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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] The Secret World: A Complex Issue for Funcom

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131 posts found
  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

8/15/12 12:10:03 PM#21
Originally posted by Kuppa
The aricle was OK. But I could not stand your f2p rant, I just don't agree with it. You basically made the f2p transition look like the greatest evil that could happen to a game.

"Free to Play" IS the greatest evil that could happen to a game that was DESIGNED around PayToPlay.

 

PayToPlay demands higher quality than FreeToPlay games do, and the rise of "Sub + CashShop" is even further pushing the envelope for bad products. If your product is good, and you know it's good, you won't ask more than $15/month. EvE knows they're a "niche" product, but they also know that they're a damn good one for the niche that they're in so they only charge $15/month and give FREE expansions.

 

You think TSW would do $15/month + FREE expansions? Heck no, TSW isn't a quality enough product for full & true "PayToPlay". TSW was designed around the idea of immediate cash flow from P2P+CashShop+Boxes for the first year, and then a transition to "F2P" next year (or later this year) to sustain the product. Don't believe me? Wait a couple more months for the announcement. TSW is as themepark as an MMO can get, and linear themeparks have a hard time keeping content up to pace with even "Casual" gamers unless they cater to every age range & type of person like WoW has and are mega-huge-successful money wise.

 

If you build a game from scratch AROUND the concept of a "Cash Shop" then you can go the 'Free'-To-Play route because then you're never considered a failure like SWTOR, but you're also not a good product.

 

I've NEVER played a "F2P" product that was developed around the idea of "F2P" from the start that was worth a single dime. The only playable "F2P" titles out now were actually P2P failures that went F2P to keep from closing down, and they're the only "F2P" titles out now that are half-playable.

 

We need a different name for "Free To Play" as the word "Free" is wholefully misleading, and quite frankly "F2P" is a lie entirely, nothing is EVER free.

 

 

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Ahil6

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 12

8/15/12 12:10:45 PM#22

First and last time I will buy a lifetime sub for a game. Lesson learned.

:(

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2225

8/15/12 12:11:49 PM#23
NVM 
 

 

 
  Dominionlord

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 176

8/15/12 12:12:35 PM#24
Originally posted by Dakirn

This was a good article.

 

I'm so tired of hearing people wishing that a game will fail.. they don't even take into consideration what they're asking for.  They're asking for hundreds of employees to lose their jobs and ability to provide for their families.. simply because they don't "like" the game or have some deep set grudge against the company because of a game you played 5 years ago.

 

If you don't like a game, state your reasoning and move on.. don't spend your time bashing the game and wishing for failure.  It doesn't help the industry at all.

 

MMO developers have to be some of the most selfless people on the planet to work such long hours for very average pay to make a game that so many people end up hating, wishing for the failure or of wishing personal bodily harm to those who work on it.

 

It's sad to read so much, especially on this site.. especially in an industry where something "new" is rare.  Everyone wants a company to try something different and then hope for their failure at the same time.

+1

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/15/12 12:13:44 PM#25
Originally posted by BarCrow
So..whats to keep publishers (or whoever) from making "arrangements" with metacritic to report just shy of a bonus enducing score..leaving developers stiffed of deserved revenue (in the form of earned bonuses)  and the extra cash in the kept in the pockets of those less deserving?
 

Not a thing, reviewers get payed off all the time. Just look at the AoC and SWTOR scores.

  Athcear

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/19/09
Posts: 422

Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.

8/15/12 12:13:53 PM#26
I think we're getting to the point where it's silly to release a new MMO as purely subscription based.  It demands two things from a player then.  A big upfront monetary commitment (usually 50 or 60 dollars) and a big upfront time commitment (the month of play that comes with the game).  The frontloading of these requirements is a big turnoff.  I, like many others, am already playing my MMO of choice (in this case, LotRO).  My friends are there.  I don't know if I have enough time in the next 30 days to get enough out of a new MMO, since I would be playing it in the cracks around work, school, friends, social activities, and my current game.  I don't want to commit that much time and money to something that I may not get to use.  On the flip side, if it were adapted to a freemium style model that many games are now taking, I would have it installed right now and be playing it from time to time, and would likely happily shell out 5 dollars to unlock the next zone or whatever.  I played the free weekend and really liked the game.  But because I need to buy the game in 30 day chunks, and the first one will cost me 60 dollars, I'm going to pick that 30 day chunk very carefully, and it probably won't be until December or some such.

Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.

  Boraell

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/06
Posts: 83

8/15/12 12:16:24 PM#27

Personally I would stop playing if it went F2P, as would many of the gamers I know. I hate the whole cash shop and paid content scheme and the arrogant little chavs it attracts. People who havent invested into a game through either extensive time and effort or through a monthly sub seem to be less interested in maintaining a good public profile, e.g not acting like asshats or ninja's.

It used to be that if someone acted like a large majority do nowadays they would quickly be guildless and barred from all decent groups/raids.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/15/12 12:18:15 PM#28
Originally posted by Athcear
I think we're getting to the point where it's silly to release a new MMO as purely subscription based.

We've come to the point where it's silly to release a subscription based WoWclone/themepark game that focuses on solo content.

 

MMOs that rely on play oriented content and community still seem to do well without FTP. Reducing the upfront cost is smart though. But big publishers like Funcom try to get as much money out of hype and box sales before their game sinks.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1766

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

8/15/12 12:18:35 PM#29

Free to Play is a marketing term used to make money.

Didnt your mama's ever teach you that nothing is free in this world.

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  TalulaRose

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 451

8/15/12 12:19:05 PM#30
Originally posted by Boraell

Personally I would stop playing if it went F2P, as would many of the gamers I know. I hate the whole cash shop and paid content scheme and the arrogant little chavs it attracts. People who havent invested into a game through either extensive time and effort or through a monthly sub seem to be less interested in maintaining a good public profile, e.g not acting like asshats or ninja's.

It used to be that if someone acted like a large majority do nowadays they would quickly be guildless and barred from all decent groups/raids.

I hate the community that comes with F2P. I would definately run for the door if it happened.

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2225

8/15/12 12:22:32 PM#31
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by BarCrow
So..whats to keep publishers (or whoever) from making "arrangements" with metacritic to report just shy of a bonus enducing score..leaving developers stiffed of deserved revenue (in the form of earned bonuses)  and the extra cash in the kept in the pockets of those less deserving?
 

Not a thing, reviewers get payed off all the time. Just look at the AoC and SWTOR scores.

 

I get what you're saying but I'm talking about a publisher or producer or whatever ,conspiring with metacritic to short change the developer on any bonuses...thus keeping the extra cash for themselves. Oh well...its just conspiracy theory right now...just wondering if that happens.

  Athcear

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/19/09
Posts: 422

Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice.

8/15/12 12:26:01 PM#32
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
If you build a game from scratch AROUND the concept of a "Cash Shop" then you can go the 'Free'-To-Play route because then you're never considered a failure like SWTOR, but you're also not a good product.

 

I've NEVER played a "F2P" product that was developed around the idea of "F2P" from the start that was worth a single dime. The only playable "F2P" titles out now were actually P2P failures that went F2P to keep from closing down, and they're the only "F2P" titles out now that are half-playable.

This part is actually quite true.  Most of those cash shop based games are centered around getting you to buy stuff from the cash shop.  Games like Allods Online or Runes of Magic require huge investments in the cash shop later on.  But games that sell content in pieces, like Wizard 101, are far better.  The pay to play games that have gone freemium are still the better games.  As yet, designing a good game and marketing it via microtransactions is still a difficult goal to reach.  There are few good examples.  League of Legends and Wizard 101 are the only ones that come to mind.  They basically just have to make a solid game, and gate certain types of content.  Instead of buying access in blocks of time, you buy portions of the game.  Shallow grinder games, whether they are sub based or centered on microtransactions, will always suck.  And games that exist to exploit a payment model will also always suck.

Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.

  Gorilla

Old School

Joined: 6/07/04
Posts: 2218

8/15/12 12:28:31 PM#33

I too hate the F2P moniker, micro transactions works much better.

 

One of the problems is that even if you like the game, once you run through the 'main bit' there is not much to warrant paying a monthly sub IMHO.

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/15/12 12:30:50 PM#34
Originally posted by Gorilla

I too hate the F2P moniker, micro transactions works much better.

 

One of the problems is that even if you like the game, once you run through the 'main bit' there is not much to warrant paying a monthly sub IMHO.

This is the problem that comes up if you shoe horn a payment model meant for MMORPGs into games like TSW that are more like singleplayer games that have a solo oriented "main part" to burn through.

Subs worked when MMOs created communities, and had to pay for big servers to host everyone in the same area. Not so much now in the linear instanced solo "MM"ORPG genre.

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

8/15/12 12:31:04 PM#35
Originally posted by BarCrow
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by BarCrow
So..whats to keep publishers (or whoever) from making "arrangements" with metacritic to report just shy of a bonus enducing score..leaving developers stiffed of deserved revenue (in the form of earned bonuses)  and the extra cash in the kept in the pockets of those less deserving?
 

Not a thing, reviewers get payed off all the time. Just look at the AoC and SWTOR scores.

 

I get what you're saying but I'm talking about a publisher or producer or whatever ,conspiring with metacritic to short change the developer on any bonuses...thus keeping the extra cash for themselves. Oh well...its just conspiracy theory right now...just wondering if that happens.

It does, all the time. I've even heard of companies such as Activision paying Metacritic to give their competitors high reviews for poor products thereby generating a massive amount of hype that will inevitably crush their competitor's product into an unrecoverable sinkhole.

That's at least what I've been told by "Metacritic Insiders", but i'm of the opinion they might just be internet "Attention" seekers emailing me this stuff :|.

Although, the information I got from the same individuals suggests that EA-Bioware was going to pay all of the major review sites for glowing reviews based on user generated traffic on those reviews before the reviews were even up. Given all the 9stars and critics defending their scores for SWTOR I can only guess there might be some truth here?

 

Dunno, ~~~/goes back to work

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  TalulaRose

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 451

8/15/12 12:32:41 PM#36
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Dakirn

This was a good article.

 

I'm so tired of hearing people wishing that a game will fail.. they don't even take into consideration what they're asking for.  They're asking for hundreds of employees to lose their jobs and ability to provide for their families.. simply because they don't "like" the game or have some deep set grudge against the company because of a game you played 5 years ago.

 

If you don't like a game, state your reasoning and move on.. don't spend your time bashing the game and wishing for failure.  It doesn't help the industry at all.

 

MMO developers have to be some of the most selfless people on the planet to work such long hours for very average pay to make a game that so many people end up hating, wishing for the failure or of wishing personal bodily harm to those who work on it.

 

It's sad to read so much, especially on this site.. especially in an industry where something "new" is rare.  Everyone wants a company to try something different and then hope for their failure at the same time.

This site needs to start doing a better job at moderating its community. Most of the times its a band wagon mentlity of trashing a game for lolz.

Trashing a game because it's a bad game.

We hope for games to fail so that there's a positive change in the industry. Those developers will ultimately be the ones to suffer either way, so long as publishers that don't know what they're doing are dictating what the devs are making.

When I first came to this site I was like..this is amazing...now I can find a new MMO. Started reading the reviews...not bad......read the user comments and was......is any game worth playing? For the first few months I had the impression that 99%of the games listed on this site were trash. I thought this was strange and tried the games that interested me. 

Now I think that 99% of the user comments are trash.

 

  Tibernicus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/15/12
Posts: 437

8/15/12 12:37:03 PM#37
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Dakirn

This was a good article.

 

I'm so tired of hearing people wishing that a game will fail.. they don't even take into consideration what they're asking for.  They're asking for hundreds of employees to lose their jobs and ability to provide for their families.. simply because they don't "like" the game or have some deep set grudge against the company because of a game you played 5 years ago.

 

If you don't like a game, state your reasoning and move on.. don't spend your time bashing the game and wishing for failure.  It doesn't help the industry at all.

 

MMO developers have to be some of the most selfless people on the planet to work such long hours for very average pay to make a game that so many people end up hating, wishing for the failure or of wishing personal bodily harm to those who work on it.

 

It's sad to read so much, especially on this site.. especially in an industry where something "new" is rare.  Everyone wants a company to try something different and then hope for their failure at the same time.

This site needs to start doing a better job at moderating its community. Most of the times its a band wagon mentlity of trashing a game for lolz.

Trashing a game because it's a bad game.

We hope for games to fail so that there's a positive change in the industry. Those developers will ultimately be the ones to suffer either way, so long as publishers that don't know what they're doing are dictating what the devs are making.

When I first came to this site I was like..this is amazing...now I can find a new MMO. Started reading the reviews...not bad......read the user comments and was......is any game worth playing? For the first few months I had the impression that 99%of the games listed on this site were trash. I thought this was strange and tried the games that interested me. 

Now I think that 99% of the user comments are trash.

 

You're coming from a point of ignorance. What you deem as "trash" comments are usually made by Veteran MMORPG players who judge modern MMOs by the same standards as old MMOs. And compared to old MMOs, modern MMOs are SEVERELY lacking in the features that make an MMO an MMO. Most are shallow, uninspired, generic, and boring. But to someone new to the genre, they may be enticed for a time.

  User Deleted
8/15/12 12:48:40 PM#38
Originally posted by Kuppa
The aricle was OK. But I could not stand your f2p rant, I just don't agree with it. You basically made the f2p transition look like the greatest evil that could happen to a game.

Traditionally F2P is lower quality and for those that get into the game, end up paying more for an MMO.  I present exhibit A) Allods Online.

Also, I just don't agree with you.  He didn't say all F2P models do that, he said there was a potential for that to happen - thanks to investor pressure.  And he's right.

  Asamof

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 740

8/15/12 12:48:56 PM#39
tragic, TSW is the only story based MMO I've played that's actually does the story part really well
  User Deleted
8/15/12 12:55:31 PM#40
Originally posted by Tibernicus
 

You're coming from a point of ignorance. What you deem as "trash" comments are usually made by Veteran MMORPG players who judge modern MMOs by the same standards as old MMOs. And compared to old MMOs, modern MMOs are SEVERELY lacking in the features that make an MMO an MMO. Most are shallow, uninspired, generic, and boring. But to someone new to the genre, they may be enticed for a time.

 

And you coming from a point of jaded elitism honestly.  When you trash a game or pile on - you are affecting other peoples' lives.  The problem for me isn't when a game deserves it, but can you honestly say that TSW deserves to cease to exist, as well as the company that made it.  Has Funcom done such a horrible job that everyone should lose their jobs?  Only one game got me to that point, FF14.  And people were fired and Square Enix is fixing it now.  Will I go back?  No I won't.  Will I wish for the demise of FF14 or Square Enix because of it?  Nope.  I wish them well.  TSW problems has more to do with Funcom and Age of Conan, than anything else.  The journalists couldn't let it go and fans burned from before couldn't either.  

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