Originally posted by Latella

It creeps me how some of the "anti-raid crowd" obviously and viciously enjoy how traditional raiders are "left out" from gw2, but not because they actually get to enjoy all the content but rather by the simple fact the raider community gets to "suffer"

 

Funny, but we don't go to WoW forums and demand they take raiding out...    Or claim the MMO is a failure because it has that horrible, hamster-wheel, casino-like gear-grind...   But I do see them complaining and demandiing buffs for this, that and the other thing while others attack them and the PvPers chime in on how it will destroy their precious PvP 'balance.'

As far as the acerbic reactions go, they are more in a response to the hard-core raiders making an unsupported argument that without their particual gaming fetish being the primary 'end game' occupation the game will fail.  PvPers, btw, make the same truth claim about PvP.   And it is clearl that both of these mutually exclusive truth-claims can't be right.   Which then allows those who aren't emotionally invested to understand that both are, by-and-large, false and over-stated claims. 

And that's what so many of us get tired of...    Over-arching, aggressive proclimations that there is something wrong because their narrow interested aren't catered.   For SOME gamers, lack of the traditional, reward-gated, once-a-week raid will be an issue that they MAY not be able to over-come.   But it will be a MINORITY since, as a group, they're already a minority.

OTOH, there is a significant majority of gamers (comprised of many significant minorities in game play) that have been taken for granted for a very long time and that is finally getting some respect and attention.    When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with solid exploration released?  When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with stories you can actually influence the story (not control, but some influence on path) was released?    When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with puzzles and what-not released?

And those people are happy.  Yet here come the PvPers and the Raiders to constantly crap on their parade.

So you tell me, why not a little schadenfreude?    Is it really so bad to laugh at the people who have been ****ing on the parade of those who are FINALLY getting their needs even half-way addressed in a AAA MMO now that the tables have turned a bit?   I, personally, don't think so.

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by Latella

It creeps me how some of the "anti-raid crowd" obviously and viciously enjoy how traditional raiders are "left out" from gw2, but not because they actually get to enjoy all the content but rather by the simple fact the raider community gets to "suffer"

 

 

Funny, but we don't go to WoW forums and demand they take raiding out...    Or claim the MMO is a failure because it has that horrible, hamster-wheel, casino-like gear-grind...   But I do see them complaining and demandiing buffs for this, that and the other thing while others attack them and the PvPers chime in on how it will destroy their precious PvP 'balance.'

 

As far as the acerbic reactions go, they are more in a response to the hard-core raiders making an unsupported argument that without their particual gaming fetish being the primary 'end game' occupation the game will fail.  PvPers, btw, make the same truth claim about PvP.   And it is clearl that both of these mutually exclusive truth-claims can't be right.   Which then allows those who aren't emotionally invested to understand that both are, by-and-large, false and over-stated claims. 

 

And that's what so many of us get tired of...    Over-arching, aggressive proclimations that there is something wrong because their narrow interested aren't catered.   For SOME gamers, lack of the traditional, reward-gated, once-a-week raid will be an issue that they MAY not be able to over-come.   But it will be a MINORITY since, as a group, they're already a minority.

 

OTOH, there is a significant majority of gamers (comprised of many significant minorities in game play) that have been taken for granted for a very long time and that is finally getting some respect and attention.    When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with solid exploration released?  When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with stories you can actually influence the story (not control, but some influence on path) was released?    When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with puzzles and what-not released?

 

And those people are happy.  Yet here come the PvPers and the Raiders to constantly crap on their parade.

 

So you tell me, why not a little schadenfreude?    Is it really so bad to laugh at the people who have been ****ing on the parade of those who are FINALLY getting their needs even half-way addressed in a AAA MMO now that the tables have turned a bit?   I, personally, don't think so.

 

 

 

 

Wow... I think you may need a few minutes to gather yourself. All this post did was confirm that YOU don't want raids because you're bitter and angry.

Why not? having Raids in GW2 is a GREAT thing!!!!!!!

Losing a cornerstone of good PvE is unlikely to be 'a great thing'. But if the content the OP mentions is as good as he recons then I can see his point. I applaud GW2 for trying something new, but it is perfectly reasonable for posters to be sceptical that this content will be as good as raids. I wonder could we have some videos to show us how good this end game group content is?

GW2 doesn't have raids, thats that

Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.

Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.

Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.

Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.

There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.

To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.

Originally posted by 1carcarah1
Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?

Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.

Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.

Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.

Originally posted by Lucioon

GW2 doesn't have raids, thats that

Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.

Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.

Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.

Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.

There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.

To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.

 

It has raids just not the "Normal" raids. There will be content that requires more then a single group to beat which is a "Raid". 

Any content that takes more then a group to beat is a "Raid".   That is reality but most do not think that way, most do not have an open mind.

So will Guild Wars 2 have raid zones like other MMOs? No.  Will it have raid content?  Yes.  WvWvW will be raid content as well as it will take more then a single group to capture and hold keeps.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 1carcarah1
Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?

Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.

Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.

Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.

I miss those days where collecting gear is NOT the whole point of playing. Back then you would wear a piece of gear for 5-10 levels there's no such bullshit as gearscore and item level. You would upgrade your equipment maybe once or twice per month and that's considered plenty. Games back then were truly fun. Personally I'm glad they eschew the idea of  a private raid dungeons for a more social and public experience such as defeating a public raid boss. Everyone who participated gets rewarded with something.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Lucioon

GW2 doesn't have raids, thats that

Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.

Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.

Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.

Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.

There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.

To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.

 

It has raids just not the "Normal" raids. There will be content that requires more then a single group to beat which is a "Raid". 

Any content that takes more then a group to beat is a "Raid".   That is reality but most do not think that way, most do not have an open mind.

So will Guild Wars 2 have raid zones like other MMOs? No.  Will it have raid content?  Yes.  WvWvW will be raid content as well as it will take more then a single group to capture and hold keeps.

Its just semantics.

If i enjoy GW2 and I find it fun ( which from my BWE experience I DO) Then GW2 is a game for me.

If I don't enjoy GW2 then I won't be playing it much, regardless of if it has Raids or Not.

LOTRO, WOW, EQ, EQ2 all these have raids, but I am not playing them, because I don't find the game itself fun for me.

In General, regardless of whether a game has raids or not, it all depends on whether or not people find what they want in the game itself. If you find that one " IT" that you want, you will play GW2, if you don't find the " IT" then you won't enjoy it even if it has Raids, most likely you won't even touch the raids if you didn't like the game.

Unless there are people that don't care if they enjoy the game or not, or whether or not its fun for them and only play if there are Raids in them, then these people are beyond my abilities.

I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?

Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).

---

Originally posted by Purutzil
Denying a certain type of content to players is a TERRIBLE thing.

There are very few times when this isn't true. Not having raids ultimately denies players 1 more thing to do.

 

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't nessisarily need it, but your arguement is basically "I don't like it so its great" which is like having a candy store and not selling any chocolate because you don't like it. Sure you still got a candy store and you aren't missing out on it, but a lot of other people are.

---

Originally posted by trenshod

I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?

Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).

You should explore, farm achievments and cosmetic stuff. Or try some insane jumping puzzles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TovL15CZqd4

But you like instanced content, there's 8 hardmode dungeons where you wont faceroll by getting better gear

Originally posted by trenshod

I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?

Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).

Never had an issue in GW1 of finding things to do. I then played AoC and really the only "end game" things to do was raid for gear or PvP it felt very limited.  Which I found strange from a company that made AO but that was an older game that went more by the older philosophy. To be honest AO has many cool encounters that very few people did and even then they weren't done very often. 

What is a raid anyway? A dungeon with gear progression to do over and over again. There is a social aspect to it which can be fun but seems to get more and more political over time as the previous raids gear is needed for the new raid. DKP comes into play, don't miss a day, don't screw up once, .... To me it turns into a job not a game.

It really seems like there are two things that GW2 lacks for the "hardcore" raiders -  1. gear progression 2. instanced dungeons that require a large group. ( An optional 3 - the holy trinity) 

Gear progress is a Skinners Box it really doesn't really supply a lot of fun.

This leaves us with large group instanced dungeons. They can be fun but are they really necessary for an MMO. For GW2 they are saying no but, as has been said, there are open world encounters that scratch some of this itch. 

Originally posted by rpg123
How is a metaevent like the Shatterer not considered a raid? If you want to take down big mofos in GW2, you can. Orr will probably have a butt load of em.

I kinda considered killing those humongous creatures with as many people as you wanted as well as "raiding". I guess nobody else but us see it as raiding. But they apparently refer to the older genre's raiding type.

Anyway, it appears that not having raids in GW2(as the OP stated) isn't such a great thing since there's a pretty big discussion here. Who knows what may be implemented in the future, adding raids in the game couldn't hurt anyone and it would please the raiding-group. But in all honesty... won't you have enough of other stuff to do in GW2 (for a while) without the old raiding system?

Originally posted by Liddokun

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 1carcarah1
Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?

Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.

Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.

Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.

I miss those days where collecting gear is NOT the whole point of playing. Back then you would wear a piece of gear for 5-10 levels there's no such bullshit as gearscore and item level. You would upgrade your equipment maybe once or twice per month and that's considered plenty. Games back then were truly fun. Personally I'm glad they eschew the idea of  a private raid dungeons for a more social and public experience such as defeating a public raid boss. Everyone who participated gets rewarded with something.

Yes I miss those days too. My Necromancer got a ring at lvl 50 that I still had equiped at lvl 80 when I left the game.  I miss games like that.  That ring had meaning, I can tell you the story of how I got it to this day and I will never forget it.  I could not even tell you the places I got half of my WoW or AoC gear, it didnt matter I could upgrade it within the week.

Back on topic.

Raiding will be in Guild Wars 2.  Like my other post said, any content that takes more then a single group to beat is a "Raid" event.   I for one will not miss raid zones where your guild had s certain day each week to clear said zone.

Open world events are not Raids.  Raids are coordinated group efforts.  Have 30 people zerg a random encounter or fort is no where near as fulfilling as strategizing a kill.

You can't get your guild together and say, "ok mates, today we kill 'X'".   Because once you get to that location, the boss will probably not be there.  Even so, you have to be close to the boss location just to find that out.  Boss encounters are on the fly and for zergs.

It's missing the strategy, coordination, studying, and preplanned tactics that PvE'rs go for.  In WvW, the times I tried to join I was constantly que'd.  That will also make it difficult to get a group of 30 into.