a failure like SWTOR, but you're also not a good product.

 

I've NEVER played a "F2P" product that was developed around the idea of "F2P" from the start that was worth a single dime. The only playable "F2P" titles out now were actually P2P failures that went F2P to keep from closing down, and they're the only "F2P" titles out now that are half-playable.

 

We need a different name for "Free To Play" as the word "Free" is wholefully misleading, and quite frankly "F2P" is a lie entirely, nothing is EVER free.

 

 

So LoL is not a good product and is not worth a single time? Definately do NOT agree.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Kuppa
The aricle was OK. But I could not stand your f2p rant, I just don't agree with it. You basically made the f2p transition look like the greatest evil that could happen to a game.

"Free to Play" IS the greatest evil that could happen to a game that was DESIGNED around PayToPlay.

 

PayToPlay demands higher quality than FreeToPlay games do, and the rise of "Sub + CashShop" is even further pushing the envelope for bad products. If your product is good, and you know it's good, you won't ask more than $15/month. EvE knows they're a "niche" product, but they also know that they're a damn good one for the niche that they're in so they only charge $15/month and give FREE expansions.

 

You think TSW would do $15/month + FREE expansions? Heck no, TSW isn't a quality enough product for full & true "PayToPlay". TSW was designed around the idea of immediate cash flow from P2P+CashShop+Boxes for the first year, and then a transition to "F2P" next year (or later this year) to sustain the product. Don't believe me? Wait a couple more months for the announcement. TSW is as themepark as an MMO can get, and linear themeparks have a hard time keeping content up to pace with even "Casual" gamers unless they cater to every age range & type of person like WoW has and are mega-huge-successful money wise.

 

If you build a game from scratch AROUND the concept of a "Cash Shop" then you can go the 'Free'-To-Play route because then you're never considered a failure like SWTOR, but you're also not a good product.

 

I've NEVER played a "F2P" product that was developed around the idea of "F2P" from the start that was worth a single dime. The only playable "F2P" titles out now were actually P2P failures that went F2P to keep from closing down, and they're the only "F2P" titles out now that are half-playable.

 

We need a different name for "Free To Play" as the word "Free" is wholefully misleading, and quite frankly "F2P" is a lie entirely, nothing is EVER free

So LoL is not a good product and is not worth a single time? Definately do NOT agree.

The bottom line is that, if we accept that this model is actually 'free', going 'F2P' does not make these failed games any more fun.

If I wanted to play TSW I would be playing it. I would have paid for the client. If the folks that did buy it found it more then a month's worth of fun, they would be paying the £10 for another to keep on playing the game. The reason I didn't, and so many of them didn't, is because the game isn't fun enough for the majority. It is a ragged around the edges snooze fest with moments of 'that's cool'.

It's the game that's the issue, not the rev model.

The devs need to stop blaming the payment model (or metacritic!! or whatever else...) for their fails and face up that they simply need to make better games.

Ones we find fun enough to not mind spending money on. 

I'm not sure why I was hoping the OP's point would get across.. but I guess it's too late to stop the insanity of the pure hatred that exists here.  Just look at how many people felt the need to belittle the game in a public spotlight (even if they have never played it at release, don't plan on playing it or have no interest in it what so over).. even if the article wasn't about the game itself.

Any excuse to bash the "cool game to bash" at the time I guess.  There was very little TSW bashing at all until Suzie started doing articles and then the waves of negativity started coming in and destroying the forum.

Eventually the hateful mobs will move on to the next "cool game to bash" and the cycle will start again... but not until after the damage is already done.  The wonderful anonymous internet damage that nobody thinks about.

I don't see any storyline mode MMORPG having longevity without dedication to PVE endgame.

Originally posted by Dakirn

I'm not sure why I was hoping the OP's point would get across.. but I guess it's too late to stop the insanity of the pure hatred that exists here.  Just look at how many people felt the need to belittle the game in a public spotlight (even if they have never played it at release, don't plan on playing it or have no interest in it what so over).. even if the article wasn't about the game itself.

 Any excuse to bash the "cool game to bash" at the time I guess.  There was very little TSW bashing at all until Suzie started doing articles and then the waves of negativity started coming in and destroying the forum.

 Eventually the hateful mobs will move on to the next "cool game to bash" and the cycle will start again... but not until after the damage is already done.  The wonderful anonymous internet damage that nobody thinks about.

 

Agree. It's really sad. Thank you for saying it.

F2P i only evil when its pay to win, and much more evil when companies fail as P2P and make it freemium and force free players to buy content to progress further in game.

I would say to FunCom and other devs/publishers, keep the price on the box, remove the subscription, keep a decent and fresh cash shop AND stay away from the freemium model and free limitations.....

hopefully the success of GW2 will teach the greedy companies to look gamers as gamers, not as brainless zombies with full wallets.

edit: by buying content to progress further in game i dont mean expansion, i mean stop locking content that is already in game to free players

Originally posted by rojo6934

F2P i only evil when its pay to win, and much more evil when companies fail as P2P and make it freemium and force free players to buy content to progress further in game.

I would say to FunCom and other devs/publishers, keep the price on the box, remove the subscription, keep a decent and fresh cash shop AND stay away from the freemium model and free limitations.....

hopefully the success of GW2 will teach the greedy companies to look gamers as gamers, not as brainless zombies with full wallets.

 

edit: by buying content to progress further in game i dont mean expansion, i mean stop locking content that is already in game to free players

 

 

F2P is pay to win almost 100% of the time. There are some people who wouldn't mind buying purely aesthetic stuff for their characters/house/whatever in a game, but the vast majority of players won't give up so much as a penny for something that doesn't give them at least some kind of tactical or logistical benefit, and that is pay-to-win. It is simple, historical fact; that is human nature. Why pay something for errant decorative fluff in a game when it will have no real impact whatsoever in your ability to play?

Of course had nothing to do with the 10000's who said the animation system was atrocious 3 years ago and were assured it was simply a placeholder system.

If TSW had looked good from an animation perspective I and I'm sure the 10s of thousands of others who repeatedly raised this would have indeed purchased it, I enjoyed the rest of the game but I simply could not get past just how atrocious the combat system was as a visual user experience.

Originally posted by thamighty213

Of course had nothing to do with the 10000's who said the animation system was atrocious 3 years ago and were assured it was simply a placeholder system.

 

If TSW had looked good from an animation perspective I and I'm sure the 10s of thousands of others who repeatedly raised this would have indeed purchased it, I enjoyed the rest of the game but I simply could not get past just how atrocious the combat system was as a visual user experience.

 i agree with your brother

I considered buying it but decided not to, at least until there is a price drop.  There are just so many games out there to play.  Some of those games are very well done as well, but you can pick them up off of sites like Steam for rock bottom prices.  I picked up Mass Effect 2 for under $10 bucks and I'm still playing it.  After that it's Bio Shock and then Borderlands.  There's only so much time to play games after all....

Things that could persuade me?  

1) First 10 or so levels free so I can decide if I want to play it as much as they want me to buy it.  All mmo's should have this.  Perhaps have these players on a seperate server with the ability to transfer at time of purchase.  Just throwing out thoughts here...

2) House.  Give me a little space of my own, something to indulge my obsessive compulsive habits.  I want to decorate ( no hooks please, goodness I hate hooks ), display my trophies and store my junk.  

3) Better character aesthetics.  I've seen too many ugly TSW avatars.  More options, with the ability to change after character creation that is cheap or free.  

4)  I think now you (developers) really need to sell me on why I should buy your game over another game that is free, good, and more established offering more.  It's a dog eat dog world out here, give me what I want and I'll give you what you want.  Otherwise, I'm either picking up the Skyrim expansion or Deadspace 2 for $5.

Originally posted by Terranah

 

Things that could persuade me?  

1) First 10 or so levels free so I can decide if I want to play it as much as they want me to buy it.  

There is a 3 day free trial that can be extended by 2 days if you complete 30 missions. (not hard to do)

2) House.  Give me a little space of my own, something to indulge my obsessive compulsive habits. 

Instead of houses, you get clothing options.  Gloves, shirt, jacket, boots, hats, mix and match hundreds of pieces and colors as you want.  No one in the game looks the same.  There are vendors you can buy pieces from as well as tons you unlock by completeing accomplishments in the game (such as exploring an entire area or completing an entire section of the ability wheel).

3) Better character aesthetics. 

Coming on August 28th. You can change your apperance however you want for a small amount of PAX (in game currency).

4)  I think now you (developers) really need to sell me on why I should buy your game over another game that is free, good, and more established offering more.  It's a dog eat dog world out here, give me what I want and I'll give you what you want.  Otherwise, I'm either picking up the Skyrim expansion or Deadspace 2 for $5.

I'm totally with you.  I wait until a game is under 20$ before I get it usually.  I got TSW on release day though, and I fully feel its worth the full price.

 

For me, I generally don't even consider subscription games anymore.  There are too many alternatives and I'm not sure what the value of the subscription is.

Being a burnt out WoW player, I didn't get any value from the GMs.  It didn't appear to stop the gold seller spam.  It didn't clean up the racist comments in the gneral chat.  Both box and new content were still incredibly buggy ... shoudl we be paying for released content to be fixed to a reasonable production standard after the fact?

Like ToR, the sub model is dieing.  It made sense when people didn't know any better, but consumers are getting smarter and expecting more.  Maybe it's only $15/mo, but when $6 is pure profit for the company and new content is released very slowly and still buggy, maybe $15/mo is too much.

"A local game shop in the Philippines posted a picture on their Facebook page, and it said, “Don't judge a game by the reviews it gets. Play it. Experience it if it interests you.” While this is a nice marketing ploy to tell people to buy games, it's also a truthful way of being an informed consumer."

No, no and once again: no!

If MMOs offered trials early on, instead of long after most have left, then I would try just about any game I was curious about. The thing is, considering all the crappy shit released the last years, it's unlikely I'll ever going to buy a MMO at release.

This may not make me "an informed consumer", according to you, but I'd say that reading a lot of reviews usually gives a good inditcation. Not to mention, it saves me loads of money.

MMO sales around release is almost purely based on hype. And hype alone will never convince me to buy a game.